So Much for Tasers Being Non Lethal

[Graeme Dice]

What is Excited Delirium?

It's a fictitious condition that the police have created in order to avoid having to admit that they often don't bother to provide proper medical treatment.

[Silver Jedi]

But Winnfield police Lt. Chuck Curry said ..."He done what he thought he was trained to do to bring that subject into custody. At some point, something happened with his body that caused him to go into cardiac arrest or whatever."

Slightly OT, but Jesus Christ! This guy makes the Duke brothers sound like Rhodes Scholars! And he's an Lt.

[General Zod]

But Winnfield police Lt. Chuck Curry said ..."He done what he thought he was trained to do to bring that subject into custody. At some point, something happened with his body that caused him to go into cardiac arrest or whatever."

Slightly OT, but Jesus Christ! This guy makes the Duke brothers sound like Rhodes Scholars! And he's an Lt.

Well, it is in Louisiana, so you can't be too surprised.

[Kamakazie Sith]

What is Excited Delirium? I googled this phenomena but pretty much all of the hits mentioned it in connection with police action, especially in cases of deaths following tasering or close restraint. This is a little suspicious, but could be due more to the media only paying attention to it when the police report it. But then again, it isn't recognized by the AMA or the APA, and does not appear in the DSM-IV. Taken together that makes a bit of a credibility problem.

You missed that it has been accepted by the National Association of Medical Examiners. Anyway, excited delirium is a term that is controversial so I'll withdraw it for now.

Listing something as a "contributing factor" in an accidental death is misleading. It's a simple question: would the victim have died, had he not been tasered? If the answer is no, then we have an approximate cause of death.

The answer is we don't know. They can't attribute the cause of death directly to the taser, and they can't say that if he hadn't been tased then he would not have died.

I mean, say you've got a freight elevator that can move 2 tons safely, and we have 3 tons of stuff. I come in and put 2 tons of gear on it, and then go upstairs so I'm there to unload it. Meantime, you load the remaining ton on it, the cable snaps, and everything plummets to the bottom of the shaft, total SNAFU. Now, do we say that you fucked our shit up by overloading the elevator, or do we say that it was a "contributing factor" in the accident, and in fact I was the responsible party because overall I put more weight on it?

It's not the same though. Everyone assumes the taser must have killed the person because it was used, and someone died. However, you don't see people blaming handcuffs when someone who died was simply just handcuffed.

Obviously the police can't be expected to ask every belligerent and dangerous suspect if he has a heart condition or has been using stimulants, but given that tasers have been listed as a "contributing factor" in some deaths, they should probably be used with care. In this case, they weren't, and I'm pleased to see that the offender is being dealt with appropriately.

You and me both. The reason I came into this thread is it seems like the real issue here has been overlooked because tasers were involved. The real issue is that an officer with an unusual number of taser deployments, and other use of force situations was never investigated. Another issue is that this department doesn't require EMS evaluation after taser deployment.

On the other hand, I have to ask what would have happened if the victim had been tasered nine times, including several times while under restraint, and hadn't died. If there hadn't been a serious mishap that forced an investigation, would the officer have faced any repercussions at all? Judging by the fact that he was zapping people left and right before the incident without cause for concern, I guess not.

That's the real issue. That's the issue that should be the topic of this thread, and not the ridiculous attack on a tool.

Your link doesn't work for me.

I guess you need to login. Sorry. I'll see if I can find another like it. Here's the page where other studies are located.

Studies

The abstract claims the study demonstrates that the taser lacks the power to directly affect the heart, which I'm prepared to believe, but it doesn't say anything about whether the primary effects of the taser on the victim (convulsions, pain, disorientation, etc.) can cause cardiac events as a secondary effect.

It doesn't. Do we know of any other studies that paint the taser as the cause of death?

[Kamakazie Sith]

What is Excited Delirium?

It's a fictitious condition that the police have created in order to avoid having to admit that they often don't bother to provide proper medical treatment.

