StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Why do you keep mentioning Norton? Nobody has mentioned it but you.

Darth Nostril wrote:The built in windows firewall is shit, you are talking out of your hymen, it doesn't block outgoing crap, which is why I install Zone Alarm.

Vista's firewall blocks outbound connections and can also do so on a per-process level, which is better than any third-party firewall can do. Furthermore, Zone Alarm is not particularly well-written and hooks into the system's networking stack poorly, possibly causing more problems than it actually defend against.

You're actually bundling software that by your own admission is not good? Have you never considered the cure might be worse than the disease?

It may not be the best firewall but it beats the native windows version hands down.

Outbound blocking at the desktop level is not particularly relevant. The only real reason to do so is to block malicious software from communicating ... except said malicious software is generally installed with administrator privileges and can override any firewall at that point.

The best pay for AV is Kaspersky, but thats a little too pricey for most people.

Structured testing (most notably the Virus Bulletin and AV Comparatives groups) put Avira Premium and NOD32 on the top of the heap when it comes to for-pay antivirus software.

I'll give it this, it's not the usual, opinion-tested, focus-grouped drivel you normally expect to see out of Microsoft. But it comes off as reactionary and whiny. The opening line is a PC complaining about how unfairly a competitor portrays it ... while mirroring the competitor's portrayal of itself in appearance. Then the ad talks about PC users, which just misses the point entirely. John Hodgman and Justin Long aren't PC and Mac users. They are personified computers. They call each other "PC" and "Mac".

I just showed the Microsoft ad to my girlfriend, who'd never seen either of the ads. She didn't get it. Then I showed her some of the Apple ads and said, "This is what those are in response to." She chuckled at them and said, "Those make sense. Those two guys are computers." She can relate to it.

There's a huge difference between saying something about the PC itself and saying something about its users. The Apple ads aren't saying there are no PC users who blog for Obama or have beards. They're saying that interacting with a PC is like talking to a lawyer, whereas interacting with a Mac is far more casual and relaxed. So yeah, you can do plenty of stuff on Windows. But those ads don't give the impression that doing those things is easy or even enjoyable, just possible.

It's another manifestation of what I've come to call "Bullet Point Syndrome" -- the idea that it doesn't matter how well you do something as long as you can do it allowing the marketing department to put it in a bullet-pointed list of features. It's the type of attitude that separates design from function instead of marrying them. And for regular people, it generates products that are frustrating and unintuitive.

The other thing about Microsoft's ads is that they're focusing solely on their image problems. Between this and Microsoft's Mojave Experiment, it's clear that the company's attitude is, "Hey, Vista is awesome, and if you're having problems with it, it's because you don't get how awesome it is." It's like they're saying that their only problems are with image and brand perception, and not say, design or user experience.

As an aside, here's an interesting take on the "Get a Mac" ads.

The other thing about Microsoft's ads is that they're focusing solely on their image problems. Between this and Microsoft's Mojave Experiment, it's clear that the company's attitude is, "Hey, Vista is awesome, and if you're having problems with it, it's because you don't get how awesome it is." It's like they're saying that their only problems are with image and brand perception, and not say, design or user experience.

I don't care for the "I'm a PC" ads on account of finding them terribly boring. That said, given the task of crafting an advertisement for Windows, how would you approach it?

Uraniun235 wrote:

The other thing about Microsoft's ads is that they're focusing solely on their image problems. Between this and Microsoft's Mojave Experiment, it's clear that the company's attitude is, "Hey, Vista is awesome, and if you're having problems with it, it's because you don't get how awesome it is." It's like they're saying that their only problems are with image and brand perception, and not say, design or user experience.

I don't care for the "I'm a PC" ads on account of finding them terribly boring. That said, given the task of crafting an advertisement for Windows, how would you approach it?

I'm a mac

And I'm a PC

Hey there PC, what are you up to?

Oh, playing a game

Really? Which game?

*voice darkens* All of them

Fin

"I'm a PC, I work and am cheaper than a Mac"

defanatic wrote:I'm a mac

And I'm a PC

Hey there PC, what are you up to?

Oh, playing a game

Really? Which game?

*voice darkens* All of them

Fin

1) PC gaming isn't that huge a market. I'll grant that I think such a commercial could potentially be played very hilariously, but in the end it's just not a wide enough appeal.

2) I doubt that Microsoft wants to really emphasize PC gaming when they're still trying to push the Xbox360.

Kitsune wrote:"I'm a PC, I work and am cheaper than a Mac"

It's a simple enough sentiment, but the trick is that you want people to feel good about buying your product, and saying "hey we're the affordable choice" kind of implies "too bad you can't afford to splurge for the really nice choice, huh?".



