Fundi polygamist cults at it again.

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Broomstick
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Post by Broomstick »

Update from CNN

Number of children taken into custody: 401

Women taken from YFZ ranch: 133. The women are actually free to go back, but apparently most have chosen to not go back.

I'm wondering if this call from a 16 year old girl was the final straw that gave the authorities what they needed to shut this cult down.

So far, no bloodshed is apparent.
CNN) -- Authorities said Monday they have taken legal custody of 401 children who lived on an isolated West Texas polygamist retreat built by imprisoned "prophet" Warren Jeffs.

The children are being kept at a temporary shelter at historic Fort Concho in nearby San Angelo while authorities investigate whether a child bride gave birth on the ranch at age 15.

The children in state custody are joined at the shelter by 133 women, most of them mothers, who were taken during the past few days from the sprawling Yearning for Zion ranch, said Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the state's Child Protective Services agency.

The women are free to return to the 1,900-acre compound, officials said, but many have chosen to remain. At this point, officials said, the children's fathers are not permitted to see them. Video See buses take girls from compound »

Court proceedings began Monday to determine whether there is enough evidence to remove the children from their homes on the ranch, which is near Eldorado, Meisner said. A hearing is scheduled April 17.

The children will be appointed lawyers and legal guardians in about two weeks, she added.

Meisner said the temporary shelter is filling up quickly, and officials are facing a "critical shortage" of foster homes. Officials will try to keep siblings together, she added.

Law enforcement officials would not provide many details of their investigation, but Meisner said the 401 court affidavits being filed Monday should shed some light on the alleged abuse.

The investigation, which began Thursday night, is continuing and authorities remain on the property to search for evidence and other children, said Tela Mange of the Texas Department of Public Safety.

One man has been arrested, allegedly for interfering with investigators. He faces a misdemeanor charge, authorities said.

Investigators said they believe more children will be found at the ranch, but Mange stopped short of saying they were being hidden. Video See why police want every child removed »

Authorities would not say whether they have located or identified the teen tipster whose call prompted the raid.

On March 31, a 16-year-old called and reported physical and sexual abuse on the ranch, authorities said. She said she was married to a 50-year-old man. Authorities are looking for evidence the girl had a child at the age of 15.

It remains unclear whether the girl who reported being abused is among the children being interviewed -- or was whisked away from the compound under a different name before authorities arrived.

"I am confident that this girl does indeed exist," Meisner said earlier. "I am confident that the allegations that she brought forth are accurate."

One issue compounding an already difficult and sensitive investigation is the difficulty pinning down exact names and ages of the people being interviewed -- as well as of the people being sought.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints bought the ranch four years ago and began erecting dormitories and a large, white temple. Hundreds of Jeffs' followers moved from Arizona and Utah as authorities there stepped up their investigations.

The name is taken from one of Jeffs' spiritual songs, "Yearning for Zion."

Authorities began blocking roads to the YFZ ranch Thursday, then raided the compound and began busing women and children off the property. Most were girls, and most wore hand-sewn prairie dresses.Video Watch Eldorado residents react to the removals »

Officers entered the compound with a search warrant for 50-year-old Dale Evans Barlow, who they believed was married to the 16-year-old tipster. The search warrant authorized law enforcement to seize any evidence of a marriage between the two including CDs, DVDs and a computer hard drive, The Associated Press reported.

Barlow was sentenced to jail last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor, the AP said.

Barlow was ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while on probation, the wire service reported. Barlow's probation officer, Bill Loader, told The Salt Lake Tribune in Utah that he was in Arizona and did not know his accuser.

It remained unclear, the spokeswomen said, whether that was the same Dale Barlow named in their warrant. They acknowledged the man they are seeking might not be in Texas, but said they had no other details about his whereabouts.

CNN's previous visits to the ranch revealed the compound was guarded by armed men equipped with night-vision gear and other high-tech surveillance tools.

Authorities would not say Monday whether they had found any weapons.
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Jeffs remains jailed in Kingman, Arizona, where he awaits trial on four counts of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives.

