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Karmic Knight wrote:Two things:
1.I'm going to add this to the "Build your nation" thread, that fine?
2. This is using the points laid out by Beowulf's system, correct?

They are compatible, I think; I just took the value trends I noticed from Beo's idea and simply bundled it into "package deals".. instead of buying, say, 120 armored personnel carriers and figuring out how to distribute them among 2000 of troops, I just made a Brigade, included the equipment it needed, and made it all one buy.

Note that I added a modifier to the "ELITE KIT" of Transport Aviation-- they get fixed-wing heavy gunships now, too, although there is a limit per country level, like most "Elite" forces.

Beowulf wrote:I think that's supposed to replace the army section of my system.

Streamline it, was my intent.

I was making an Infatry Battalion and I was looking up definitions of "Battalion" "Brigade" "Division" and th elike on Wiki to get a general idea of exact numbers and equipment, and I ran across the Brigade Combat Team article where everything was laid out.

I started lining up the purchases with the points ("...artillery, that's my Alpha Battery, so I need, um, .75 of a point... there's 7 men per gun, 6 guns per company, so for my Artillerry I need 200 guys for gun crew plus ammo handlers and...")

In other words, it was getting mind-boggling, and realized "wouldn't it be easier to just figure out what a fully-loaded Brigade costs and just charge that?" So I did, and made modifiers for Training and Equipment to allow for a bit of variety (and cost savings in some cases). It also allowed for some flexibility within armies (an all conscript-trained and conscript-equipped army allows for one or two Legacy Brigades with Elite kit, etc, to serve as "Royal Guards" or something).

The fighters and fixed wing transports are already covered under the air force section.

The thing is, if I work out my army with Beowulf's system I end up with roughly 3 brigades (2 mech inf, one airborne) for 70 points. But under Coyote's system, the same deal costs me 33 points.

In other words, unless I've made some horrid mistake somewhere I can literally buy twice the army for Coyote's system that I can buy with Beowulf's. That's, well, a bit odd...

My Lego block system is presented for discussion-- it's not necessarily final.

EDIT:
One thing I particularly like about my version of the system is the Training and Equipment Modifiers, which allow for some variety. If the costs for my stuff is too cheap, one way to alleviate that is to up the cost in points for either the base units, or the Training and Equipment mods.

Beowulf wrote:The fighters and fixed wing transports are already covered under the air force section.

These I organized into air forces specifically tailored for Army use. It is a reflection of my prejudices in that I would allow for tactical fixed-wing assets be available as part of an Army Air Corps so the Air Force can be free to concentrate on strategic defense, bombing, and high-altitude interception.

The Army, if allowed more air assets, would not necessarily organize or deploy them the same way the Air Force would, after all --different priorities, different ideas about what air power is for, etc.

Coyote wrote:My Lego block system is presented for discussion-- it's not necessarily final.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm quite attracted to your system because I like its simplicity. It wouldn't change much in my OOB anyhow -- one or two regiments might change from one battalion to two, but that'd be about it.

Posted the beginning of Old Dominion involvement in WW2

Thank you for your system, Coyote! It has let me complete my army!

Lonestar wrote:Posted the beginning of Old Dominion involvement in WW2

Sir Robin!

PROPOSED adaptation for the Air Force points-- this is besed off of Beowolf's system, put in more defined characteristics:



Fighter Flights: Cost per flight of 4 planes
Air Superiority Fighters: dogfight to dominate the skies; clear a path for your bombers; intercept enemy bombers.
4 points = 5th Generation: F-22; F-35
2 points = 4th Generation: MiG-29/31; JAS 39; F-15 -16 -18; etc.
1 point = 3rd Generation: MiG-23 -25; etc.
.5 point = 2nd Generation: Mig-21, F-86 Sabre
.25 point= 1st Generation: P-80 Shooting Star



Tactical Bomber: Cost per flight of 4 planes
Medium-Range, fast-strike bombers of 45,000 lbs. payload or less. Good for clearing enemy formations, forts, or SAM sites.
4 points = 5th Generation: F-117; Su-25
2 points = 4th Generation: MiG-27, Su-27; A-10 Thunderbolt; Panavia Tornado; Su-24; F-111
1 point = 3rd Generation: F-4 Phantom; F-105 Thunderchief; A-6 Intruder; Su-17
.5 point = 2nd Generation: Mig-17; Mystere-IV; Hawker Hunter
.25 point= 1st Generation: A-1 Skyraider