If I had to take a crack at it, I'd probably push something along the lines of "choice is wonderful" and how there's a huge number of PC OEMs out there with features to cater to nearly any preference. (Maybe the commercial could be two car dealerships, across the street...?)

It's not a great commercial idea, but then I have to admit that if someone asks me "hey what's a good brand of computer to buy?" I'll generally first say "have you considered a Mac?" I don't personally prefer them but I recognize that Apple makes very good products.

Uraniun235 wrote:I don't care for the "I'm a PC" ads on account of finding them terribly boring. That said, given the task of crafting an advertisement for Windows, how would you approach it?

It's tough because people buy computers that happen to have Windows on them; they don't really buy Windows.

defanatic wrote:I'm a mac

And I'm a PC

Hey there PC, what are you up to?

Oh, playing a game

Really? Which game?

*voice darkens* All of them

Fin

The hardcore, build-your-own PC crowd might fap themselves over that, but they're also the ones most likely to pirate Windows anyway. Don't kid yourself. Microsoft could easily live without them, and it may even prefer to in the end, considering that it's invested quite a bit in the Xbox 360.

Kitsune wrote:"I'm a PC, I work and am cheaper than a Mac"

Nothing says "Buy me!" like saying "Hey! I'm adequate and don't strive to be anything more than that!" This is why nerds aren't very good advertisers. They only know how to speak to their own.

The problem with advertising Windows is that you're not really convincing anyone to buy it. People buy computers, not operating systems. They just happen to buy a lot of cheap computers that come with Windows. These ads aren't on the air because people aren't buying Windows; they're on the air because people are dissatisfied with Windows. Microsoft needs damage control, and you don't get that with an advertising campaign.

I like what they have now, it humanizes the idea that "Hey, a PC won't make me a loser dweeb" and fights back at the branding style the Macs have pushed. But the thing is, it's really not a hardware commercial, it's a software one and one about the whole 'apple experience' thing. It's much harder to defend Windows than it is to show all the reasons you'd want to use a computer that's not an apple product, so really, you need to ask if you want to make a Microsoft commercial or a Non-Mac Computer commerical. Durandal is totally right of course--the real way to get people excited about Windows is to make it more than simply the thing that comes on any computer you buy. It should actually be good, or there should be another choice... besides Linux. Windows should really go for an idiot-proof approach. Make a very basic, simple, no-frills non-technical version of windows that is cheap and bug free and does very little. Then allow a serious user to pay like 50 bucks for his upgrade to Windows Advanced, which unlocks all the bells and whistles and makes it the complicated mess that power users want but everyone else wishes would go away.

Apple is selling their thing as an entire experience though, so if you really wanted to make a good PC v Mac counterpoint ad you'd want to do it not as a Microsoft ad, but as an actual PC ad. Show an Alienware box running all of the best games (and contrary to what's said, PC gaming is still a huge market--look no further than WoW) using all their stuff, looking all slick, and show how you can buy that all as a package. Have a different one show the user-friendly little Gateways or Dells and stuff, where you buy your stuff and it comes all installed right out of the box, showing that there's nice little simple PC's for the average grandma too. Show a Linux box running technical stuff, or a server running something, or a Pixar animator working on a film and having Mr. Incredible say he's a PC, and so forth.

The real reason the apple things sell well is because you get a bunch of stuff that all looks like it's meant to work together, and it actually is. It's appealing, and simple. A lot of the claims may not be true, but the apple experience is. People like it when their computer is no more complicated than a toaster, phone, or car. They like it all to come in one box. If I was making Apple commericals, you could have a commercial like that--the PC guy gets, like, a steering wheel. The Mac guy has a car, and asks where the PC guy's other stuff is, and he tells him those are just peripherals--all he really needs is the steering wheel. "What about driving though? Don't you need a car for that?" "Ah," the PC would say, "Don't worry--I used my left turn signal here to download a workaround guide for that." Apple--get the whole car in one box.

See, it's easier to write for apples, because they turn a computer into an appliance or a tool rather than a goddamn lifestyle choice. I love PCs and do not love Macs, but I know the things that terrify the average user are the things apples generally let people avoid. There's big money to be made in selling people Windows, Happy Edition. Where all the icons are a big bigger, a happier looking, and all the scary error boxes just print out to an easy-to-read Computer Fixer's File instead of making moms and grandmas cry.

Covenant wrote:Show a Linux box running technical stuff, or a server running something, or a Pixar animator working on a film and having Mr. Incredible say he's a PC, and so forth.

This is only a minor nitpick, but you are aware of who Pixar's CEO was until Disney purchased the company?

phongn wrote:

Covenant wrote:Show a Linux box running technical stuff, or a server running something, or a Pixar animator working on a film and having Mr. Incredible say he's a PC, and so forth.

This is only a minor nitpick, but you are aware of who Pixar's CEO was until Disney purchased the company?

