The "Romance" Of War

[Falkenhayn]

I present the following quote, not to excuse what the President has said, only those who have experienced war first hand have warrant for such talk, but merely to point out that not all veterans dismiss the thing as futile horror.

"Time only strengthens my conviction that it was a good and strenuous life, and that the war, for all its destructiveness, was an incomparable schooling of the heart."
--Shock Troop Commander, Lieutenant Ernst Jünger

Yeah. 1920's Ernst Junger the fascist cheerleader/Storm of Steel writing war whore may well be a different character from 1944 Ernst Junger who was drummed out of the army for complicity in the July Plot, and whose son was murdered in a penal battalion in Italy for holding "subversive discussions".

Merely stating that veterans who state positive opinions of war don't necessarily maintain those positions when they're put into practice.

[K. A. Pital]

It is no fault
of mine, I know
That others
didn't come back home,
That they -
some young, some old
Lay there,
and we're not saying
I could save them,
but wasn't able -
We aren't saying,
but, but, but...

Alexander Tvardovsky.

It's remarkable how people who fought the Great Patriotic War - which they feel was the most just of all war, a war to stop annihilation of your people - how each of those veterans feels almost personal responsibility for all those who died, and did not come back.

Remarkable how Bush, who didn't fight, doesn't feel remorse at all, for no one in this war.

[MKSheppard]

He had ample opportunity to be on the front lines to help a young democracy succeed. He chose to sit at home in the Texas Air National Guard instead, and he couldn't even be bothered to show up for that half the time.

Bush's flight log lists him as flying 278 hours in the F-102.

The USAF's official Class A mishap rate for the F-102 is 13.69 accidents per 100,000 flight hours; or an accident rate of 0.0001369 per hour of flight time.

Since Bush flew 278 hours in either the F-102/TF-102;

300 x 0.0001369 = 0.0381 = 3.81% chance of being in a really bad accident.

We have 2.59 million people who served in country in Vietnam during the war, of which about 58,000 total all died from all causes (hostile fire, suicides, homicides, drowned in bathtub); which gives you a death rate of 2.24%.

Plus, not to mention Bush actually did inquire about participating in PALACE ALERT.

Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for three to six months of frontline service. This program was instituted because the Air Force lacked sufficient pilots of its own for duty in Vietnam but was unable to activate ANG units since Presidents Johnson and Nixon had decided not to do so for political reasons. Thanks to Palace Alert, the Air Force was able to transfer much-needed National Guard pilots to Vietnam on a voluntary basis while not actually calling up their squadrons.

But he was told no, he wouldn't be accepted, because he was still in training and didn't have the 500 hours of flight experience required to participate in PALACE ALERT, and by the time he did; PALACE ALERT had stopped accepting new applicants.

Bush still participated in drills and alerts (you know, participating in the Cold War defense of America) up to April 1972; before being discharged in October '73 from the ANG.

Your entire whinge is based upon a false assumption that the Cold War really wasn't a war; and that people didn't die during the Cold War doing their jobs.

[MKSheppard]

300 x 0.0001369 = 0.0381 = 3.81% chance of being in a really bad accident.

I went with an original figure for 300 hours, before I found a more precise figure of 278 hours for Bush's F-102 flight hours; and recalculated it, but forgot to change it from 300 to 278.

[Thanas]

^Shep, that only makes sense if you compare his risk rate to the risk rate of a pilot in vietnam. It is not exactly fair to compare the flight risk to the risk rate of all the american forces either. Substract the rear units etc, show me the real risk rate for combat troops and then try to make that argument again.

Besides, no matter the risk involved, the fact is that Bush was not in a combat unit and spent his days in sunny Texas. You are trying to equate that with combat service in Vietnam. Nice.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I present the following quote, not to excuse what the President has said, only those who have experienced war first hand have warrant for such talk, but merely to point out that not all veterans dismiss the thing as futile horror.

"Time only strengthens my conviction that it was a good and strenuous life, and that the war, for all its destructiveness, was an incomparable schooling of the heart."
--Shock Troop Commander, Lieutenant Ernst Jünger

Yeah. 1920's Ernst Junger the fascist cheerleader/Storm of Steel writing war whore may well be a different character from 1944 Ernst Junger who was drummed out of the army for complicity in the July Plot, and whose son was murdered in a penal battalion in Italy for holding "subversive discussions".

