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MKSheppard wrote:So I was flipping through Episode 3 on DVD yesterday while whiling away the hours in the only air conditioned room in the house (portable air conditioner); and I noticed that the movie could have been immensely improved by a few subtle and judicious edits:

• Add a scene based upon this sequence from the ROTS novelization, it lets you understand why Anakin was so upset he wasn't made a Jedi Master:
  

  The Jedi Temple also contained the archives, the vast library that encompassed the Order's entire twenty-five millennia of existence: everything from the widest-ranging cosmographical surveys to the intimate journals of a billion Jedi Knights. It was there Anakin hoped to find everything that was known about prophetic dreams—and everything that was known about pre­venting these prophecies from coming to pass.
  
  His only problem was that the deepest secrets of the greatest Masters of the Force were stored in restricted holocrons; since the Lorian Nod affair, some seventy standard years before, access to these holocrons was denied to all but Jedi Masters.

I'd also add the scene about how the Jedi KNOw that there is a Sith lord manipulating the Republic and in Palpatine's inner circle, with Obi-Wan telling Anakin that. It would take away most of the ammo for trying to make them look like powermongering douchebags by war's end, and help's explain themselves to Anakin a hell of a lot better.

As for the rest, I won't get into the argument, and it's been said before but still: Get rid of Hayden. Replace Portman with someone more enthusiastic and hopefully better chemistry with the new leading man. ("Your skin is soft. Not like sand" ). A tad more "grittyness" in the military aspects would have been nice - with the Clones on Geonosis, and more fleet battles, as opposed to the too strong focus on Starfighter action and idiotic drillsaw (as opposed to exploding) droids. Some better cheorography in the Final fight scenes (Palpatine, and Anakin & Obiwan not even aiming at each other and matching each other in raw force power).

Sith's ending suffered from Return of the King syndrome: shuffling through a thousand little "necessary" scenes to tie up loose ends and start packing up for the original trilogy. From a story perspective this might be necessary, but the execution is really flat and dull on screen. Also, the unending wipes scream "junior high kid with a classroom copy of iMovie".

Oh, and do something about James Earl Jones' "Noooooooooo": the Unintentional Comedy Scale is off the charts.

The battle at the start isn't bland because of x or y techno-tactical detail, it's bland because nothing that happens in it matters. In ANH and ROTJ there was a clear objective that needed to be accomplished, and everyone had a part to play - every loss and reverse was keenly felt. The Battle of Coruscant is just an empty though visually pretty thrill ride, filled with disposable toys and throwaway clones, signifying absolutely nothing - that a good chunk of it was taken up by hijinks with the idiotic buzz droids didn't help either.

Heck, Anakin and Obi-Wan don't even do anything in their fighters. If they were trying to develop their friendship with those hijinks, it didn't quite work. They were just spouting silly one liners at each other.

Personally, I think that before launching into a tirade about changing certain elements of the movie, you have to pass them by a person who's not a lifelong SW fan to see if that person agrees that the change would be an improvement. A lot of the things people grouse about are things that regular people don't give a shit about; that's the fanboy wanking that Elfdart referred to.

That's not to say the films are perfect as is, but when your idea for improvement is nothing more than geekservice, then maybe you need to rethink it.

Elfdart wrote:It's funny watching people use Spielberg, Kurtz, Kershner, even Lucas' ex-wife as ciphers for the idea that Lucas should have taken advice from them.

So the fact that Empire Strikes Back is considered to be the best SW movie flies by your head?

The more control that Lucas has over a project, the shittier it is; it's only when he has someone who can stand up to him and control his more stupid ideas that he does good work.

You know, one thing that's bothered me about the buzz droids apart from the inherent idiocy of the concept: If the missiles deploy them by getting in front of the target ship and releasing them so that the ship flies through the cloud of droids and they grab on, why didn't the missiles release the droids when they were in front of both fighters in the first place, rather than overshooting them and giving chase?

Vympel wrote:The battle at the start isn't bland because of x or y techno-tactical detail, it's bland because nothing that happens in it matters. In ANH and ROTJ there was a clear objective that needed to be accomplished, and everyone had a part to play - every loss and reverse was keenly felt. The Battle of Coruscant is just an empty though visually pretty thrill ride, filled with disposable toys and throwaway clones, signifying absolutely nothing - that a good chunk of it was taken up by hijinks with the idiotic buzz droids didn't help either.

And you nailed it head on; I don't think I can say it any better than that.

Rogue 9 wrote:You know, one thing that's bothered me about the buzz droids apart from the inherent idiocy of the concept

I think I was more annoyed that the buzz droids simply "slid" off the fighter.

Darth Wong wrote:I still remember all of the idiot fanboys who were upset that shitty EU ship designs didn't show up in the prequels.