Jeffs was sentenced in November to two terms of 5 years to life for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who said she was forced to marry her cousin.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Well, that's good so far. Hopefully it stays that way and they can safely dismantle the place. Hopefully those two towns they've got on the Utah-Arizona border.
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

Warsie wrote:
FSTargetDrone wrote: Anyway, the 16 year-old who evidently made the call for help starting all of this has still not been located.
ditto..does anyone else see this as odd? it's been 2-3 days?
It's possible, according to news reports, that the girl is among the children in custody and she simply hasn't been identified yet.
At this point, officials said, the children's fathers are not permitted to see them.
This is important, because we can all be damn sure that the men might well try to encourage/intimidate the kids. I fear for those women who do return.
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Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

Broomstick wrote:And one more concern - fleeing the country. These assholes also have a community up in Bountiful, British Columbia.
That community has been getting its due. Lots of information on CBC's The Fifth Estate.
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Post by wautd »

Freedom of religion is all fine and dandy. Sadly there aren't enough laws to protect children from religion
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Post by Cairber »

article
When Jessop was a member of the sect, it was centered in Colorado City, Ariz., on the Utah border. The 1,700-acre Texas compound was built after she left. The sect’s leader, Warren Jeffs, was sentenced to 10 years in prison last September after being found guilty of two counts of first-degree accomplice rape for sanctioning the forced marriage of a 14-year-old girl to her 19-year-old cousin.

The 40-year-old Jessop was 18 when she was forced to marry Merril Jessop, who is said to have taken over leadership of the sect when Jeffs went to prison. Merril Jessop was 50 at the time of the marriage and had three other wives. She said from what she has heard and read, the sect has become even more restrictive since moving to Texas.

She has written a book about her experience entitled “Escape,” and in it, she talks about being totally cut off from the world and not being allowed to watch television or read newspapers or magazines.

“Everything you did was monitored and controlled and everybody reported on everyone else,” she said. “It was a police state. You were not allowed to make decisions in your life. I had no power over my life or the lives of my children. It was a terrible way to live.”

The alleged control began in infancy.

“The method he would use with infants was a form of water torture,” Jessop said of her former husband. “He would spank the baby until it was screaming out of control, and then he would hold the baby faceup under a tap of running water so it couldn’t breathe. He would do this repeatedly. Sometimes, it would go on for an hour, until the baby was so exhausted it couldn’t cry anymore. This method he called ‘breaking them.’”
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Post by Zwinmar »

they are mormons..enough said.

Take a look at history (real history) and make up your own mind.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

Zwinmar wrote:they are mormons..enough said.

Take a look at history (real history) and make up your own mind.
They're a rather nasty growth off of Mormons that never gave up polygamy and also happen to be a bunch of fucking leeches as well as pedophiles. Don't paint all Mormons with the same brush; that type of shit was prominent way back in the day, but at least the LDS Church heavily condemns this group today (they were backing the Short Creek Raid way back in the 1950s).
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Post by Zwinmar »

Until someone can prove to me that they are 'just a nasty growth' I am going to stick with the historical perspective of the Mormons. Feel free to look up the Moutain Meadows Massacre (11 September 1857).

Just FYI, I am not painting individuals, it is the church itself that I have a real problem with.

Or better yet, explain to me why a Theocracy exists in Utah.

Article in the Washington Monthly Might give some insight.

For an opposing view
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Post by Kodiak »

Zwinmar wrote:Until someone can prove to me that they are 'just a nasty growth' I am going to stick with the historical perspective of the Mormons.

Fuck you for being such a closed-minded dipshit. If you had bothered to do any searching on http://www.lds.org you would've been able to see that they ARE an offshoot, like so many others, that are not affiliated with the church at large.

more here
lds.org wrote:President Gordon B. Hinckley stated the following about polygamy in the Church's October 1998 general conference:

“I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members. They are in violation of the civil law. They know they are in violation of the law. They are subject to its penalties. The Church, of course, has no jurisdiction whatever in this matter.

"If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of thelaw of this Church. An article of our faith is binding upon us. It states, 'We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law' (Articles of Faith 1:12).”
I suppose you think that Al Qaeda represents all of Islam? Or that the Ku Klux Klan represents southern Baptists? Or that the family that let their daughter die while they were "praying her well" represents all "fundies"? Your ignorance is astounding.

Feel free to look up the Moutain Meadow ... ber 1857).

Read about Mountain Meadoes here and see that it was a giant clusterfuck that has never been connected to the church leadership.

For more reading about why the Mormons were so terrified, feel free to read these articles:

The Haun's Mill Massacre
The Battle of Nauvoo
And remember that the Mountain Meadow's Massacre occurred during the Utah War during which the president of the US sent 2500 armed soldiers to put down a rebellion that wasn't happening.