Strategic Bomber: Cost per plane.
Long-range, high-altitude, massive-payload deliverers of pain.
4 points = 5th Generation: B-2 Spirit
2 points = 4th Generation: B-1 Lancer; Tu-144; Tu-160
1 point = 3rd Generation: B-58; B-52; Tu-22
.5 point = 2nd Generation: B-47; Avro Vulcan
.25 point= 1st Generation: B-36; Tu-16



TRAINING MODIFIERS:
Disorganized Barnstormers: 0 points.
Conscript Training (basic fly out/fly back; dodge & evade; let missiles do the work): +1 to cost per Brigade.
Professional Service (Very good evasion, dogfighting initiative): +2 to cost per Brigade
Legacy Squadron (exceptionally high standards, history to live up to): +3 to cost per Brigade

Elite/Top Guns: +5 to cost of Squadron; limited to 2 such Squadrons per country level.

Red Squadron OPFOR (Aggressor Training Squadron): +10 to cost of Squadron; limit 2 such Squadrons per country level.
LIMITATION: This training package has limitatations: Squadron does not deploy to combat. Cannot be applied to Bomber forces. Squadron flies Foreign Made aircraft for realistic training.

I've gone ahead and used Coyote's system for my army, but the rest of my forces is laid out as per Beowulf's original system. (Nothing wrong with mix and match, so long as the systems are compatible, I say )

Here is the new OOB posted for everyone's convenience

Army Order of Battle

Note: “Regiments” are equal to a brigade

1st Division
-1st Armored Regiment (Heavy, Guards training, Professional kit) 12pts.
-22nd Infantry Regiment (Mechanized, Guards training, Professional kit) 11pts.
-1st Infantry Regiment (Mechanized, Guards training, Professional kit) 11pts.

2nd Division
-5th Armored Regiment (Heavy, Professional Training, Professional kit) 11pts.
-31st Infantry Regiment (Mechanized, Professional Training, Professional kit) 10pts.
-9th Infantry Regiment (Mechanized, Professional Training, Professional kit) 10pts.

3rd Division
-4th Armored Regiment (Heavy, Professional Training, Professional kit) 11pts.
-3rd Infantry Regiment (Mechanized, Professional Training, Professional kit) 10pts.
-16th Infantry Regiment (Mechanized, Professional Training, Professional kit) 10pts.

Special Warfare Command
-2nd Airborne Regiment (Airborne, Ranger Training, Elite kit.) 12pts.
-7th Royal Marine Regiment (Light Infantry, Ranger Training, Professional kit) 10pts.
-Special Reconnaissance Group (Motorized, Special Forces Training, Elite kit.) 18pts.

Air Defense Units
-48 Heavy, 72 Medium and 48 Light SAM units.

Air Force Order of Battle

-4 5th gen. Fighters (F-22 Raptor)
-212 4th gen. Fighters (Saab Gripen)
-22 4th gen. Ground Attack
-64 3rd gen. Fighters (Mirage F1)
-10 tankers
-2 Heavy EWACS
-6 Light EWACS
-64 Trainers
-12 Strategic Lift Aircraft
-36 Tactical Lift Aircraft
-12 Light Maritime Patrol
-150 Utility Helicopters (Blackhawks and variants)
-60 Heavy Lift Helicopters (Chinook)
-36 Light Attack Helicopters (Gazelle)
-60 Attack Helicopters

Naval Order or Battle
-4 Attack Subs (Type 212 U-boat)
-6 Frigates (2 Sachsen class, 4 Halifax class)
-3 Destroyers (Arleigh Burke class)
-1 Small LHA
-2 LST’s
-4 Corvettes (Niels Juel type)
-1 AO
-1 AKE

The previous OOB posted for Wilkonia (see here) comes out to the following based on the points system:

Ground Combat Element:
45,000 combatant personnel (12000 reserve), 240 M1A1, 290 AAV-7A1, 290 M777, 50pts for personnel, 16pts for armor, 2.5pts for IFV, 8pts for artillery, 76.5pts total

Aviation Combat Element:
272 Gen IV Heavy, 272 Gen IV Light, 176 Light Attack Helicopter, 128 Attack Helicopter, 64 Medium Air Defense, 136pts Gen IV Heavy, 68pts Gen IV light, 7pts HLA, 11pts HA, 8 pts Air Defense, 230 pts total

306.5 pts for total WIMC.


