UFC gambles on untested Lesnar

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2008-01-25 06:30pm

The Lesnar connection means I'm actually goning to want to watch this one. UFC usually bored me, If i want to see two beefcakes hug I'll go download some gay porn.

Joker · Post by **Joker** » 2008-01-25 08:06pm

TheFeniX wrote:Zadius is pretty much on the money.

You also have to factor in "Golden Boys." Fighters like Kimbo Slice. Sure, the guy might have a great career in MMA, but EliteXC seems to be scared about putting him up against any fighter that could be labeled something other than "Punching Bag." His next fight is against Tank Abbot. Sure, Abbot was a mean fighter back before the sport was rounded out, but wasn't he like 0-8 this year (or something around that)?

And even losing to top-tier fighters isn't a big mark against a fighter, depending on how the fight went. Like most sports it's not cut and dry. There's numerous different rankings for each weight class and even more arguments about how they are ranked and who is ranked where.

But, MMA has a lot more upsets than many other fighting organizations (from what I've seen). No matter how tough you are, getting hit solid on the chin or the ear is likely to put you out with those measly 4 oz. gloves they use. Sure, the same thing can happen in boxing, but those 16 oz gloves are much more forgiving.

I will remind you of this later. Much later.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2008-01-26 08:06pm

So you're gonna add necromancy to the list of eventual charges against you? Go lick an 18 Volt battery you useless cockminge.

TheFeniX · Post by **TheFeniX** » 2008-01-27 01:46am

NeoGoomba wrote:If I remember Abbot from 90's UFC fights, his style could have been summed up as "Keep Punching at Head-Fu". I'm not surprised that he's crashing and burning now.

You're about right on. If a fighter can withstand Abbot's first 15-30 second onslaught, he's almost guaranteed a victory because Tank gasses after just throwing wild punches and hoping for a quick knock-out. I'd call his ground-game pathetic, but that would even be admitting he has spent time working on it.

Lord Pounder wrote:The Lesnar connection means I'm actually goning to want to watch this one. UFC usually bored me, If i want to see two beefcakes hug I'll go download some gay porn.

This confuses me: how is wrestling (a sport where the whole point is to "hug" the other guy and submit him by laying on top of him for X amount of time for a win) less boring and homoerotic than a sport where it's most popular fighters are known for pounding other fighter's faces in? Your "lay and pray" fighters just don't last long in the UFC (or maybe they do, but no one cares to remember their names), but the fighters that even casual fans remember are generally those known for knock-outs.

I'm not mocking your assertion: I'd really like to know.

I'm not really concerned with the fact that Lesner is a Pro Wrestler. That only tells me the man probably has good conditioning as those guys may be acting, but they go at it for extended periods of time. I'm hoping he's taking this as seriously as he should be, because I don't care where a fighter comes from as long as he's putting in the time to become an actual MMA fighter and not just some "freak show" to score a few fans.

Watching a guy like Fedor waste his time fighting Hong Man Choi was just annoying as Hell, and I'm hoping (and from what I've seen, I may be right) Lesner will actually be a force in the UFC and not just some name to be trotted out in order to sell some tickets.

Joker wrote:I will remind you of this later. Much later.

You do that.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2008-01-27 05:10pm

This confuses me: how is wrestling (a sport where the whole point is to "hug" the other guy and submit him by laying on top of him for X amount of time for a win) less boring and homoerotic than a sport where it's most popular fighters are known for pounding other fighter's faces in? Your "lay and pray" fighters just don't last long in the UFC (or maybe they do, but no one cares to remember their names), but the fighters that even casual fans remember are generally those known for knock-outs.

I'm not mocking your assertion: I'd really like to know.

I like the rapid action of WWE and TNA. The holy shit moments of an athletic moves. I watched UFC a few times after Ken Shamrock first came to WWE and was unimpressed, maybe they didn't show the best matches, but it didn't impress me. When I watch pro wrestling it's a rare occasion for me to put my brain in neutral and enjoy the pretty lights.

Post by **weemadando** » 2008-01-27 05:27pm

Lord Pounder wrote:
This confuses me: how is wrestling (a sport where the whole point is to "hug" the other guy and submit him by laying on top of him for X amount of time for a win) less boring and homoerotic than a sport where it's most popular fighters are known for pounding other fighter's faces in? Your "lay and pray" fighters just don't last long in the UFC (or maybe they do, but no one cares to remember their names), but the fighters that even casual fans remember are generally those known for knock-outs.

