Another question I came up with from RoTJ - Only 2 Siths?

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm not at all assuming the Sith are against immortality with the Rule of Two. I'm merely saying that the Rule of Two was not put in place when the Lord of the Sith was capable of achieving physical immortality and was emperor of the galaxy. The purpose of the Rule of Two to minimalize factionalism is undeniable, but the only reason for Vader or Palpatine to follow it is if they believe it is in their own best interests. If they believe some other course of action was in their interest why wouldn't they act on those alternatives. Whatever version of the Rule of Two they were following, if any, allowed them to employ a host of dark side users including the some skilled and powerful individuals.

[Lord Pounder]

Apparently you missed quite a lot of lore. Try reading the Darth Bane books. Even Sith have rules, one of them is One Master One Apprentice. One embody power, the other to crave it. Before Bane's time there was an Army of Sith. What did they do? The weak banded together and killed the strong, diluting the strength of the Sith, techniques and abilities where lost untill Bane put them out of their misery. Palpatine broke the rule and look where it got him.

I admit, I've only seen the movies, played the Dark Forces series, read a couple of stat books about space ships, and a couple of pages of a very thick book involving Han and Luke arguing about weather the Emperor had a non-human admiral. Yeah, I'm very ignorant about alot of things. But if it's about a fanfic about the Sith screwing themselves over, then along came a spider-Sith that screws them permanently, then I can accept that. The so called Rule of Two is a dead end idea. It's a disaster waiting to happen, and accepting it is accepting the end of the Sith at the hands of freak accidents or a run of bad luck.

Although the previous poster made a point for the argument that that's exactly what the movies (and sequel books) are about.

The Darth Bane books are not fan fiction and have a place in canon, if you're gonna post on here you really should learn a bit about the subject you are posting on, ignorance is no excuse. The rule of two is hardly a dead end idea. It worked for a time spanning over 1000 years which saw the Sith change from a failed Brotherhood of Darkness to the point where a Sith became ruler of the Galaxy under the Jedi Councils nose. It only went wrong when Palpatine tried to have his cake and eat it. He broke the code and died not long after.

Other here have claimed that Sith broke this Rule of Two, would they mind citing examples of Sith Lords taking on more than 1 apprentice since Bane invoked the Rule of Two?

[Darth Hoth]

The Darth Bane books are not fan fiction and have a place in canon, if you're gonna post on here you really should learn a bit about the subject you are posting on, ignorance is no excuse. The rule of two is hardly a dead end idea. It worked for a time spanning over 1000 years which saw the Sith change from a failed Brotherhood of Darkness to the point where a Sith became ruler of the Galaxy under the Jedi Councils nose. It only went wrong when Palpatine tried to have his cake and eat it. He broke the code and died not long after.

It was still a rule that would make the Sith lineage very vulnerable, if the sum of its knowledge was held by one individual (the Master) and his apprentice more or less took for granted that he should kill him at the soonest opportunity

Other here have claimed that Sith broke this Rule of Two, would they mind citing examples of Sith Lords taking on more than 1 apprentice since Bane invoked the Rule of Two?

The only one I can think of right away would be Darth Millennial, but he was really a schismatic who left the Banite Sith. Unless one means to count the various lesser acolytes as true Sith apprentices?

[Illuminatus Primus]

It was still a rule that would make the Sith lineage very vulnerable, if the sum of its knowledge was held by one individual (the Master) and his apprentice more or less took for granted that he should kill him at the soonest opportunity

The Banite Sith's gnosticism probably figures into that. The monopoly on knowledge (power) would make the Apprentice feel beholden to, dependent on, and afraid of the Master. Notice that Palpatine emphasizes that Plagueis was murdered only after he taught his Apprentice all he knew. Notice that Vader fantasizes about killing Palpatine but not until he has learned more of Palpatine's secrets.

The only one I can think of right away would be Darth Millennial, but he was really a schismatic who left the Banite Sith. Unless one means to count the various lesser acolytes as true Sith apprentices?

Millennial was a schismatic who abandoned the Order - apparently with incomplete training, in favor of heretical and reactionary knowledge and practices. I don't think he counts.

[Imperial Overlord]

Other here have claimed that Sith broke this Rule of Two, would they mind citing examples of Sith Lords taking on more than 1 apprentice since Bane invoked the Rule of Two?