Just FYI, I am not painting individuals, it is the church itself that I have a real problem with. Or better yet, explain to me why a Theocracy exists in Utah.
Did you get picked on by Mormon boy scouts in your youth? A theocracy doesn't exist in Utah, but it is true that over half the state is LDS. The church doesn't legislate, nor does it weigh in on political matters. Social and moral issues which are often decided by politicians, yes it does weigh in, but the church doesn't govern in Utah any more than the Pope controls what goes on in predominantly Catholic nations. If you've got an ax to grind with the Mormons go ahead and get it off your chest, but if you believe these radical fringe groups represent any significant portion of the 13 million Latter-day saints world wide, you're as retarded as you sound.
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Post by Kodiak »

Ghetto edit of above post

Zwinmar wrote:Until someone can prove to me that they are 'just a nasty growth' I am going to stick with the historical perspective of the Mormons.
Fuck you for being such a closed-minded dipshit. If you had bothered to do any searching on http://www.lds.org you would've been able to see that they ARE an offshoot, like so many others, that are not affiliated with the church at large.

more here
lds.org wrote:President Gordon B. Hinckley stated the following about polygamy in the Church's October 1998 general conference:

“I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members. They are in violation of the civil law. They know they are in violation of the law. They are subject to its penalties. The Church, of course, has no jurisdiction whatever in this matter.

"If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of thelaw of this Church. An article of our faith is binding upon us. It states, 'We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law' (Articles of Faith 1:12).”
I suppose you think that Al Qaeda represents all of Islam? Or that the Ku Klux Klan represents southern Baptists? Or that the family that let their daughter die while they were "praying her well" represents all "fundies"? Your ignorance is astounding.
Feel free to look up the Moutain Meadows Massacre (11 September 1857).
Read about Mountain Meadows here and see that it was a giant clusterfuck that has never been connected to the church leadership.

For more reading about why the Mormons were so terrified, feel free to read these articles:

The Haun's Mill Massacre
The Battle of Nauvoo
And remember that the Mountain Meadow's Massacre occurred during the Utah War during which the president of the US sent 2500 armed soldiers to put down a rebellion that wasn't happening.

Just FYI, I am not painting individuals, it is the church itself that I have a real problem with. Or better yet, explain to me why a Theocracy exists in Utah.
Did you get picked on by Mormon boy scouts in your youth? A theocracy doesn't exist in Utah, but it is true that over half the state is LDS. The church doesn't legislate, nor does it weigh in on political matters. Social and moral issues which are often decided by politicians, yes it does weigh in, but the church doesn't govern in Utah any more than the Pope controls what goes on in predominantly Catholic nations. If you've got an ax to grind with the Mormons go ahead and get it off your chest, but if you believe these radical fringe groups represent any significant portion of the 13 million Latter-day saints world wide, you're as retarded as you sound.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

With regards to the Utah War and all that badness, let us not forget some pretty horrific things were done to the mormons before they fled Missouri. Like the Extermination Order of 1838.
Copy of a Military Order by the Governor of Missouri. HEAD QUARTERS, MILITIA, City of Jefferson, Oct. 27, 1838. Sir:--Since the order of the morning to you, directing you to cause four hundred mounted men to be raised within your division, I have received by Amos Rees, Esq. and Wiley E. Williams Esq., one of my aids, information of the most appalling character, which changes the whole face of things, and places the Mormons in the attitude of an open and avowed defiance of the laws, and of having made open war upon the people of this state. Your orders are, therefore, to hasten your operations and endeavor to reach Richmond, in Ray County, with all possible speed. The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the state, if necessary, for the public good. Their outrages are beyond all description. If you can increase your force, you are authorized to do so to any extent you may think necessary. I have just issued orders to Maj. Gen. Wallock, of Marion County, to raise 500 men and march them to the northern part of Daviess, and there unite with Gen. Doniphan, of Clay, who has been ordered with 500 men to proceed to the same point, for the purpose of intercepting the retreat of the Mormons to the North. They have been directed to communicate with you by express. You can also communicate with them if you find it necessary. Instead, therefore, of proceeding, as at first directed, to reinstate the citizens of Daviess in their homes, you will proceed immediately to Richmond, and there operate against the Mormons. Brig. Gen. Parks, of Ray, has been ordered to have four hundred men of his brigade in readiness to join you at Richmond. The whole force will be placed under your command. L. W. BOGGS, Gov. And Command-in-chief. To Gen. Clark.
Here's a pdf of Missouri Executive Order 44, in case you want to save a copy.