I'm not mocking your assertion: I'd really like to know.
I like the rapid action of WWE and TNA. The holy shit moments of an athletic moves. I watched UFC a few times after Ken Shamrock first came to WWE and was unimpressed, maybe they didn't show the best matches, but it didn't impress me. When I watch pro wrestling it's a rare occasion for me to put my brain in neutral and enjoy the pretty lights.

The UFC back when Shamrock first moved to the WWF was a VERY different animal to what it is today.

Back then it was still very disparate groups of styles usually mis-matched. It is now a much more rounded sport and much more interesting to watch.

To be fair - I'd say it probably all got turned on its head the first time Vitor Belfort decided to go all Lumberjack on someone.

Joker · Post by **Joker** » 2008-01-27 07:14pm

weemadando wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:
This confuses me: how is wrestling (a sport where the whole point is to "hug" the other guy and submit him by laying on top of him for X amount of time for a win) less boring and homoerotic than a sport where it's most popular fighters are known for pounding other fighter's faces in? Your "lay and pray" fighters just don't last long in the UFC (or maybe they do, but no one cares to remember their names), but the fighters that even casual fans remember are generally those known for knock-outs.

I'm not mocking your assertion: I'd really like to know.
I like the rapid action of WWE and TNA. The holy shit moments of an athletic moves. I watched UFC a few times after Ken Shamrock first came to WWE and was unimpressed, maybe they didn't show the best matches, but it didn't impress me. When I watch pro wrestling it's a rare occasion for me to put my brain in neutral and enjoy the pretty lights.
The UFC back when Shamrock first moved to the WWF was a VERY different animal to what it is today.

Back then it was still very disparate groups of styles usually mis-matched. It is now a much more rounded sport and much more interesting to watch.

To be fair - I'd say it probably all got turned on its head the first time Vitor Belfort decided to go all Lumberjack on someone.

From what I've seen, the UFC was started by Rorion Gracie and some other guys. His brother did a style of ju-jitsu unknown to most of the earlier combatants.

Vitor was a Gracie black belt but was a better striker than most. That is a very valid point. But before Vitor there was Marco Ruas. He had a combo of ju jitsu and striking. Bas Rutten also had this.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-01-27 07:29pm

The UFC and other such organizations, when they first started, were every kids fantasy of "Who could beat who" what ifs come to life. Karate VS Boxing, Ju-Jitsu VS Wrestling. Kickboxing VS Streetfighting. It put to the test the old "Oh, well he can do that in a dojo, but he couldn't do it in a real fight on the street". And it was cool.

Over the years though the sport has evolved. The people that only had one specific fighting style got phased out, and to survive you had to adapt the best qualities of all the styles, but as with all things physical... it still boils down to who is bigger, stronger and faster.

That being said, if Lesnar can take punches, and I have a feeling he can, he should do pretty well against anyone.

Joker · Post by **Joker** » 2008-01-27 08:05pm

havokeff wrote:The UFC and other such organizations, when they first started, were every kids fantasy of "Who could beat who" what ifs come to life. Karate VS Boxing, Ju-Jitsu VS Wrestling. Kickboxing VS Streetfighting. It put to the test the old "Oh, well he can do that in a dojo, but he couldn't do it in a real fight on the street". And it was cool.

Over the years though the sport has evolved. The people that only had one specific fighting style got phased out, and to survive you had to adapt the best qualities of all the styles, but as with all things physical... it still boils down to who is bigger, stronger and faster.

That being said, if Lesnar can take punches, and I have a feeling he can, he should do pretty well against anyone.

Watch this fight between Sapp vs Cro Cop!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNMgevrH8EI

It's not the UFC but Cro Cop is much smaller.

It's still style vs style.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-01-27 08:17pm

Joker wrote:
havokeff wrote:The UFC and other such organizations, when they first started, were every kids fantasy of "Who could beat who" what ifs come to life. Karate VS Boxing, Ju-Jitsu VS Wrestling. Kickboxing VS Streetfighting. It put to the test the old "Oh, well he can do that in a dojo, but he couldn't do it in a real fight on the street". And it was cool.