* small notes, for sake of simplicity I counted HQ units as combatant (Regimental and Divisional HQ Companies/Battaltions are not counted as such) also I counted the same number of personnel within Tank and Arty BNs as you would find in a short BN (that is 3 companies instead of 4)

* Also note that I have not counted any personnel from the supporting MLG establishment. While I will be providing numbers and unit breakdowns of them the point system really only relates to combatant units. The only items that will add to my point total are the Combat Engineers attached to the MLGs.

* For points I've rounded to the nearest .5 in each sub-category thus the reason for the final total being 306.5 instead of a whole number.

*Last note for simplicity sake I did not break the combat engineers out from the combatant Marines when calculating personnel for the cost mostly because the decimal places would have hurt my head. My standard BN is roughly 700 combatant soldiers so it doesn't work out with 900 and 800 as the benchmarks until I get into the larger totals and can break it back down. In turn, however, reservists were counted fully with active duty mostly because all of my reservists are former active duty so the training and initial supporting establishment justify the larger point expenditure.


* Total aside, and note really related to the points count, the WIMC is volunteer force serving contract lengths of 6 years either as 2 active 4 active reserve or 4 active and 2 active reserve. All personnel are subject to recall from inactive duty for a further 2 years from end of contract but only after Parliament has declared war or a state of national emergency.

Wait a sec...

Itler is of Shadow extraction.

If we put the Sh(adow) in Itler, we get...

SHITLER!!!

(I just got back from hostipal duty, it's an 11pm-7am shift!)

Well, Coyote, you've got F-4s with two wildly different costs, and there's little point in actually having tactical bombers in that system. The tactical bombers cost as much as strategic bombers.

Although strictly speaking a F-4 may be a tactical bomber, the intent of the term was more to class aircraft such as F-111 and Tu-22M separately from bombers like a B-1 or Tu-95. Attack aircraft, like A-6, Su-25, etc should be in a separate class.

Shroom Man, I just thought of a better reason than I had previously to have Indhopal break from Shroomania's Commonwealth. Basically Indhopal would fight hard for Shroomania during the war, but after it was over, the government and people of Indhopal would stand for nothing less than independence after all their sacrifices.

*sighs*

And you guys basically said that I was an idiot for calling for less rules, more get-out-there-and-have-fun-before-the-cows-go-home.

*waits for another 4000 posts to pass and 3 more redux's...*

*sighs and longs for the good old days of ASVS*

I think there is so much talk over the points and such simplely because while everyone is waiting for the game to start, there just isn't too much else to talk about for the game; besides the histories that are basically a game unto themselves that is.

Beowulf wrote:Well, Coyote, you've got F-4s with two wildly different costs, and there's little point in actually having tactical bombers in that system. The tactical bombers cost as much as strategic bombers.

Whups, changed it.

Although strictly speaking a F-4 may be a tactical bomber, the intent of the term was more to class aircraft such as F-111 and Tu-22M separately from bombers like a B-1 or Tu-95. Attack aircraft, like A-6, Su-25, etc should be in a separate class.

I was originally going to subdivide it further into air superiority, high-altitude interception, and close air support. But before I got into that level of detail, I wanted to see if there was any interest first. For the most part, I think folks have already figured out their air forces, so I'm probably behind the curve with this.

It's also not as instinctive for me to do the Air Force version of this. The Army stuff I know how to set up, but I have to go back and forth in Wiki to look at roles, eras, uses, perceived needs, etc.

Crayz9000 wrote:*sighs*

And you guys basically said that I was an idiot for calling for less rules, more get-out-there-and-have-fun-before-the-cows-go-home.

*waits for another 4000 posts to pass and 3 more redux's...*

*sighs and longs for the good old days of ASVS*

Also, to be honest, we were waiting for our Map-Master, Stas, to come back from his humpymoon... er, I mean, honeymoon with Anna...

Ok I seem to have been forgotten. I'd like to be on the new world, but not facing the main ocean (so I can drop out if I need to), but I have large strategic material deposits (Oil, Natural Gas, several rare metals ect.) Oh and I have a semi-secret military project disguised as a civilian transport program, and a group gearing up for the arrival of the first group of Hustlers.

I'll be bordering Shepistan, with overland access through the mountain pass.

Former Shroomanian colony, aye?

This could pose for some interesting stuff, from WW2 onwards.

You could be the place where we conduct our Uranium-for-Food program!

Lonestar-- if you're New Continenet, and Canissia will be Old Continent, how would you be with making Old Dominion a long-ago colony of Canissia?

Figolfin, dude - PeZookia is very Slavic