I'm still annnoyed that they didn't even bother to show brand spanking new Y-Wings with their hull plating still on.

I think that's what makes the prequels fall down -- they seem to be their own self contained universe separate from the original trilogy -- there's no sense of continuity with the Original Trilogy; other than the design of the Clonetrooper's suits, the appearance of the Tantive IV, and of course, Yoda/Chewie.

Shouldn't all the military equipment that's been built for the clone wars (read, Y-Wings) be widely available as military surplus 20 years later (ANH)?

DEATH wrote:Get rid of Hayden. Replace Portman with someone more enthusiastic and hopefully better chemistry with the new leading man. ("Your skin is soft. Not like sand" ).

Hayden and Portman were okay. They just didn't have shit to work with as far as the script goes.

Illuminatus wrote:Goddammit, you don't name a set of terrible wars after your own troops

A-Men!

When I heard the term Clone Wars for the first time, I always imagined it being as a brutal war caused by evil meglomaniac leaders who spewed forth countless masses of identical clones against the Republic.

MKSheppard wrote:

Illuminatus wrote:Goddammit, you don't name a set of terrible wars after your own troops

A-Men!

When I heard the term Clone Wars for the first time, I always imagined it being as a brutal war caused by evil meglomaniac leaders who spewed forth countless masses of identical clones against the Republic.

It would have helped give tension to the series too, since an army of robots attacking an army of clones didn't give a sense of tragedy. They had to shoe horn in references of sieges and razing of whole planets to show how horrible the war was instead of showing it by having Republic people/citizens/aliens being wiped out by an evil approaching doom.

Granted, I give Lucas a bit of credit for the concept that the CIS has a legitimate beef and most of the laypeople who flocked to it's banner were...patriots? Just the leadership and the whole thing really was a shame by powermongers.

As I gather is, Shep's objections are primarily to the military parts of the film, which are abysmally portrayed. I concur fully with them all, and would add a general moratorium on Jedi leading platoons (or worse, 40k-esque charges into close combat) in the "Order 66" scenes. For Chaos's sake, these are supposed to be generals, not wanked-out 2nd lieutenants... Even Yoda is much too close to the actual action for his rank.

I would also heartily agree with those calling for better continuity and links to the original trilogy.

Oh, and ditch all the stupid "Look at us, we'd fit right into Pokémon!" silly 'droid jokes. The enemy are not supposed to be completely incompetent asshats that one can wave off as comic relief in a moderately serious film, and stunts like Artoo's with the SBDs belong in the "Go Flash Go" Gordon film, if there.

Other ideas would revolve around not making the Republic as insanely incompetent as it is, or making the Jedi more sympathetic so that the Sith do not (from strictly on-screen and prequel evidence) appear the lesser evil, but of those problems at least the former is more generally stretched across the entire prequel range.

Finally, someone must say it:

We did not get to see Jar Jar Binks die painfully! Burn the heretics responsible!

Knife wrote:It would have helped give tension to the series too, since an army of robots attacking an army of clones didn't give a sense of tragedy. They had to shoe horn in references of sieges and razing of whole planets to show how horrible the war was instead of showing it by having Republic people/citizens/aliens being wiped out by an evil approaching doom.

Granted, I give Lucas a bit of credit for the concept that the CIS has a legitimate beef and most of the laypeople who flocked to it's banner were...patriots? Just the leadership and the whole thing really was a shame by powermongers.

Lucas literally painted himself into a corner with all his "SELLZ TWOO TEH KIDDIES=MUCHO $$$" crap. He wanted a war, but could not show a serious one without making the films less kiddie-friendly. Hence, we have impersonal subhumans fighting silly, impersonal robots in Disney-style engagements. The end result is, unfortunately but predictably, detachment; the only feeling it evokes is "LWOOKZ TEH KEWL!!!11!" among the fanboys. The more mature viewer, seeing no reason to empathise with either side, only experiences a cheapened conflict without real depth, since ultimately no true sacrifice is made. It is one of the major personifications of the whole "Evil GL pisses over the old fans to attract lucrative kiddie buyers" view.

If one wishes to see what the Clone Wars should really have looked like, he should read the Republic comics, particularly the Battle for Jabiim story arc. Oh, it does have it problems, but it captures the actual feeling of civil war better than much anything else in the franchise.

MKSheppard wrote:

Illuminatus wrote:Goddammit, you don't name a set of terrible wars after your own troops

A-Men!

When I heard the term Clone Wars for the first time, I always imagined it being as a brutal war caused by evil meglomaniac leaders who spewed forth countless masses of identical clones against the Republic.

Shep, didn't you know that the French and Indian War really should be called the British Regulars and Militia War?