After the leaders of the church were siezed and tried under military tribunal, they were executed without appeal. So let's not pretend like the Mormons didn't have good reason to be fearful when the army showed up in Utah with orders to 'put down insurrection'. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that these nutters in Texas have about as much in common with the mormon church as they do with any other fringe Christian bag of nuts.
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Post by Zwinmar »

Its not a theocracy? Quotes
"Always keep your eye on the President of the church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, even if it is wrong, and you do it, the lord will bless you for it but you don't need to worry. The lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray."

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Proof the governor is Mormon

Proof that Governors have tried to meld government and religion

Proof the Governor will continue his association with the church
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

So, because the governor of Utah is a mormon, that makes Utah a mormon theocracy? Does Bush being President make America an evangellical theocracy?

Also, in your article about the previous governor trying to bring in religious teachings to government, did you notice that other mormons were surprised that someone would try to do that? Seriously, do you just hate mormons?
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

You know what, I'll just leave this to Kodiak. Its his faith, not mine.
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Post by Kodiak »

Zwinmar wrote:Its not a theocracy?
Nope.

Proof the governor is Mormon

Shocking you found such a well-guarded secret :roll: . Better be careful, the Temple Guard should be hot on your trail.

Proof that Governors have tried to meld government and religion
ZOMG! They tried to use such principles as: "free agency, accountability, equality, stewardship, marriage, unity, goodness, heritage, worship, safety and a sense of order." AND IN A GOVERNMENT! OUTRAGE! BTW the article says "were not overtly religious". This link proves that Utah is as much a theocracy as any government controlled by a predominantly Christian majority.

Proof the Governor will continue his association with the church

You expect him to NOT work with the church? The church has an infrastructure that dwarfs most states in terms of community involvement, humanitarian aid, and has what may be the largest non-government welfare system in the world. As a governor, he'd have to be a moron or a lunatic to work with the church. From the article:
"As home to the LDS Church headquarters, the State of Utah has the good fortune of working with an organization so uniquely focused on service and humanitarian efforts and we will continue this association with this next generation of leadership."
Methinks you're seeing what you want to see. You may accuse me of the same thing, but there's no evidence of foul play. I take it from your non-response to my earlier posts that you can now distinguish the Texas-Ranch polygamists from the LDS church.
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Post by Isolder74 »

Never bring up Mountain Meadows again. In my opinion it was the fault of the worst president in History, James Buchanan. If he had never sent the army to Utah on the weakest of portents and kept the army where it should have been and instead used them to deal with the terrible thing happening in Kansas then it would have never happened.

No Utah War no Mountain Meadows. No soldiers coming to Utah no paranoid Utahans to over react and commit the massacre.

The irony of this is that when it was the Utahans way out in the west, and no evidence at all of their wanting to revolt he sends an army. When it was South Carolina and it was doing the same thing for real he did nothing.
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Post by Broomstick »

If I recall correctly, the State of Michigan has had two Mormon governors - will you now maintain that Michigan is a Mormon theocracy?
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Post by Kodiak »

Broomstick wrote: If I recall correctly, the State of Michigan has had two Mormon governors - will you now maintain that Michigan is a Mormon theocracy?
And don't forget Massachusets, that bastion of Mormon power that gave us the first Mormon presidential candidate with a reasonable chance to get a nomination.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Frankly, I would categorize most American state as being at least mildly theocratic, in the sense that it's pretty much impossible for an atheist to become governor. While the religious test is not necessarily enshrined in law in most of those states, it is certainly applied in practice.
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Post by Zwinmar »

Kodiak wrote:
Zwinmar wrote:Until someone can prove to me that they are 'just a nasty growth' I am going to stick with the historical perspective of the Mormons.
Fuck you for being such a closed-minded dipshit. If you had bothered to do any searching on http://www.lds.org you would've been able to see that they ARE an offshoot, like so many others, that are not affiliated with the church at large.
First, since when is the fundies website admissible as any form of evidence, if it were we would have all sorts of 'proof' for the other cults (Christianity and the like)