Used as a scapegoat for improper use of force, and failure to follow policies - Sure. A fictitious condition - Not so much.

[Graeme Dice]

Used as a scapegoat for improper use of force, and failure to follow policies - Sure. A fictitious condition - Not so much.

It's a condition that only appears when dealing with people who die in police custody, and nowhere else, so yes, it's a fictitious condition.

[Melchior]

Tasers are surely able to unequivocally cause fatal ventricular arrhythmias in sedated, unexcited pigs, on the other hand.

[Death from the Sea]

Tasers are surely able to unequivocally cause fatal ventricular arrhythmias in sedated, unexcited pigs, on the other hand.

yeah but your drugging those pigs. drugs interact poorly with the taser.

[Death from the Sea]

plus the taser is designed for people, not animals. The taser regularly kills dogs when used on them.

[Death from the Sea]

handcuffs do not automatically make a suspect incapable of doing harm, so that idea really doesn't work.

I agree with you because I've heard a lot of the local police bitch about how uncontrollable meth addicts can be.
That said, if an autopsy reveals the dead suspect to have been both drug and alcohol free, then the cop had better have videotape of the suspect resisting even after arrest and handcuffing, or I'm voting to convict the SOB if I were on the jury.

I am not saying this guy was in the right, and I agree he needs alot of justification for his actions.

[General Zod]

Used as a scapegoat for improper use of force, and failure to follow policies - Sure. A fictitious condition - Not so much.

Does this condition appear in any well known peer reviewed journals? What kind of studies have been done on this? Or can I safely dismiss it as bullshit?

[Melchior]

yeah but your drugging those pigs. drugs interact poorly with the taser.

Actually, they are not given anything that would make the use of taser more dangerous: they were just anaesthetized.
Anyway, there is almost no such thing as an harmless current, when we are talking about the human body being used as a conductor, IRC, you need just 50mA through the heart to die.

[Melchior]

Does this condition appear in any well known peer reviewed journals? What kind of studies have been done on this? Or can I safely dismiss it as bullshit?

It appears in the context of case studies of cases where it was claimed as the cause of death; AFAIK, the actual cause of death is almost every time suffocation due to excessive restraint.

[General Zod]

Does this condition appear in any well known peer reviewed journals? What kind of studies have been done on this? Or can I safely dismiss it as bullshit?

It appears in the context of case studies of cases where it was claimed as the cause of death; AFAIK, the actual cause of death is almost every time suffocation due to excessive restraint.

So basically it's bullshit? Good to know.

[Melchior]

So basically it's bullshit? Good to know.

The complex part of the situation is that if you struggle violently you can suffocate even when under reasonable restraint.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Used as a scapegoat for improper use of force, and failure to follow policies - Sure. A fictitious condition - Not so much.

It's a condition that only appears when dealing with people who die in police custody, and nowhere else, so yes, it's a fictitious condition.

Wrong, it has been cited as the cause of death in a the death of a psychiatric patient

And again it has been accepted by the National Association of Medical Examiners.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Used as a scapegoat for improper use of force, and failure to follow policies - Sure. A fictitious condition - Not so much.

Does this condition appear in any well known peer reviewed journals? What kind of studies have been done on this? Or can I safely dismiss it as bullshit?

Not that I'm aware of which is why I stated that I would withdraw it from the discussion.

[Kamakazie Sith]

yeah but your drugging those pigs. drugs interact poorly with the taser.

Actually, they are not given anything that would make the use of taser more dangerous: they were just anaesthetized.
Anyway, there is almost no such thing as an harmless current, when we are talking about the human body being used as a conductor, IRC, you need just 50mA through the heart to die.

Tasers don't hit you with anything near 50mA it's more around 2.1mA.

[Graeme Dice]

Wrong, it has been cited as the cause of death in a the death of a psychiatric patient

Let's post the title of the article, so that we can see how ridiculous your statement is: "Death of a psychiatric patient during physical restraint. Excited delirium--a case report." It's something that only happens when people are physically restrained. Calling it "excited delirium" is nothing more than a whitewash over the actual cause of death, the physical restraint.