Over the years though the sport has evolved. The people that only had one specific fighting style got phased out, and to survive you had to adapt the best qualities of all the styles, but as with all things physical... it still boils down to who is bigger, stronger and faster.

That being said, if Lesnar can take punches, and I have a feeling he can, he should do pretty well against anyone.
Watch this fight between Sapp vs Cro Cop!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNMgevrH8EI

It's not the UFC but Cro Cop is much smaller.

It's still style vs style.

Uh... No. A left hook that lands on the jaw is not a "style". It is a solid hit in just the right spot.

I'm not saying that bigger faster stronger = automatic win, but it is always better to be bigger faster and stronger.

It's like they say "That's why you play the game" It's not academic.

But hey, at least you are up to making four sentence posts. maybe we will see an actual paragraph or even more one day.

TheFeniX · Post by **TheFeniX** » 2008-01-27 10:52pm

Lord Pounder wrote:I like the rapid action of WWE and TNA. The holy shit moments of an athletic moves. I watched UFC a few times after Ken Shamrock first came to WWE and was unimpressed, maybe they didn't show the best matches, but it didn't impress me. When I watch pro wrestling it's a rare occasion for me to put my brain in neutral and enjoy the pretty lights.

Ok, I understand now and I'm not about to argue with you on that. The UFC went through a pretty rough spot back in those days and the quality of the fights suffered for it.

Joker · Post by **Joker** » 2008-01-28 09:05am

havokeff wrote:
Joker wrote:
havokeff wrote:The UFC and other such organizations, when they first started, were every kids fantasy of "Who could beat who" what ifs come to life. Karate VS Boxing, Ju-Jitsu VS Wrestling. Kickboxing VS Streetfighting. It put to the test the old "Oh, well he can do that in a dojo, but he couldn't do it in a real fight on the street". And it was cool.

Over the years though the sport has evolved. The people that only had one specific fighting style got phased out, and to survive you had to adapt the best qualities of all the styles, but as with all things physical... it still boils down to who is bigger, stronger and faster.

That being said, if Lesnar can take punches, and I have a feeling he can, he should do pretty well against anyone.
Watch this fight between Sapp vs Cro Cop!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNMgevrH8EI

It's not the UFC but Cro Cop is much smaller.

It's still style vs style.
Uh... No. A left hook that lands on the jaw is not a "style". It is a solid hit in just the right spot.

I'm not saying that bigger faster stronger = automatic win, but it is always better to be bigger faster and stronger.

It's like they say "That's why you play the game" It's not academic.

But hey, at least you are up to making four sentence posts. maybe we will see an actual paragraph or even more one day.

I've never seen a left hook in Tai Qwon Do or Brazillian Ju Jitsu? The left hook is part of Cro Cop's stand-up style. The combatants have began to mix styles now like Bruce Lee did back in the day. Cro Cop was Russian military so he was introduced to mixed styles from day one of training.

I was probably a little wrong with "it's still style vs style" because like you just said 'The people that only had one specific fighting style got phased out, and to survive you had to adapt the best qualities of all the styles'.

I do agree that being bigger/faster/stronger is an advantage for the fighter.

It's funny I never thought I'd like combat sports so much. I always just thought it was a blood sport. It's a whole lifestyle for most of these people.

Zadius · Post by **Zadius** » 2008-01-28 11:45am

weemadando wrote:The UFC back when Shamrock first moved to the WWF was a VERY different animal to what it is today.

Yeah, I have to agree with this. The fighters are so much more talented today and well-rounded.

For anyone who wants to know what MMA is all about, I'd recommend watching this awesome highlight reel. This is the best highlight vid I've seen.

Joker · Post by **Joker** » 2008-01-28 01:02pm

I like the way they showed the guys when they just lost or were vulnerable. Alot of them had the look of despair in there eyes and faces. I believe that the black guy with blond hair beating the stuffing out of Cro Cop was either Rampage or Kevin Randleman. I'm gonna have to look that up on Sherdog now.

Does anyone know of any MMA websites that are as good as Sherdog? I don't want to join any forums but I do like reading about this sport.