Merely stating that veterans who state positive opinions of war don't necessarily maintain those positions when they're put into practice.

The Conservative Revolutionary Movement was not associated with Nazism--Juenger refused repeatedly to take any post in the Nazi regime, and was reactivated as a reserve officer commanding an occupation battalion in France, where he spent his time protecting several more leftist writers that, though he disagreed with, he respected their work, from the Nazis. Both he and his son were involved in the July plot, and Juenger himself likely would have been shot if he wasn't so popular with the rest of the army, but what does that have to do with a love of war? One can oppose the Nazi regime and still find war glorious; the Nazis did plenty of other repulsive, reviled things which could make an outright warmonger had them as much as a pacifist. There is nothing which demands that someone who loves war, after all, also love gassing innocent civilians in camps.

It's important to note that Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart, who only had an eye and a hand blown off in the Great War, after also fighting in the Boer War, and being wounded over and over again in the Great War, kept coming back, and kept fighting. He then fought with the Poles in the Russian Civil War, and then resigned the Army and returned to command a Franco-British force in WW2 in Norway, and then went on a variety of advisory missions for the rest of the war, captured by the Italians in 1941 just to be freed (after seven escape attempts) in 1943, and sent to Chiang by Churchill. He also declared his supreme love for war. Between the wars, he spent his time killing animals (including more than 20,000 ducks), distributing all the meat to poor people in the area of Poland where he was living. He obviously didn't support the Nazis, but declared his profuse love for warfare.

[pucky18]

I must say, I'm a little envious. If I were slightly younger and not employed here, I think it would be a fantastic experience to be on the front lines helping this young democracy succeed...It must be exciting for you...in some ways romantic, in some ways, you know, confronting danger. You're really making history, and thanks.

—George W. Bush, 2008

Yeah, just like you took the opportunity to go "make history" in Vietnam....

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I present the following quote, not to excuse what the President has said, only those who have experienced war first hand have warrant for such talk, but merely to point out that not all veterans dismiss the thing as futile horror.

"Time only strengthens my conviction that it was a good and strenuous life, and that the war, for all its destructiveness, was an incomparable schooling of the heart."
--Shock Troop Commander, Lieutenant Ernst Jünger

Yeah. 1920's Ernst Junger the fascist cheerleader/Storm of Steel writing war whore may well be a different character from 1944 Ernst Junger who was drummed out of the army for complicity in the July Plot, and whose son was murdered in a penal battalion in Italy for holding "subversive discussions".

Merely stating that veterans who state positive opinions of war don't necessarily maintain those positions when they're put into practice.

The Conservative Revolutionary Movement was not associated with Nazism--Juenger refused repeatedly to take any post in the Nazi regime, and was reactivated as a reserve officer commanding an occupation battalion in France, where he spent his time protecting several more leftist writers that, though he disagreed with, he respected their work, from the Nazis. Both he and his son were involved in the July plot, and Juenger himself likely would have been shot if he wasn't so popular with the rest of the army, but what does that have to do with a love of war? One can oppose the Nazi regime and still find war glorious; the Nazis did plenty of other repulsive, reviled things which could make an outright warmonger had them as much as a pacifist. There is nothing which demands that someone who loves war, after all, also love gassing innocent civilians in camps.

It's important to note that Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart, who only had an eye and a hand blown off in the Great War, after also fighting in the Boer War, and being wounded over and over again in the Great War, kept coming back, and kept fighting. He then fought with the Poles in the Russian Civil War, and then resigned the Army and returned to command a Franco-British force in WW2 in Norway, and then went on a variety of advisory missions for the rest of the war, captured by the Italians in 1941 just to be freed (after seven escape attempts) in 1943, and sent to Chiang by Churchill. He also declared his supreme love for war. Between the wars, he spent his time killing animals (including more than 20,000 ducks), distributing all the meat to poor people in the area of Poland where he was living. He obviously didn't support the Nazis, but declared his profuse love for warfare.

That man was fucking amazing. I just read the wiki article on him. Holy shit. Who ever he is he needs a BAMF award.

It's also shit like this that makes me want to join the army. Unfortunately for myself I'm stubborn when i comes to emotional experiences and I know i'll need to experience it before I can say anything more about it .

[K. A. Pital]

A person who relishes in carnage of war, destruction and murder is "amazing" and makes you want to join the army?