And you are aware of who Disney's chairman is, right?

Durandal wrote:

phongn wrote:

Covenant wrote:Show a Linux box running technical stuff, or a server running something, or a Pixar animator working on a film and having Mr. Incredible say he's a PC, and so forth.

This is only a minor nitpick, but you are aware of who Pixar's CEO was until Disney purchased the company?

And you are aware of who Disney's chairman is, right?

Andy Bird? I don't get it.

Besides, Steve Jobs isn't a tainted well. I'm not a big fan of the products, but the business model is fantastic, and it's really a user positive experience to buy into apple products. Regardless of Steve's ownership though, Animation's not done on a Mac, so my example stll stands. It's too bad he didn't become Chairman of Disney though, it would have been more memorable than Andy Bird.

Admiral Valdemar wrote: Apple? Pretentious? WHY WASN'T I TOLD?!

lmao.

phongn wrote: The built-in Windows firewall (XP SP2+ or Vista) is fine.

The built in Windows firewall doesn't protect you from Microsoft though.

As for AV software, I prefer Avira for free scanning, but it is nagware. NOD32 is probably the best of the for-pay scanners, and it's hardly expensive for an OEM to order and bundle.

That's what I use as well. I can't even count how many times that annoying pop up window crashed a session of Dawn of War for me.

Durandal wrote:There's a huge difference between saying something about the PC itself and saying something about its users. The Apple ads aren't saying there are no PC users who blog for Obama or have beards. They're saying that interacting with a PC is like talking to a lawyer, whereas interacting with a Mac is far more casual and relaxed. So yeah, you can do plenty of stuff on Windows. But those ads don't give the impression that doing those things is easy or even enjoyable, just possible.

I remember when a very much anti-Mac friend showed me the 'I'm a Mac, I'm a PC' ads, in an attempt to demonstrate how generally pretentious they were. He failed miserably: I didn't think the ads were particularly pretentious. On more than a few occasions, Mac outright states that PC just does some things better than he does, but conversely, he also does some things better than PC does. The depiction of PC as being fairly anal about the whole thing struck me as being perfectly accurate, simply because of personal experience with aforementioned anti-Mac friends. Naturally, I don't think this applies to everyone.

Bounty wrote:

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I suppose one advantage of Linux is no annoying ads.

Only because we can't get streaming video to work reliably.

Actually, the moonlight plugin (compiled from source), actually seems to play the video somewhat decently (stutters due to massive CPU usage, but at least it's stable unlike Flash).

(Yes, I had to go through the hoops compiling it since my uncle visits a site that uses Silverlight D: ). It's not really that bad, but the fact that Microsoft could yank support claiming lack of market share isn't comforting. Plus Mono has performance issues Flash doesn't have.

Stargate Nerd wrote:The built in Windows firewall doesn't protect you from Microsoft though.

I realize this is an inane, glib comment, but why would a third-party firewall "protect you from Microsoft?"

That's what I use as well. I can't even count how many times that annoying pop up window crashed a session of Dawn of War for me.

If you Google around, you'll find ways to blocking the nagware.

phongn wrote:

Stargate Nerd wrote:The built in Windows firewall doesn't protect you from Microsoft though.

I realize this is an inane, glib comment, but why would a third-party firewall "protect you from Microsoft?" .

Afaik Zone Alarm can restrict Microsoft's applications like Windows Media Player from accessing the internet. I don't like ET calling home to report on my habits.

Thanks for the tip, I will look into it.

Stargate Nerd wrote:Afaik Zone Alarm can restrict Microsoft's applications like Windows Media Player from accessing the internet. I don't like ET calling home to report on my habits.

Then tell WMP not to access the internet instead of blocking it with a firewall (and the built-in Windows Firewall can do that anyways)

The Seinfeld ads are just nonsensical. The new I'm A PC ads are a lot better, but...I dunno. The "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" ads at least poke some fun at the actual products in a manner that can be viewed as humorous or pretentious depending on your viewpoint. The "I'm a PC" ads are pretty much saying, "Hey, I'm more popular!" without saying anything about the actual product.

This webcomic was amusing as well, but I'll save the formatting of the site.
http://www.joyoftech.com/joyoftech/joyimages/1153.gif

If anyone's been watching TV lately, Microsoft has a few new ones out. One of them in particular had me just about rolling with laughter, when they showed this one guy, saying...

"... and I'm stuck in the '80s."

I wonder how the marketing department let that one slip past.

Crayz9000 wrote:If anyone's been watching TV lately, Microsoft has a few new ones out. One of them in particular had me just about rolling with laughter, when they showed this one guy, saying...

"... and I'm stuck in the '80s."

I wonder how the marketing department let that one slip past.

It's supposed to be candid, so I bet it was let through intentionally.