Good Sci-Fi involving SPACE Fleet Battles (all forms)

[Warsie]

If we're talking about books as well, I'd like to recommend De Imperatoribus Galacticis by Her Grace.

The Grand Fleet's arrival still gives me the shivers.

can you show me the exact post, or the like?

[Elessar]

can you show me the exact post, or the like?

While I wouldn't recommend skipping about, memorable battles begin in the second chapter and doesn't really slow down for a while. Second Coruscant begins shortly into the fifth chapter, and there's many other battles throughout. All of this is linked, and the rest can be found with a search on the board.

But again, I'd recommend reading this from start to finish. It's worth the time.

[Warsie]

can you show me the exact post, or the like?

While I wouldn't recommend skipping about, memorable battles begin in the second chapter and doesn't really slow down for a while. Second Coruscant begins shortly into the fifth chapter, and there's many other battles throughout. All of this is linked, and the rest can be found with a search on the board.

But again, I'd recommend reading this from start to finish. It's worth the time.

okay.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Stargate SG1 (most of the later seasons), as both series have a lot of space battles. NeoBSG has a few space battles, but most of them are anemic or annoying, with maybe one spectacular battle per season/boxed set.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I don't know what SG-1 you watched, but nBSG blows everything SG-1 had out of the water. Apart from maybe one or two fairly involved affairs with the Ori in season 9 and 10, and maybe "Lost City" in season 7 if that counts, SG-1 has never had any space battles to write home about. BSG's are much more visceral, intricate, and IMO interesting, even the "Galactica runs into a basestar, jumps away just in time!!!! D:" shit.

I watched the SG1 that had MacGyver in it. That's not the one you watched?

I really enjoyed a lot of the "Anubis and/or Baal against all comers" battles quite a bit, especially when they involved Lord Yu. For me, the space battle is as much about the epic-ness of the confrontation and the implications of the battle rather than strictly the eye candy. Granted, the eye candy is very important, but it eye candy alone did not make ST Nemesis watchable, nor did its lack ruin much of SG1's battles. Plus I actually got shivers while watching Lost City because the story had brought me into the intensity. It may not be plausible or even sensible, but it was damn fun. NeoBSG has never had anywhere near as much of an impact.

Heck, I'll flat out disagree with your characterization of BSG as "visceral". I think you're confusing drum beats for actual intensity, or maybe you just like Starbuck wank. The miniseries battle was pretty flat and almost the entire battle happened offscreen. The only other major BSG battle that I can even recall (thus qualifying as "memorable") was the battle of New Iraq--er New Caprica, and that consisted of exactly one badass maneuver followed by Lee Adama wasting the fleet's greatest asset in a way that would make Riker blush. And while the effects were shiny, I got pretty much all of the ship-ramming lulz I ever needed from Hiroshi in Severed Dreams. I'll pass on NeoBSG's space battles. Of Course, now that I've vented, if you'd asked me a season ago, I probably would have gushed on and on about how great NeoBSG is, so I suppose I'll concede the issue.

And I haven't yet seen all of the Ori episodes, so I have no idea how disappointed I'll be.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

The Final Reflection[/i], the great Star Trek novel by John M. Ford has several excellent space battles between pre TOS starships.

I don't recall any space battles in that book, just a lot of chess-like positioning and tactical analysis. Also, the book's Klingons are all chess nerds.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

hmm no one said Farscape, and Serenity had a decent space battle.
Independence Day had lots of ships blowing eachother up.

David Weber's "Armageddon Inheritance (The sequel to Mutineer's moon) had a lot o well written space battles.

if you can get a copy, the fake movie "Star Wrek: In the pirkinning" had a lot of eye candy.

Babyllon 5 really owns them all in terms o combining scale, soundtrack, melee and plot, the only problem is the CGI i starting to look a bit dated

Yes. To all of this. Especially the Star Wreck.

Also, if Serenity counts as a space battle, then I nominate Godzilla Final Wars. Hear me out, now. I may have blown my credibility by backing SG1, but I do have some reasoning on my side.

