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Posted: **2008-08-03 04:03pm**

Darth Hoth wrote:
Palpatine was a traitor,
A very serious accusation for which the Jedi had absolutely zero evidence. I also like how you sidestep the issue that Mace Windu was about to depose him even before a notoriously paranoid and psychologically distraught individual provided the sole testimony. No court in the Western World would act on such "proof", let alone against the head of state in the middle of a war, and the Jedi clearly did not care either way as they went to assume power.

I understand what you are saying, and I think why the Jedi are not considered at fault by some is because since 1977 out of universe we have only heard about how they were the great defenders of peace and justice, and how Emperor Palpatine was the very definition of evil, which isn't to say he isn't but these are just the ideas that were placed in ANH, and when we see the events happen, we assume that the Jedi are in the right to go after the evil man who will claim to be Emporer, not the actual events of a monastic-knightly order who goes and attempts to arrest the legal authority in the name of a group that was never consulted. The attempted arresting was akin to a group of armed Christian fundamentalist trying to arrest Bush II int the name of Congress because God told them to

Posted: **2008-08-03 06:08pm**

Imperial Overlord wrote:Publius's work addresses the legal basis of arresting Palpatine, which is to say the Jedi were arresting him illegally and leading a coup. This should not be confused with the reality of Palpatine's guilt (he most certainly was in the process of overthrowing the Republic, was responsible for countless deaths and helping engineer a horrific civil war) or the Jedi's correct assessment that Palpatine intended to become a dictator. The legal structure of the Republic and the amount of reliable evidence they had on hand would be insufficient to convict in a court of law and the Jedi's legal authority derives from the Supreme Chancellor's office so they have no legal authority with which to arrest him.

That they are consciously breaking the law doesn't make them "the bad guys" or evil. The audience knows better than the Jedi how much blood is on Palpatine's hands and the results of him being in power will be. Legally speaking, the entire Rebel Alliance are traitors even though they are clearly the good guys in the original trilogy.

I was looking at the legality of their actions. Of course, I also think their own interests, personal or as an Order, played a large part in why they wanted Palpatine out of office, though they did have a legitimate concern after Anakin's story (not enough to arrest or depose him, but certainly to investigate). I do maintain that Windu's conduct was treasonous and that the Jedi could have handled the whole affair much better (even from their own point of view; this would merely require them to stop and plan for a moment).

Posted: **2008-08-03 06:32pm**

Legally it was treason. On the other hand, they had no effective legal mechanisms of removing Palpatine from power. He had already tipped his hand by centralizing even more authority in his person even after Dooku was dead and Grievous and the Separatiss Council were in hiding. The Jedi were in a shitty spot even with Palpatine being Sidious. The outcomes of their of actions is inarguably disastrous for them and the Republic.

I don't think they're blinded by conflict of interest. The Order's insulation from the normal affairs of the galaxy does seem to have left them with significant blind spots and overconfidence bordering on hubris.

Posted: **2008-08-05 02:03am**

It appears that somewhere between, at least, AotC and RotS Anakin had become mentally unstable, probably due to his mother's death, his shame over both the destruction of the Tusken Raiders and his illicit affair with Padme. Could the stress of fighting in the Clone Wars also been a factor? He seemed to be almost happy when in combat.

Posted: **2008-08-05 08:39am**

The comic arc I mentioned earlier would arguably be that point, if there is one.

Posted: **2008-08-05 10:09am**

Crom wrote:It appears that somewhere between, at least, AotC and RotS Anakin had become mentally unstable, probably due to his mother's death, his shame over both the destruction of the Tusken Raiders and his illicit affair with Padme. Could the stress of fighting in the Clone Wars also been a factor? He seemed to be almost happy when in combat.

Indeed, a self destructive path. Even though it's life or death it is simpler than complex emotional attachments and moral quandaries Anakin is wrapped up in.

He's disassociating himself from his troubles by being a good Knight in battle. That's my take anyway, rather than socialpathy or psychosis.

Posted: **2008-08-05 12:57pm**

He's always dreamed of being a hero, which is not exactly the same as wanting to be a good person. A hero is one who is courageous, or a great warrior, or endowed with superior abilities, like the Greek heroes of old. He is not necessarily a kind or generous or even moral person.

His actions in the Clone Wars no doubt made him feel good about himself, because he was playing the part of the hero. The complex interactions on Coruscant made him feel like anything but a hero: he was skulking about, keeping secrets from others. And when the two groups to which he had allied himself became enemies, he didn't know which side to join because to him, it was all about being a hero, not about serving any kind of ethical principle.