It's stated in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, although no specific examples are named. The Rule of Two is clearly a precarious existence. The more the apprentice knows the greater use and danger he is to his master but if the master stops teaching him, then the apprentice no longer has a reason not to turn on his master at his earliest opportunity. And if the master should get hit crossing the street or whatever before training the current apprentice to a very high level of skill, the Sith Order is fucked. That huge failure point is glaringly obvious and is probably the source of a lot of discomfort that some SD.netters have with the Rule of Two. It's certainly one of the reasons I don't like it, but it was common practice among the Sith for a thousand years. There were, however, exceptions and circumstances did change. Sith believe in passion, not rules, after all.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think much of the Sith lore is actively codified, so that much of it can be accessed from holocrons and what have you. Further, it more the potential that the Master has more knowledge - therefore power - to offer that keeps the Apprentice in line.

[Darth Hoth]

The Banite Sith's gnosticism probably figures into that. The monopoly on knowledge (power) would make the Apprentice feel beholden to, dependent on, and afraid of the Master. Notice that Palpatine emphasizes that Plagueis was murdered only after he taught his Apprentice all he knew. Notice that Vader fantasizes about killing Palpatine but not until he has learned more of Palpatine's secrets.

Yet Palpatine never learned his "Midichlorian manipulation" ability. So there was at least one skill lost as a Master was murdered in that generation. Unless this has since been ret-conned?

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Banite Sith's gnosticism probably figures into that. The monopoly on knowledge (power) would make the Apprentice feel beholden to, dependent on, and afraid of the Master. Notice that Palpatine emphasizes that Plagueis was murdered only after he taught his Apprentice all he knew. Notice that Vader fantasizes about killing Palpatine but not until he has learned more of Palpatine's secrets.

Yet Palpatine never learned his "Midichlorian manipulation" ability. So there was at least one skill lost as a Master was murdered in that generation. Unless this has since been ret-conned?

As far as I am concerned, "midichlorian manipulation" is Wookiee fanon. We hear of it once, hearsay, for a conjob by Palpatine to Anakin Skywalker. Its hilarious that everything Saxton and the rationalists due is verboten, but a whole article is dedicated to conjecture like that.

[Darth Hoth]

As far as I am concerned, "midichlorian manipulation" is Wookiee fanon. We hear of it once, hearsay, for a conjob by Palpatine to Anakin Skywalker. Its hilarious that everything Saxton and the rationalists due is verboten, but a whole article is dedicated to conjecture like that.

Hey, I am not defending Wookiee here, I know full well that they have more than their fair share of retards. The site is useful for quick references on well-known topics or when you want a list of real sources to read up on something obscure, but little else (I came close to a stroke once when I read a featured article on some retarded Ewoks! TV cartoon ridiculosity. . . ).

Still, I was under the impression that the power was canon; did Lucas not include it in a manuscript draft that Palpatine's story was essentially true, it only being ommitted later on?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think if it was deliberately cut-out, that's worse for it than having just been speculation. Lucas took it out for a reason, and subtlety is hardly his strong point.

[Darth Hoth]

Truth. . .

[General Trelane (Retired)]

Overall, Vader never really displayed a lot of Sith characteristics. He's blunt, obvious, petulent, apparently not that much of a planner on a Sith-scale level of deviousness, and from all indications was never entirely trained by Sidious. It does beg the question, why fixate on Anakin if he's not going to be of any more use than a clever booby-trap (senator's office) combined with an automatic baby-killer? A few HK droids would have been just as effective at that, and it seems like most of the big Jedi died from standard troopers anyway, so Vader's big role in the grand scheme of things is... what? Does Sidious start looking for someone to replace him the moment he drags his boy wonder out of the lava? Did Obi-Wan fuck Vader up so bad that he basically had such a minimalistic use that the Emperor needed a retinue of Sorcerors, Emperor's Hands, and other assitants to cover for what would normally be his apprentice's job?

You're not considering one very important point: by turning Anakin to the Dark Side, he removes a potential asset to the Light Side. That Darth Vader was "blunt, obvious, petulent, apparently not that much of a planner on a Sith-scale level of deviousness, and from all indications was never entirely trained by Sidious" merely shows what Palpatine manipulated him to become. Considering how strong Anakin was in the Force, making him this way was likely Darth Sidious's way of minimizing the danger that his new apprentice would succeed in destroying him.

Not that it worked. . .

[Saxtonite]

Hmm...

Doesn't the "Rule of Two" only state that no two Sith LORDS would exist at one time? Curtis Saxton did mention that there could have been other Sith nuns, priests, acolytes, etc who did not become Sith Lords. I'm not sure where the "Only two fully initiated sith" comes from either.

[Lord Revan]

Hmm...

Doesn't the "Rule of Two" only state that no two Sith LORDS would exist at one time? Curtis Saxton did mention that there could have been other Sith nuns, priests, acolytes, etc who did not become Sith Lords. I'm not sure where the "Only two fully initiated sith" comes from either.

that's Revan's version, Bane's version (from the novel "Path of Destruction") forbids all "lesser" sith so that one doesn't drawn attention of the Jedi until the time is right.