You see, the battle in Serenity is really only a few second of footage wherein the camera follows the Serenity and just happens to catch an awesome space battle in the background. It's like saying that ROTS had a space battle in it even though the "battle" was practically just a cgi matte painting for the buzzdroids and Obi Wan to act against. In a similar vein, the final battle in Godzilla final wars, consisting of a flying submarine with drill-laser and fighter escorts taking on a space egg and its drones, can be considered a space battle since the planet earth and all of its physics played no role in the battle except as a colorful backdrop. It was a space battle that just happened to be in an atmosphere while some giant monsters were fighting, and it was superior to the battle in ROTS in every way. I'm pretty sure it's not just the lack of sleep talking.

[Uraniun235]

Even neoBSG fell into the trap of very clearly contrived battles and outcomes.

The Captain's Hand was a decent battle, but the mechanism used to kill off the Commander was really clumsy. Why doesn't Pegasus have any pressure suits, or even just some bloody breathing apparatus, for the damage control teams to use in critical areas of the ship that may be exposed to vacuum through combat damage? Why doesn't anyone else even try to go in to help the Commander when the survival of the entire ship rests on getting the FTL drive back online? The episode was calculated to leave Apollo in command.

Exodus was very, very blatantly calculated to result in getting rid of Pegasus; there was probably no more graceful exit plan for Pegasus than that because the producers hadn't even originally planned on bringing Pegasus and Admiral Cain in.

A Measure of Salvation was horrible. Why did they even launch Vipers? Why did they not immediately start spooling the FTL drive once the Raiders had popped in? Why wasn't someone standing right next to the cell ready to pull the trigger so that the instant the Cylon fleet jumped in en masse, the infected Cylons could be executed and Galactica could immediately jump away before wasting a ton of fighter fuel and ammunition and risking invaluable pilots? The answer, of course, is that the writers flinched, and pushed The Reset Button; so we get to have a contrived fight scene play out while Apollo discovers the fruits of Helo's Brave Act To Save Humanity's Soul.

(That episode still disgusts me. On the one hand, they should have been able to pull off the plan if not for sheer writer fiat. On the other hand, actual diseases that Doc Cottle can detect and that humans have immunity to that are somehow magically transmitted into the new Cylon body along with the consciousness is totally retarded. But it still disgusts me that the writers took the laziest way out and simply made Helo the Smug-Ass Lip-Biting Champion Of Good And Justice. Fuck Helo, seriously.)

[Darth Wong]

You will NEVER see an intelligent space fleet battle in sci-fi, for the simple reason that for dramatic purposes, directors will always want to bunch up ships so they're really close together. That way, you can see lots of ships on the screen at once, for that ooooh, look at the mighty fleet reaction.

The problem is that this just doesn't make sense. Why would you bunch up your ships really close together? What purpose does it serve? Is this the Battle of Gettysburg, with men lining up shoulder to shoulder to achieve mass of fire?

In the end, movies are visual entertainment, and logic will be sacrificed toward that end if necessary.

[Crazedwraith]

The Captain's Hand was a decent battle, but the mechanism used to kill off the Commander was really clumsy. Why doesn't Pegasus have any pressure suits, or even just some bloody breathing apparatus, for the damage control teams to use in critical areas of the ship that may be exposed to vacuum through combat damage? Why doesn't anyone else even try to go in to help the Commander when the survival of the entire ship rests on getting the FTL drive back online? The episode was calculated to leave Apollo in command.

They did. Gardener asked about them before going in but they were already in use in other areas by firefighters. Remember the Pegasus was mid-refit when the Cylon's attacked and may not have had a full complement of equipment on board.

Still I don't think nBSG spacebattles are that great. I remember the supposedly epically important fight to destroy the Resurrection ship amounted to seeing the Battle around Lee's hallucinating EVA body.

In fact I have to say nBSG's best Spacebattle was the throw down between Pegasus and Galactica and the end of "Pegasus" and that never even happened.