Posted: **2008-08-19 07:20pm**

Darth Hoth wrote:
ExarKun wrote:I hope you're being sarcastic there
No, I very much am not.

Palpatine was a traitor,
A very serious accusation for which the Jedi had absolutely zero evidence. I also like how you sidestep the issue that Mace Windu was about to depose him even before a notoriously paranoid and psychologically distraught individual provided the sole testimony. No court in the Western World would act on such "proof", let alone against the head of state in the middle of a war, and the Jedi clearly did not care either way as they went to assume power.

so he had no legitimacy whatsoever.
He was the duly elected and inaugurated head of state and government of the Galactic Republic, who had - as far as anyone knew - executed his duties spectacularly well and fully within the spirit and letter of the law. He certainly had more authority, whether meant to be moral or legal, than an antidemocratic monastic order with coincidental vast influence in the running of matters of state. The Jedi even specifically stated that he must be assassinated because the Courts would never take their case seriously.

It was the duty of the Jedi to arrest him/kill him.
Duty to their own Order at most, certainly not the Galactic Republic. There are a few things you might have heard of called "due process", "rule of law" and "innocent till proven guilty". You do not, whether as a private citizen or a police or military officer, go around killing people and couping democratic governments because you think that someone might be a criminal; if you do, it is you who belong behind bars or in the chair.

This matter has been discussed at length earlier; member Publius has argued this point more persuasively than I ever could. Perform a search.

EDIT: You need not search: Here is the thread in question.

Was it not stated that Palpatine had maintained his term of office well beyond all legal allowances? That in and of itself would be a criminal act.

The Jedi though had a bit of a stretch to show up to remove him. To be technical though Palpy drew his weapon first and struck down two of the Jedi before they even began to move against him. IS it legal today to start shooting at cops if they point their guns at you and say they are going to arrest you even if it is for false charges?

Finally you say they acted on the words of one unstable person. But for all we knew once Anakin said "duh he is a Sith lord" the light side of the force may have parted enough for them to sense the truth in the matter.

Posted: **2008-08-19 07:28pm**

Darth Wong wrote:He's always dreamed of being a hero, which is not exactly the same as wanting to be a good person. A hero is one who is courageous, or a great warrior, or endowed with superior abilities, like the Greek heroes of old. He is not necessarily a kind or generous or even moral person.

His actions in the Clone Wars no doubt made him feel good about himself, because he was playing the part of the hero. The complex interactions on Coruscant made him feel like anything but a hero: he was skulking about, keeping secrets from others. And when the two groups to which he had allied himself became enemies, he didn't know which side to join because to him, it was all about being a hero, not about serving any kind of ethical principle.

Anakin was Hercules. Able to do great things at certain times based on his abilities but also so deeply scarred that without proper control and guidelines he would fall into horrible acts as well.

Doesnt really matter. The Jedi Order pretty much guarunteed he would fall when they didnt have enough brains to send a rep to buy his mothers freedom and set her up in a nice home somewhere in the nicer parts of the Republic. Leaving her as an unknown in his mind really hurt him. But then this was outside the experiences of the Jedi and they didnt think outside the box at all.

Posted: **2008-08-19 07:29pm**

Timotheus wrote:
Was it not stated that Palpatine had maintained his term of office well beyond all legal allowances? That in and of itself would be a criminal act.

The Senate extended Palpatine's powers and tenure of office. It was legal, but a gross distortion of democratic government. The Jedi had no legal authority to arrest Palpatine because their authority derives from the Supreme Chancellor's office. Palpatine's overt actions have been legal and they have no authority to arrest him because their authority to arrest people comes from him. They were in a bind and Windu attempted a coup in order to remove a would be dictator from power and restore democratic government. He was intent on doing this even before knowing Palpatine was a Sith Lord. It was a desperate act, but understandable.

Posted: **2008-08-19 07:34pm**

Imperial Overlord wrote:
Timotheus wrote:
Was it not stated that Palpatine had maintained his term of office well beyond all legal allowances? That in and of itself would be a criminal act.
The Senate extended Palpatine's powers and tenure of office. It was legal, but a gross distortion of democratic government. The Jedi had no legal authority to arrest Palpatine because their authority derives from the Supreme Chancellor's office. Palpatine's overt actions have been legal and they have no authority to arrest him because their authority to arrest people comes from him. They were in a bind and Windu attempted a coup in order to remove a would be dictator from power and restore democratic government. He was intent on doing this even before knowing Palpatine was a Sith Lord. It was a desperate act, but understandable.