Clones versus droids sucked. First of all having fully autonomous droid militaries begs the question of why anyone bothers with so many meatbags in the first place, and is undesirable. Second of all, the only damn normal people we see in battle are Jedi; how are we supposed to identify with that? There was more moral gravity and solemn warfighting feel to Ewoks versus Stormtroopers in ROTJ.

Knife wrote:Just the leadership and the whole thing really was a shame by powermongers.

That's one thing I never really did like. Palpatine is so great that he can manipulate just about everyone, and see the future well enough to set into motion and control colossal galaxy spanning events, such as the Clone Wars, Grevious, etc etc yet, by the OT, he can't foresee and manipulate relatively simple events like:

• Preventing the Death Star I's destruction -- "Lord Vader, I want you to send out every starfighter there is." via holonet.
• Making sure that the Rebellion was crushed at Hoth -- "Lord Vader, execute Admiral Ozzel, and exit hyperspace within the orbit of the Sixth Planet"
• Having the precognition to issue standing orders to the people inside the Shield Generator bunker: "This is a direct order from your emperor; do not exit the bunker nor allow anyone in once a lockdown commences. Only I shall give the order to raise the lockdown."

His near-omniscience in setting up events in the Prequel trilogy just don't mesh with what we know of his control of events in the original trilogy.

Darth Hoth wrote:As I gather is, Shep's objections are primarily to the military parts of the film, which are abysmally portrayed. I concur fully with them all, and would add a general moratorium on Jedi leading platoons (or worse, 40k-esque charges into close combat) in the "Order 66" scenes. For Chaos's sake, these are supposed to be generals, not wanked-out 2nd lieutenants... Even Yoda is much too close to the actual action for his rank.

The impression I got from watching the film was that the Republic was crushing the CIS so badly that the generals stopped taking it seriously. Yoda was willing to watch the battle up close because he figured that the CIS was in retreat, and that his life wouldn't be threatened by the battle.

Oh, and ditch all the stupid "Look at us, we'd fit right into Pokémon!" silly 'droid jokes. The enemy are not supposed to be completely incompetent asshats that one can wave off as comic relief in a moderately serious film, and stunts like Artoo's with the SBDs belong in the "Go Flash Go" Gordon film, if there.

But isn't Star Wars supposed to appeal to a broad audience? For little kids, those silly jokes probably do a lot to offset the seriousness and intensity of the film.

We did not get to see Jar Jar Binks die painfully! Burn the heretics responsible!

Does any of the EU say exactly what happened to the Senators after the Republic was disbanded? I know they mentioned it at the beginning of ANH, but I don't recall them actually saying if the Senators were killed or anything.

MKSheppard wrote:

Knife wrote:Just the leadership and the whole thing really was a shame by powermongers.

That's one thing I never really did like. Palpatine is so great that he can manipulate just about everyone, and see the future well enough to set into motion and control colossal galaxy spanning events, such as the Clone Wars, Grevious, etc etc yet, by the OT, he can't foresee and manipulate relatively simple events like:

• Preventing the Death Star I's destruction -- "Lord Vader, I want you to send out every starfighter there is." via holonet.
• Making sure that the Rebellion was crushed at Hoth -- "Lord Vader, execute Admiral Ozzel, and exit hyperspace within the orbit of the Sixth Planet"
• Having the precognition to issue standing orders to the people inside the Shield Generator bunker: "This is a direct order from your emperor; do not exit the bunker nor allow anyone in once a lockdown commences. Only I shall give the order to raise the lockdown."

His near-omniscience in setting up events in the Prequel trilogy just don't mesh with what we know of his control of events in the original trilogy.

*1 and 2 can be explained away with him actually wanting the Rebellion to live, as it is no real threat but a good excuse for tightening security. In addition, it provides a scapegoat for the Empire's own sins. And in the Tarkin case, he also rid himself of a potential rival.

*3, however... no such luck. One has to put it down to TEH PRUFESSY, or, basically, fiat.

MKSheppard wrote:

Knife wrote:Just the leadership and the whole thing really was a shame by powermongers.

That's one thing I never really did like. Palpatine is so great that he can manipulate just about everyone, and see the future well enough to set into motion and control colossal galaxy spanning events, such as the Clone Wars, Grevious, etc etc yet, by the OT, he can't foresee and manipulate relatively simple events like:

• Preventing the Death Star I's destruction -- "Lord Vader, I want you to send out every starfighter there is." via holonet.
• Making sure that the Rebellion was crushed at Hoth -- "Lord Vader, execute Admiral Ozzel, and exit hyperspace within the orbit of the Sixth Planet"
• Having the precognition to issue standing orders to the people inside the Shield Generator bunker: "This is a direct order from your emperor; do not exit the bunker nor allow anyone in once a lockdown commences. Only I shall give the order to raise the lockdown."