"If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of thelaw of this Church. An article of our faith is binding upon us. It states, 'We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law' (Articles of Faith 1:12).”
And yet they do not mention that they will give their family to another man. Thats right, just summarily give a man's wife to another man.
I suppose you think that Al Qaeda represents all of Islam? Or that the Ku Klux Klan represents southern Baptists? Or that the family that let their daughter die while they were "praying her well" represents all "fundies"? Your ignorance is astounding.
As is your own for not actually looking at the religion, rather than just assuming that they are 'good' and 'right.' The Mormons are also the only group (that I know of) were a person can be converted after death, wether they wish for it or not. (And yes, some dickhead 'converted' some of my ancestors who were dead by the time the Young came along.)
For more reading about why the Mormons were so terrified, feel free to read these articles:

The Haun's Mill Massacre
The Battle of Nauvoo
And remember that the Mountain Meadow's Massacre occurred during the Utah War during which the president of the US sent 2500 armed soldiers to put down a rebellion that wasn't happening.
So, the government cant put down dickhead religious nuts? Oh yeah, what would you call the raid? Regardless of that, and I'm going to be an ass, and say that they should have done a better job. There wasnt even any real fighting that took place when the troops were sent, rather the Mormons used a scorched earth tactic. Then, as is now, they are a Religious Cult, bent on trying to control the Government.

Just FYI, I am not painting individuals, it is the church itself that I have a real problem with. Or better yet, explain to me why a Theocracy exists in Utah.
Did you get picked on by Mormon boy scouts in your youth? A theocracy doesn't exist in Utah, but it is true that over half the state is LDS. The church doesn't legislate, nor does it weigh in on political matters. Social and moral issues which are often decided by politicians, yes it does weigh in, but the church doesn't govern in Utah any more than the Pope controls what goes on in predominantly Catholic nations. If you've got an ax to grind with the Mormons go ahead and get it off your chest, but if you believe these radical fringe groups represent any significant portion of the 13 million Latter-day saints world wide, you're as retarded as you sound.
Lets see..a bit of logic here:
1.) A Mormon does what the prophet (lead asshole) of the church says, as that prophet's words are divinly inspired and infallible.
2.) The Governor is Mormon.
3.) If that isnt enough, a case can be made that the Governor is in direct contact with the church at all times. One such evidence being that there is a tunnel from the capital to the church, directly linking them.

The conclusion is easy to come to:
1.) since 1 is true (and you didnt even try to refute it) and 2 is true, the only logical explination is that the Church controls the Governor. I do realize that each person makes up their own mind, however, It seems to me that only a 'good' Mormon would be 'elected' governor in the first place.
2.) Utah, is a theocracy,
Theocracy is a form of government in which a god or deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler. For believers, theocracy is a form of government in which divine power governs an earthly human state, either in a personal incarnation or, more often, via religious institutional representatives (i.e.: a church), replacing or dominating civil government.[1] Theocratic governments enact theonomic laws.

Theocracy should be distinguished from other secular forms of government that have a state religion, or are merely influenced by theological or moral concepts, and monarchies held "By the Grace of God".

A theocracy may be monist in form, where the administrative hierarchy of the government is identical with the administrative hierarchy of the religion, or it may have two 'arms,' but with the state administrative hierarchy subordinate to the religious hierarchy.

Some democratic political parties and other organizations advocate reconstruction of governments as theocracies. See the article on the Islamic party. Other alleged examples include the Unification Church and Christian Reconstructionism.
-from Wikipedia

And yes, any state that has Mormon leaders are technically a theocracy, as the person is expected to do what the church says (though free will and all)
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Broomstick
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Post by Broomstick »

Zwinmar wrote:And yes, any state that has Mormon leaders are technically a theocracy, as the person is expected to do what the church says (though free will and all)
:roll: Yes, because every member of every church always does exactly as told. :roll:

Did you notice the Catholic theocracy when JFK was elected PotUS? No? Because there wasn't one.

It's a constant frustration to churches and fundies that when one of their own gain political power they tend to "stray' from the party line. The mere fact that a governor of a state (or any other elected official) is a Momron is not evidence that he is head of theocracy. The proof is not in what he believes but in what he does.

Certainly, in the case of Michigan, having a Mormon governor was in many ways a non-event. I can recall nothing that smelled Mormon when I lived in that state. You might as well argue that the election of a former Canadian citizen to governor of Michigan had them all learning French (badly) as a second language and converting to metric (didn't happen) or tattooing maple leaves on all their asses (I'm afraid to ask what is tattooed on people's asses, but I'm pretty sure it usually isn't a maple leaf).