Zadius · Post by **Zadius** » 2008-01-28 01:47pm

Joker wrote:I like the way they showed the guys when they just lost or were vulnerable. Alot of them had the look of despair in there eyes and faces. I believe that the black guy with blond hair beating the stuffing out of Cro Cop was either Rampage or Kevin Randleman. I'm gonna have to look that up on Sherdog now.

That was Randleman. It's one of the most shocking endings in MMA history, because it was the wrestler knocking out the kickboxer.

Does anyone know of any MMA websites that are as good as Sherdog? I don't want to join any forums but I do like reading about this sport.

MMAWeekly.com.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2008-01-28 03:23pm

Its a shame that UFC is now trying to get more "mainstream". It means we probably won't get any more fun gimmicks like Superfights or David vs. Goliath matches. Even the tournament format that UFC used to have is gone (although I THINK Pride still uses it, could be wrong since I haven't seen a Pride or K1 match in a few years and I'm too lazy to Google it)

And I will admit, even though I can't stand Ken Shamrock anymore, back in the 90's I loved his wars with Severn and Gracie.

Zadius · Post by **Zadius** » 2008-01-28 05:00pm

NeoGoomba wrote:Its a shame that UFC is now trying to get more "mainstream". It means we probably won't get any more fun gimmicks like Superfights or David vs. Goliath matches. Even the tournament format that UFC used to have is gone

The state athletic commissions would never allow such matches. Well, they may allow one-night tournaments. Strikeforce was able to get a 4-man tournament sanctioned recently.

(although I THINK Pride still uses it, could be wrong since I haven't seen a Pride or K1 match in a few years and I'm too lazy to Google it)

Hate to break it to you, but Pride is defunct. They did do tournaments up until the end, and K-1 still does them.

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2008-02-03 01:21am

So, did he win? Or did he get a major beatdown?

Nevermind, Lesnar lost after 90 seconds on a submission.

Zadius · Post by **Zadius** » 2008-02-03 01:49am

Enigma wrote:So, did he win? Or did he get a major beatdown?

Nevermind, Lesnar lost after 90 seconds on a submission.

Yep, Mir won via knee-bar. Brock showed some potential, but his submission defense wasn't good enough.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2008-02-03 01:51am

I didn't watch the fight, but from reading a summary Lesnar wasn't too bad out there. He got a couple of quick take downs on Mir and pounded on him (having to be pulled off by the ref for illegal blows to the back of the head). Then he slipped up and Mir got the submission.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2008-02-03 01:18pm

Brock went in only thinking punch to the head it was horrible, he needs to know how to finish better. He was way too confident that he was invincible and kept punching even while Mir was constantly trying to get an arm trapped for a triangle.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2008-02-03 03:08pm

Saw the fight, tons of people on the MMA boards are crying about the stoppage & stand-up after Brock repeatedly hammerfisted Mir in the back of the head. The point deduction was BS, but there was nothing wrong with standing up both fighters after the foul. The knee bar was sweet, but frankly any decent fighter would've seen it coming from a mile away, Frank had Lesnar's leg hooked but not trapped for several seconds before he rolled through to take Brock down and transitioned to the knee-bar.

But more importantly, Nogueira got a sweet guillotine on Sylvia and made him tap out. The setup was beautiful, Nog pulls half guard on Tim, sweeps him and gets side control making Tim panic & scramble, then locks on the guillotine in full guard for the finish.

Post by **weemadando** » 2008-02-04 01:34am

Fucking hell, Lesnar was shit.

His gameplan appeared to be:
"Hurrr. Me be on top. Hammerfist!"

The look of "what the fuck is this" when Mir started to wrap up the knee from guard was good. Watching Brock try to hop away about 5 seconds too late was better. Watching Brock tap out, but trying to make it look like a manly tap out, that was best.

The point deduction was valid, Lesnar wasn't even looking at how he was swinging, reckless strikes hitting the back of the head should be a point deduction.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2008-02-04 10:25pm

weemadando wrote:Fucking hell, Lesnar was shit.

His gameplan appeared to be:
"Hurrr. Me be on top. Hammerfist!"

I was reminded a lot of Tank Abbott, Lesnar basically just bullrushed Mir and swung wildly for headshots. There wasn't much technique, both of them just charged straight at their opponents while firing off headshots as fast as they could.