And again it has been accepted by the National Association of Medical Examiners.

That's unfortunate and a stain on their record.

[Darth Wong]

"Excited delirium" sounds like a description of a person's mental state during sex, not a description of a guy suffocating himself by struggling against restraints.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

More Taser Torture: Cop repeatedly tasers teenage boy with broken back, severely aggravating the injury. Reason? 'He didn't get up when asked to'

OZARK, Mo. -- A family wants answers about what happened to their son that left him hospitalized. Early Saturday morning, police found Mace Hutchinson, 16, underneath the Highway F overpass over U.S. 65.

Mace ended up in intensive care at a hospital. His parents believe the actions of Ozark police officers contributed to his injuries and slowed doctors’ abilities to speed his recovery.

“We called the police. My wife was afraid he was going to get ran over or hit,” said witness Doug Messersmith.

Messersmith and his wife were the last known people to see 16-year-old boy walking, shortly before their phone call to 911.

“He looked a little agitated but, other than that, he didn't look to be falling down drunk or anything like that,” he said.

By the time officers arrived, the teen was off the 30-foot overpass, lying on the shoulder below along U.S. 65, with no good explanation as to how he got there.

“According to the doctors, all injuries are consistent with a fall,” said his aunt, Samantha.

Mace's dad believes it was just that, a fall, not a jump. The question is why.

“They tested his system. He was clean of drugs and alcohol. We don't know why unless just being in shock and the whole thing in itself caused him to forget everything,” said Hutchinson.

His aunt says he is undergoing major surgery for a broken back and broken heel. While he was lying on the ground, she wonders why Ozark police used an electric stun gun on him up to 19 times.

“I'm not an officer, but i don't see the reason for ‘Tasering’ somebody laying there with a broken back. I don't consider that a threat,”

His dad says the use of the stun gun delayed what would have been immediate surgery by two days.

“The ‘Tasering’ increased his white blood cell count and caused him to have a temperature so they could not go into the operation.”

“He refused to comply with the officers and so the officers had to deploy their Tasers in order to subdue him. He is making incoherent statements; he's also making statements such as, ‘Shoot cops, kill cops,’ things like that. So there was cause for concern to the officers,” said Ozark Police Capt. Thomas Rousset.

Police say although there are several unanswered questions; the reason for the use of a stun gun is not one of them.

“It's a big concern for the officers to keep this guy out of traffic, to keep him from getting hurt,” said Rousset.

Mace was still in intensive care on Wednesday night, listed in fair condition. He was scheduled for surgery again on Thursday. The family, along with the Ozark Police Department, hopes someone will see this report and come forward with some information. You can call (417) 699-4789 with information or call the Ozark Police Department.

[Death from the Sea]

not justifying the police action taken, but why was the kid saying to kill cops? sounds like there is more to that story than we are being told. And the dad is the one saying he was clean, he could be lying.

[Keevan_Colton]

not justifying the police action taken, but why was the kid saying to kill cops? sounds like there is more to that story than we are being told. And the dad is the one saying he was clean, he could be lying.

It's just the cops that tazered the crap out of him that apparently heard him say these things, they've got a damn fine motive to lie.

[Keevan_Colton]

why was the kid saying to kill cops?

A theory springs to mind actually...with fuckheads like you and them wearing the uniforms, preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey standpoint...

[Winston Blake]

There are clearly a lot of cops out there that are getting off on causing a lot of pain to their victim with the touch of the button. Maybe making it so easy to torture someone isn't a good thing?

Even without the taser it would still be easy for police like this guy to hurt people. The taser is painful, but being hit in the face by a baton hurts a lot more.

It's a little harder to get away with hitting someone in the face twice... after they stopped twitching from the previous 7 strikes. Or to keep hitting an injured kid in the face as a 'pain compliance technique' because he wouldn't 'follow instructions'. I'm not against tasers in general, but I do think that these examples show current regulation to be insufficient.