[Adrian Laguna]

You will NEVER see an intelligent space fleet battle in sci-fi, for the simple reason that for dramatic purposes, directors will always want to bunch up ships so they're really close together. That way, you can see lots of ships on the screen at once, for that ooooh, look at the mighty fleet reaction.

Another problem is that people tend to forget about the third dimension. Even when they remember it, they often don't apply it properly. Witness ST:TWOK, where the Enterprise goes "below" the Reliant to confuse it and instead of just shooting from there comes back up to the same plane.

The problem is that this just doesn't make sense. Why would you bunch up your ships really close together? What purpose does it serve?

Concentration of fire, both offensive and defense. Troops continue to be massed together in the modern day, just not as much as before due to the prevalence of rapid fire and area-effect weapons. The separation between units in any given formation is determined by the point of equilibrium between two necessities. The first is to separate the units to make area targeting against them as difficult as possible, and the second is put them close together so that they may support each other and make the formation an effective fighting force.

You can see this in bomber formations, fighter formations, armoured units, carrier fleets, carrier task forces, battleship lines, artillery batteries and, of course, our good old friend the infantry.

That said, the separation between units in any given formation throughout most, if not all, sci-fi is either too little or downright ridiculous. Worse is the separation between opposing fleets. Ships that should by all rights be shooting across at least thousands of kilometres routinely get in slugging matches at rock-throwing range.

Legend of the Galactic Heroes, which was cited earlier, manges to have ships reasonably spaced apart.



The ships you can see are all members of the same squadron. The rest of the fleet (numbering in the thousands or tens of thousands) is so far away and spread out it looks like a star field. LotGH also has reasonable engagement ranges. In the Battle of Starzone Kifeuser one commander comments that the enemy is shooting at extremely long range, then tells his fleet to open fire at 6 million kilometres. Unfortunately it tends to fall into the "no z-axis" trap, most egregiously at the Battle of Starzone Altner, where a minefield plays a major role.

Is this the Battle of Gettysburg, with men lining up shoulder to shoulder to achieve mass of fire?

Rather than citing that one battle out of many, you might want to consider saying "the age of musketry" or some such. Just a thought.

[Starglider]

Even when they remember it, they often don't apply it properly. Witness ST:TWOK, where the Enterprise goes "below" the Reliant to confuse it and instead of just shooting from there comes back up to the same plane.

That actually makes sense. The fire control systems were inoperative and the sensors were on the blink. Enterprise couldn't see Reliant from their original position, and in any case Reliant would have been a crossing target. By maneuvering directly behind Reliant, the Enterprise had a constant-bearing targeting solution, much easier for Chekov to hit.

But yeah in general visual sci-fi sucks for this. The only exceptions I can recall are a few sequences in B5.

[Adrian Laguna]

That actually makes sense. The fire control systems were inoperative and the sensors were on the blink. Enterprise couldn't see Reliant from their original position, and in any case Reliant would have been a crossing target. By maneuvering directly behind Reliant, the Enterprise had a constant-bearing targeting solution, much easier for Chekov to hit.

I never thought of it that way, but I doubt it would be that much easier. It's simple trigonometry and their computers still work. Hell, someone who's well practice could get a targeting solution in seconds just using a calculator.

[Warsie]

What kinds of space battles are you looking for?

Mainly fleet combat, but anything will do

[andrewgpaul]

But yeah in general visual sci-fi sucks for this. The only exceptions I can recall are a few sequences in B5.

B5 often had the firing ship in one shot, then cut to the target being hit in a second shot. They were rather inconsistent with that, though.

[Darth Wong]

But yeah in general visual sci-fi sucks for this. The only exceptions I can recall are a few sequences in B5.

B5 often had the firing ship in one shot, then cut to the target being hit in a second shot. They were rather inconsistent with that, though.

B5 had plenty of its own problems as far as space battle portrayals.

[AniThyng]

Regarding anime, don't forget Starship Operators, which used the "who puts the shot on target first wins" submarine style model of space combat. Though the only fleet battle occured at the end, and wasn't so much a fleet engagement as it was a "you are surrounded by overwhelming firepower, surrender please". Most of the battles in the series were one on one or maybe two on three etc., but it is a change from the usual.