A total pacifist has a broken moral code, but yours is no less broken, as is this "Sir" person's code totally atrocious.

Relishing war for war's sake is the most disturbing thing I see here, nothing awesome or amazing.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

A person who relishes in carnage of war, destruction and murder is "amazing" and makes you want to join the army?

A total pacifist has a broken moral code, but yours is no less broken, as is this "Sir" person's code totally atrocious.

Relishing war for war's sake is the most disturbing thing I see here, nothing awesome or amazing.

Amazing that despite the fact that he's come as close to one can to being killed, multiple times, the man still went to fight.

And no I don't want to relish in the death and destruction of my fellow men. I know that war is a horrible thing, but unfortunately for myself, I also think that there can be glory and romance in war. I want to fight to fix that, because I know if I don't go I'll still have the wrong ideas about it.

[FSTargetDrone]

And no I don't want to relish in the death and destruction of my fellow men. I know that war is a horrible thing, but unfortunately for myself, I also think that there can be glory and romance in war. I want to fight to fix that, because I know if I don't go I'll still have the wrong ideas about it.

Visit a VA hospital. See how glorious it seems after that.

[K. A. Pital]

Amazing that despite the fact that he's come as close to one can to being killed, multiple times, the man still went to fight.

You know there's a lot of mental disorders in the world, right? You know that due to severe trauma, brain fear centers can no longer work properly sometimes?

I also think that there can be glory and romance in war

Glory and romance? Usually there's some glory and romance in the cause that you're fighting for - for example defending the Motherland, or helping an ally of yours, but, not in the actual process of fighting. War could be very important, yes, stir strong emotions of patriotism and so on, but... it's not glorious, not romantic.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Quite oddly a vote for John McCain ad was at the bottom of the screen while I read the post.

Yes I well "aware" of what war is. And when I have visited vets they (for the most part) tell me the same thing. War is horrible, dangerous, and destructive. But unless you actually go through it you won't truly understand and you'll have the wrong ideas about it for your whole life. I don't want to have a false idea that war has glory and romance in it, which is what I have konw. I'm going to have to get through if I want a chance of getting rid of that thinking.

[Simplicius]

If you are already aware that your idea of a glorious and romantic war is false, as you say, then you already have the basis you need to draw more honest conclusions about it.

My advice is to immerse yourself in as much primary material as possible, supplemented with serious historical writing. Ponder the words of those who have been, don't just hear them. Watch documentaries for their original footage, study old photographs - see the fleets, the charges, the bomber swarms, the ruined cities, the ruined men. Read newspaper clippings and take in contemporary popular culture to get a grasp of the domestic and political climates. Read histories for context, costs, and consequences. And then, when you are done, walk old battlefields and try to imagine all the you have previously read, seen, and heard taking place around you. Go to the memorials, go the the cemeteries, try to picture the people who once lived, who once fought, and who are now no longer. Go to you local old cemetery, if you have one, and look for the G.A.R. badges by the graves. Visit your local war memorials, and try to learn a bit about the names you see.

It will take years, and you will have to be scrupulously honest and careful to avoid getting taken in by the myths that swirl around wars - those myths being a part and parcel of what you should study. And you will never know precisely what war is really like. But you will understand it much better, and you will start to grasp what those veterans and those famous quotes from all those dead generals really mean when they talk about war.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

300 x 0.0001369 = 0.0381 = 3.81% chance of being in a really bad accident.

I went with an original figure for 300 hours, before I found a more precise figure of 278 hours for Bush's F-102 flight hours; and recalculated it, but forgot to change it from 300 to 278.

Hey! Anyone wanna pull up the statistics for how likely it is for someone driving to be involved in a deadly accident? Using Shep's logic, we can prove how driving to and from work is far more dangerous than taking part in a war, *I'm a smarmy asshole*?

[Falkenhayn]

I present the following quote, not to excuse what the President has said, only those who have experienced war first hand have warrant for such talk, but merely to point out that not all veterans dismiss the thing as futile horror.

"Time only strengthens my conviction that it was a good and strenuous life, and that the war, for all its destructiveness, was an incomparable schooling of the heart."
--Shock Troop Commander, Lieutenant Ernst Jünger

Yeah. 1920's Ernst Junger the fascist cheerleader/Storm of Steel writing war whore may well be a different character from 1944 Ernst Junger who was drummed out of the army for complicity in the July Plot, and whose son was murdered in a penal battalion in Italy for holding "subversive discussions".