Not that it would matter here since they decided to act before knowing but could being a Sith be a criminal act unto itself within the Republic? The Jedi sure wouldnt want anyone going and trying to study to be one and letting someone become a Sith then stopping them once they break a law would be a pain in the ass and could get Jedi killed when not necessary.

Posted: **2008-08-19 08:02pm**

The novelization indicates that holding Sith beliefs is quite legal under the Republic's freedom of religion laws. The old Sith Lords were members of enemy states and/or insurrections against the Republic, which covers them quite nicely. Palpatine is of course guilty of formenting insurrection, treason, a huge number of murders, and sundry other crimes but the evidence for them has been concealed and he has control of most of the courts.

In short the Jedi are boned. They don't have the authority to arrest him, they don't have enough evidence regarding his crimes, and they don't have reliable courts to turn him over to. They can either act against him illegally or watch him take over.

Posted: **2008-08-19 08:03pm**

Timotheus wrote:
Not that it would matter here since they decided to act before knowing but could being a Sith be a criminal act unto itself within the Republic? The Jedi sure wouldnt want anyone going and trying to study to be one and letting someone become a Sith then stopping them once they break a law would be a pain in the ass and could get Jedi killed when not necessary.

I do believe that the novel has a small quip about that in it. In that Windu confronts Palpatine on that issue and Palpatine says the Republic has laws about discriminating against people and their religion.

Posted: **2008-08-19 08:25pm**

Knife wrote:
Timotheus wrote:
Not that it would matter here since they decided to act before knowing but could being a Sith be a criminal act unto itself within the Republic? The Jedi sure wouldnt want anyone going and trying to study to be one and letting someone become a Sith then stopping them once they break a law would be a pain in the ass and could get Jedi killed when not necessary.
I do believe that the novel has a small quip about that in it. In that Windu confronts Palpatine on that issue and Palpatine says the Republic has laws about discriminating against people and their religion.

I can see a very specific exemption being made for Sith since "worshipping" or even studying the religion too close will actually warp the person into something evil.

Would be like legalizing most drugs but making an exception for angel dust because of how dangerous it makes someone taking it.

Posted: **2008-08-19 08:48pm**

Timotheus wrote:
I can see a very specific exemption being made for Sith since "worshipping" or even studying the religion too close will actually warp the person into something evil.

Would be like legalizing most drugs but making an exception for angel dust because of how dangerous it makes someone taking it.

That's a nice opinion, but the novelization is specifically referring to Sith beliefs so no, that's not the case. Besides, the Sith philosophy/religion doesn't magically turn people evil just by hearing about it.

Posted: **2008-08-19 10:04pm**

Imperial Overlord wrote:
Timotheus wrote:
I can see a very specific exemption being made for Sith since "worshipping" or even studying the religion too close will actually warp the person into something evil.

Would be like legalizing most drugs but making an exception for angel dust because of how dangerous it makes someone taking it.
That's a nice opinion, but the novelization is specifically referring to Sith beliefs so no, that's not the case. Besides, the Sith philosophy/religion doesn't magically turn people evil just by hearing about it.

But according to the EU the various Sith artifacts can.

Posted: **2008-08-19 10:20pm**

Timotheus wrote:
But according to the EU the various Sith artifacts can.

We weren't talking about artifacts, we were talking about knowledge of Sith philosophies. Artifacts are entirely different ball of wax. Holocrons imprinted with the personalities of corrupt and manipulative Sith who will try to make use of those who activate them and devices that require you to draw upon the Dark Side aren't a philosophy or a religion. They are quite dangerous but so, for example, would be an amoral and selfish droid brain. That doesn't mean understanding Ayn Rand's bullshit philosophy will make me a sociopath.

Posted: **2008-08-20 03:02pm**

Imperial Overlord wrote:
Timotheus wrote:
But according to the EU the various Sith artifacts can.
We weren't talking about artifacts, we were talking about knowledge of Sith philosophies. Artifacts are entirely different ball of wax. Holocrons imprinted with the personalities of corrupt and manipulative Sith who will try to make use of those who activate them and devices that require you to draw upon the Dark Side aren't a philosophy or a religion. They are quite dangerous but so, for example, would be an amoral and selfish droid brain. That doesn't mean understanding Ayn Rand's bullshit philosophy will make me a sociopath.