[Lord of the Abyss]

From Footfall, I liked the battle between Message Bearer and it's digit ships, versus Michael, with it's Space Shuttles and flying cannons.

The Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand both had good space battles in them.

We Few has a very good space battle at the end, between the loyalists and coup supporter's fleets.

[Patrick Degan]

There have been some nifty battles in the Star Blazers/Space Battleship Yamato series.

For good battle porn, it's hard to beat SBY for television.

YouTube has this prime presentation of the original Japanese cut of episode 21 of the Comet Empire war, the battle at Saturn. This was part two of the main fleet showdown between the two powers in Earth's solar system.

An interesting difference is that, as opposed to the American version, the reason Capt. Hijakata (Gideon) heads his fleet into Saturn's rings is because he has his reserve squadrons orbiting within the Cassini Gap and intends to draw the enemy into pursuit where his forces can then catch them in a pincer.

[Uraniun235]

What was the reason given in the American cut?

Also I remember when you posted that Youtube link last time in the forum, and when I got around to watching SBY2 I was eagerly looking forward to this episode.

[Patrick Degan]

What was the reason given in the American cut?

Ah, d'ye not remember the "deadly cold of Saturn's ice rings" (100 degrees below zero) neutralising the Magna-Flame Guns?

[Uraniun235]

I'm afraid not; I've only seen the Japanese version with a friend who had a pile of fansubs. Not to cast any aspersions, though; I checked out a Star Blazers clip on Youtube and it looked like it was still fun, and if I'd seen it on TV before I probably would have watched it.


Since we're posting Youtubes, here's a battle from the Harlock movie Arcadia of My Youth. Youtube

It's a one-on-one duel with the ships trading broadsides... admittedly, a touch ridiculous, but the style is fun (although the picture is a bit dark). I tend to prefer the battles from the 1978 Space Pirate Captain Harlock TV series but I'm not seeing any of those on Youtube at the moment.

[Starglider]

B5 had plenty of its own problems as far as space battle portrayals.

Such as?

I'm sure it does, but if you're going to say this you might as well spell them out.

[Paolo]

The Humanist Inheritance first draft by Matthew Lineburger.

[Darth Wong]

B5 had plenty of its own problems as far as space battle portrayals.

Such as?

I'm sure it does, but if you're going to say this you might as well spell them out.

It's not obvious? Those horrible reusable close-ups of the defense guns always firing in the same direction? Intercut with those same shots of fighters skimming low over the surface of the station? They actually took the space battle choreography of the old 1970s Battlestar Galactica show and copied it! It's enough to give you abdominal cramps.

And how about close-range fixed-axis guns on EA battlewagons that have all the maneuverability of the Exxon Valdez? Or EA technology that can't target a Minbari ship even though you can see it with the naked eye and it's the size of a fucking aircraft carrier?

People seem to give B5 a pass because it has ships spinning on their axis in flight, but the addition of one realistic aspect does not magically eliminate all of the problems in the way they portray space battles.

[andrewgpaul]

I'm sure we had this discussion about stock footage before All I can say is, it never bothered me.

The EA ships' main guns seemed to have a pretty decent traverse - at least along the vertical plane (the two examples I can think of are the Agamemnon shooting White Star 1 in Jupiter's atmosphere and the Omega shooting defense satellites in the climactic battle of season 4.

The invisible Sharlins bugged me, too, though. even if for some reason the capital shpis don't have cameras (which would be pretty fucking stupid), a Starfury flight could spot for them, no?

To give them their dues, most capital ships would actually hit what they were shooting at, unlike plenty of other shows (like that anime clip Patrick linked to). The exceptions I can think of are fighters and White Stars, both of which have fixed-forward guns and manual pilot control.

One thing that does really annoy me is the 'realistic spaceflight' wankers. Only 2 ships ever behaved like that - the White Stars and the Starfury fighters. Everything else flew about like an X-Wing (as did the aforementioned ships, half the time). Not to mention how the hell the Earth destroyers decelerated without any thrusters on the bow.