Merely stating that veterans who state positive opinions of war don't necessarily maintain those positions when they're put into practice.

The Conservative Revolutionary Movement was not associated with Nazism--Juenger refused repeatedly to take any post in the Nazi regime, and was reactivated as a reserve officer commanding an occupation battalion in France, where he spent his time protecting several more leftist writers that, though he disagreed with, he respected their work, from the Nazis. Both he and his son were involved in the July plot, and Juenger himself likely would have been shot if he wasn't so popular with the rest of the army, but what does that have to do with a love of war? One can oppose the Nazi regime and still find war glorious; the Nazis did plenty of other repulsive, reviled things which could make an outright warmonger had them as much as a pacifist. There is nothing which demands that someone who loves war, after all, also love gassing innocent civilians in camps.

I'm aware that in 1945 the man who loved war was put in charge of a Volksturm detachment and ordered them not to engage American forces. Though he may have become an effective conservative politician and writer, he clearly recognized that Germany was boned before the war was over, and gave orders to halt fighting and preserve lives. This is in line with the Western Front Wehrmacht at that time, and completely opposite the attitudes he portrays in Storm of Steel. Which is exactly the point I'm making. Put him in command of the Stormtroopers and he wins the Blue Max during the Spring Offensives. 25 Years, a dead son and another lost war later, and he orders his men to live and let live. I'm not conflating Junger with the Nazis at all, I never mentioned them except in the vaguest possible terms, you hardly have to be a Nazi to be a war whore, and there's nothing especially right about warmongering thats Nazi free.

My other, real point, was to tell Adrian that the George Pattons and Hans Ulrich Rudels of the world are the exceptions that prove the rule, and as Red Herrings, like Ernst Junger, don't matter. Simplicius' comments speak to the feelings of the majority of veterans.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm aware that in 1945 the man who loved war was put in charge of a Volksturm detachment and ordered them not to engage American forces. Though he may have become an effective conservative politician and writer, he clearly recognized that Germany was boned before the war was over, and gave orders to halt fighting and preserve lives. This is in line with the Western Front Wehrmacht at that time, and completely opposite the attitudes he portrays in Storm of Steel. Which is exactly the point I'm making. Put him in command of the Stormtroopers and he wins the Blue Max during the Spring Offensives. 25 Years, a dead son and another lost war later, and he orders his men to live and let live. I'm not conflating Junger with the Nazis at all, I never mentioned them except in the vaguest possible terms, you hardly have to be a Nazi to be a war whore, and there's nothing especially right about warmongering thats Nazi free.

Or, it's just possible to enjoy war without being so insane as to be unable to know when it is pointless.

[Adrian Laguna]

My other, real point, was to tell Adrian that the George Pattons and Hans Ulrich Rudels of the world are the exceptions that prove the rule, and as Red Herrings, like Ernst Junger, don't matter. Simplicius' comments speak to the feelings of the majority of veterans.

And I was merely pointing out the existence of these exceptions.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I recall sometime ago I spouted some incoherent diatribe asking how disconnected those in power are to the common man. I mean, they're up there on their pedestals, their way of thinking, what they see, hear, taste and smell, their entire world must be viewed on a whole 'nother wavelength from how we see things. And, well, now we know.

You don't really need personal experience to know that war is unpleasant. Anyone who has even a smidgen of intelligence could easily figure out ... oh yeah, we're talking about Bush.

Or if you just play computer games of it. then again I at least know war is horrible even though I commit atocities in Risk, Empire Earth, C&C, Civilization, and Galactic Civilizations....

aww hell I play 40k, and Warhammer Fantasy and I'm more in touch with military relality then Nero Bush is...

[Jade Falcon]

Am I the only one who thinks that Bush coming out with this statement not long after Prince Harry served in Afghanistan is a bit coincidental?

[Darth Wong]

My other, real point, was to tell Adrian that the George Pattons and Hans Ulrich Rudels of the world are the exceptions that prove the rule, and as Red Herrings, like Ernst Junger, don't matter. Simplicius' comments speak to the feelings of the majority of veterans.

And I was merely pointing out the existence of these exceptions.

For what purpose? There were Nazi officers in WW2 who thought that the Holocaust was fucking wonderful. Should you bring those guys up too?