Utah, given that the state is majority Mormon, might be a theocracy, but you have offered nothing that I would consider proof. Of course the governor of Utah is most likely a Mormon, just as the governor of Alabama is most likely a Baptist. The elected ruler is most likely going to resemble the majority of the constituents (though there are exceptions).
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Zwinmar
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Post by Zwinmar »

That is a benefit of living in a 'free' society at large, however, I would say that indications are that social pressure, escpecially in such a fundamentalist state as Utah, is such that the Governor will be pressured to do what the church says, rather than his job.

The church leaders have stated that their president (prophet, whatever) is infallible, almost an avatar of 'god.' If a Baptist were to say the same as the Mormon church leaders have said, they would be ridiculed by everyone, whoever, the veil of bullshit falls over a group of individuals who, since the inception of this farce, have repeatedly broken the law of the land all in the name of a bullshit religion.

I do not have the evidence on hand (from a reliable source: unless you consider crappy conspericy websites as a reliable source, and I do not) and will get said sources on Monday from the library. However, a large percentage of the Governors have been controlled by the church leaders, and assumeing (i know ass-u-me) they are a 'good' Mormon, they will do precisely what the 'voice of god' says.

Unlike most Christian demoninations, the Mormon doctrine has a much tighter grasp on the dumbasses who follow it, requireing a tithe, even go so far as automatic deductions. Directly controlling the household, and dictating to them who their family will be.

It seems to me that Mormonism is the biggest cult in America, one that makes the feared 'Satanism' look tame by comparison. They have succeded in pulling the wool over the eyes of most of the populace and 'proved' they are Christians...which they are not.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Broomstick wrote:
Zwinmar wrote:And yes, any state that has Mormon leaders are technically a theocracy, as the person is expected to do what the church says (though free will and all)
:roll: Yes, because every member of every church always does exactly as told. :roll:

Did you notice the Catholic theocracy when JFK was elected PotUS? No? Because there wasn't one.

It's a constant frustration to churches and fundies that when one of their own gain political power they tend to "stray' from the party line. The mere fact that a governor of a state (or any other elected official) is a Momron is not evidence that he is head of theocracy. The proof is not in what he believes but in what he does.

Certainly, in the case of Michigan, having a Mormon governor was in many ways a non-event. I can recall nothing that smelled Mormon when I lived in that state. You might as well argue that the election of a former Canadian citizen to governor of Michigan had them all learning French (badly) as a second language and converting to metric (didn't happen) or tattooing maple leaves on all their asses (I'm afraid to ask what is tattooed on people's asses, but I'm pretty sure it usually isn't a maple leaf).

Utah, given that the state is majority Mormon, might be a theocracy, but you have offered nothing that I would consider proof. Of course the governor of Utah is most likely a Mormon, just as the governor of Alabama is most likely a Baptist. The elected ruler is most likely going to resemble the majority of the constituents (though there are exceptions).
A better test of theocracy is the presence of religious rituals in government, or (especially) special treatment of religious beliefs in law. Mind you, most American states fail that test quite miserably, especially in terms of the way they treat gays. Not to mention the fact that Congress opens with a fucking public prayer.
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Post by Broomstick »

Darth Wong wrote:A better test of theocracy is the presence of religious rituals in government, or (especially) special treatment of religious beliefs in law. Mind you, most American states fail that test quite miserably, especially in terms of the way they treat gays. Not to mention the fact that Congress opens with a fucking public prayer.
However, in most instances involving public prayer in the US, such as the opening of Congress, at least some attempt is made to keep it non-denominational and inclusive. I realize that may not satisfy those who want no prayer at all, but since some of these bits are so non-specific that they could be uttered equally easily by any Christian or Jew, or even a Muslim, they are getting into pretty bland religion. A theocracy, on the other hand, would tend to be much more specific. Likewise, an established church of a nation could insist on highly-specific prayers. If the US insists on opening things with prayers, it also insists on making them inclusive of as broad an audience as possible in recgnition that no one sect is truly a majority, although larger groupings (such as "Protestant Chrisitans") may compose one.

The founders were highly opposed to an established church, but were welcoming of religious people entering public life. I realize that is not how many people here would arrange matters, but that is how we arrived where we currently are.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
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