So basically you cannot outlaw Christianity, just the Bible. Or at least the Sith versions of the bible being the holocrons.

I would imagine one would get a very liimited superficial weekend warrior type of study of Sith if you stuck to just the safe readings though.

Posted: **2008-08-20 05:12pm**

Sith holocrons are not like the Bible. They are data stores containing information and malevolent, manipulative personalities. That's more than a little different from a book. Only the Old Sith bothered to make such things and they seemed to serve the purpose of making new converts to the Sith cause by manipulating the user into performing corrupt acts or preparing vessels to be possessed by Sith spirits, allowing them to try and cheat death. Sith holocrons aren't repositories of knowledge, they're traps that use knowledge as bait.

Posted: **2008-08-20 07:08pm**

Palpatine probably played a role in feeding some of his self-absorption, ego, and pride - I get the impression that basically from early one when he arrived in Coruscant to the events of ROTC that Palpatine was constantly telling him, "You're the best, you're always right" and so forth.

Posted: **2008-08-22 03:38am**

Imperial Overlord wrote:The novelization indicates that holding Sith beliefs is quite legal under the Republic's freedom of religion laws. The old Sith Lords were members of enemy states and/or insurrections against the Republic, which covers them quite nicely. Palpatine is of course guilty of formenting insurrection, treason, a huge number of murders, and sundry other crimes but the evidence for them has been concealed and he has control of most of the courts.

In short the Jedi are boned. They don't have the authority to arrest him, they don't have enough evidence regarding his crimes, and they don't have reliable courts to turn him over to. They can either act against him illegally or watch him take over.

It is worth noting two things:

Had the jedi succeeded in killing Palpatine, something that may have happened without Anakin's intervention, their actions would have probably been made retroactively legal by a grateful senate.

The second, had they taken him to court, no amount of evidence in the galaxy would have convicted him.

Posted: **2008-08-22 04:52am**

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
It is worth noting two things:

Had the jedi succeeded in killing Palpatine, something that may have happened without Anakin's intervention, their actions would have probably been made retroactively legal by a grateful senate.

Which they would have puppetised by then, but yes.

The second, had they taken him to court, no amount of evidence in the galaxy would have convicted him.

Any objective evidence to back up Windu's POV?

Posted: **2008-08-22 11:31am**

Darth Hoth wrote:
Which they would have puppetised by then, but yes.

Any objective evidence to back up that notion?

Posted: **2008-08-22 11:42am**

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Had the jedi succeeded in killing Palpatine, something that may have happened without Anakin's intervention, their actions would have probably been made retroactively legal by a grateful senate.

Why would the Senate be grateful, the jedi just killed a beloved statesmen, who led the country in a time of war. Why would the Senate applaud that?

Alyrium Denryle wrote:The second, had they taken him to court, no amount of evidence in the galaxy would have convicted him.

Of Which they had no evidence, at all.

Posted: **2008-08-22 11:59am**

Guardsman Bass wrote:Palpatine probably played a role in feeding some of his self-absorption, ego, and pride - I get the impression that basically from early one when he arrived in Coruscant to the events of ROTC that Palpatine was constantly telling him, "You're the best, you're always right" and so forth.

ROTC?

Palpatine and Ani were at the Reserve Officer's Training Corps?

Okay, so this won't be a total spam-post.

Personally, I think Palpatine manufactured the whole sequence of events as to go "kablooey" if ever he fucked up. Just like how in the post-ROTJ, the Empire basically started schisming after the Emperor was killed, Palpatine was probably like "if I can't rule the universe, then there will BE NO UNIVERSE" and so his plan had mechanisms to ensure spitefulness if ever he met his untimely demise.

If Windu did kill Palpatine, I don't think the Jedi would've made it through unscathed. The Senate and the Palpatine-loving peoples (come on, Palpatine was loved - they voted him to be an Emperor) would've crucified the Jedi. Public opinion on the Jedi weren't at an all-time high, just look at how fast it was for Palpatine to gain support for massacring them.

But not everyone were pro-Palpatine. We'd have guys like Organa and Mothra (yes, Mothra). They MIGHT aid the Jedi if the Jedi produced convincing evidence of Palpatine's treachery.

But I doubt everyone would bother with this evidence. Basically, if Windu lopped Palpatine's head off, then the Republic would inevitably degenerate into a real Galactic Civil War.

(And I highly doubt the Seperatists would be able to attain a decisive victory against an entire galaxy, even one at war with itself.)

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