His near-omniscience in setting up events in the Prequel trilogy just don't mesh with what we know of his control of events in the original trilogy.

He overlooks and fails to intervene in details throughout the Prequel Trilogy: he fails to get the treaty signed and foresee the death of his apprentice and defeat of the TradeFed, he didn't wise up to the fact Dooku/Tyranus was already trying to replace him and leak him to seduce Obi-Wan as an apprentice, he did not wise up to the fact he'd be stuck depending on Anakin getting the IH's landing just right (I doubt that was the plan), he failed to foresee Obi-Wan AND Yoda surviving O66, and he failed to foresee Vader would lose to Obi-Wan and nearly die or that Anakin had children with Padme.

Darth Hoth wrote:*1 and 2 can be explained away with him actually wanting the Rebellion to live, as it is no real threat but a good excuse for tightening security.

So he deliberately sacrificed a moon-sized battlestation; and gave a huge propaganda boost to the Rebellion to eliminate Tarkin?

Before Yavin, the Rebellion was a low key thing; after Yavin, people thought that the Rebellion did have a chance against the Empire.

Anyway, you can still blow up Yavin IV and still keep the rebellion alive; wasn't there a line about them evacuating some people from it, but Leia refused to go?

Same thing extends to Hoth; much of the Rebellion's equipment managed to get off the planet, giving them once again a huge morale boost.

CaptainZoidberg wrote:The impression I got from watching the film was that the Republic was crushing the CIS so badly that the generals stopped taking it seriously. Yoda was willing to watch the battle up close because he figured that the CIS was in retreat, and that his life wouldn't be threatened by the battle.

It is still stupid. But that is the best rationalisation I can think of. Either that, or the Jedi did not really lead the campaign, but were a token symbol for morale purposes or whatnots.

But isn't Star Wars supposed to appeal to a broad audience? For little kids, those silly jokes probably do a lot to offset the seriousness and intensity of the film.

The original trilogy did well without them. Or at least, such is my opinion.

Does any of the EU say exactly what happened to the Senators after the Republic was disbanded? I know they mentioned it at the beginning of ANH, but I don't recall them actually saying if the Senators were killed or anything.

Not killed, or even deposed, as various sources ret-con the Senate's disbanding as being temporary. You have Senator Greyshade, for one example; in the X-wing comic, two other (albeit unnamed) Senators chat amiably with Baron Fel (soon after his promotion from (Navy) Captain to Major ) and comment that the closing of the Senate gives them more spare time (and that is not implied to be a bad thing).

(Interestingly, as an anecdote, both also claim to have served as pilots in the Clone Wars...)

Darth Hoth wrote:For Chaos's sake, these are supposed to be generals, not wanked-out 2nd lieutenants... Even Yoda is much too close to the actual action for his rank.

What would you have them do, paperwork? The Jedi are wasted if you don't put them on the frontlines. You can argue that it's stupid (and without a doubt politically-motivated) to make them generals, but having them in ur base, killing ur d00ds is the only real use for Jedi barring battle meditation.

I see it as a bit of anachronistic neofeudalism (in keeping with their role as "Knights of the Republic"). And even if the armies "belong" to the HJGs I'll bet anything each had a proper chain of command that actually ran the show but was forced to answer to their HJG for political reasons.

The Jedi generals should be battle-mediation and organization geniuses; they have mentalic power available for absurd performance. The rest of the Jedi, deploy them as spies, recon, special insertion/special forces troops, etc. They're wasted on the front line where excessive stand-off firepower can waste them; they belong behind enemy lines wreaking havoc.

MKSheppard wrote:So he deliberately sacrificed a moon-sized battlestation; and gave a huge propaganda boost to the Rebellion to eliminate Tarkin?

Before Yavin, the Rebellion was a low key thing; after Yavin, people thought that the Rebellion did have a chance against the Empire.

Anyway, you can still blow up Yavin IV and still keep the rebellion alive; wasn't there a line about them evacuating some people from it, but Leia refused to go?

Same thing extends to Hoth; much of the Rebellion's equipment managed to get off the planet, giving them once again a huge morale boost.

These are post facto attempts to rationalise his apparently lacking perceptions. They are far from foolproof. However, if one stretches things a little in order to maintain internal consistency, they are possible. Losing one battlestation might, after all, be worth it to be rid of a potentially dangerous rival in a galaxy that has the Empire's industrial capacity and no real use for the station in the first place. And the Rebels might well need that morale boost if they are to survive at all as a coherent entity.

Alternatively, one could perhaps figure that Palpatine did not view anything considering the Rebellion as important enough to warrant his close attention, it being as minuscule as it actually was. The only factor he focused on was the Force-users, Vader and Skywalker.

Why can't he just make mistakes and not account for every detail, as opposed to big picture stuff? Did everyone just ignore my list of prequels flubs?