Galactic Empire vs All the orks in the 40K galaxy

[Setzer]

Nonsense. They were able to build DS2 using the resources of a single company. Not to mention the world devastators and the Galaxy gun, the Eclipse SSDs, and a whole bunch of other fancy weapons.

[NecronLord]

Nonsense. They were able to build DS2 using the resources of a single company.

You know, I don't think it was actually said in Shadows of the Empire that XTS got exclusivity on the Death Star.

[NecronLord]

Which we've discussed before. Having actually read Xenology now, I'm even MORE convinced of how bizarre this is. Orks won't be harmed by anti-plant weapons yet weedkiller will? Other forms of weedkiller won't work but the specific kind mentioned would? Nevermind that the Tau, Necrons, or Eldar never seemed to bother figuring this out "hey, weedkiller will fuck em up, so why don't we try that?" The Necrons in particular are irksome, as I recall they were indicated in Xenology to have had a hand in all this to begin with.

Why the hell would necrons switch to using hollowpoints? A gauss flayer just flat out vapourises an ork in one shot. It's not going to spore after that. There's nothing saying the Eldar actually have trouble dealing with ork infestation - indeed, they have the technology to create a rather watered down genesis effect on planets. I doubt it's a problem for them. As for the Tau: whyever would they think of injecting their enemies with weedkiller from an alien world?

And now that I think aobut it, how sane was the AdMech guy actually making those notes and observations?

Not very. But he was still able to conduct a number of highly complex scientific experiments and dissections. More to the point, even he acknowledges that it's not a miracle cure (much sporing is done before you shoot them, for a start, and even then, it corrupts and mangles their spores, it doesn't completely stop them, and shooting them with such a bullet might screw them up in the long run, but they can still kill you before their sudden genetic abberation gets them), but a potentially useful tool.

there were other things that bugged me about Xenology (one reason I have a hard time considering whether to actually cover it or not) but the oddities about the "weedkiller" is a big one.

Eh. Orks are a gigantic joke. Them having a gigantic glass jaw that most of their enemies are too dumb to figure out is no more stupid than anything else about them. Just like the Imperium don't do the logical thing and start issuing noise amplifiers before any engagement with orks, because despite being well known that noisy weapons work best on them, it's not an officially acknowledged idea.

[Darth Raptor]

Didn't the cost of the joint losses of the Death Star 1 and Dark Trooper projects nearly bankrupt the Empire?

Gods, no. The DSII was built in secret, in situ and in a matter or months. Think about that. A fully-mobilized SWG (especially one ruled by the Empire) would be an utter nightmare. They don't operate at anywhere near full capacity because they've never had a reason to in their entire history. A serious existential threat like the 40k Milky Way would eventually see them take the kid gloves off, and God-Emperor help you when they do.

[Todeswind]

I found the misleading quote that caused this hiccup. It was about Palpatine refusing to fund the re-creation of the Dark Trooper project so soon after the loss of the Death Star. Still I would hardly call the Death Star projects anything less than monumental achievements. I'm somewhat skeptical about the ability of the empire to build a fleet of them else it seems completely retarded that Palpatine didn't just make five or more of the buggers all at once and blow the crap out of every planet that looked at him funny.

On a side note though could we please not bring the UBER omega super weapons into this discussion, Sun Crusher, Death-Star, GEoM, etc. That invariably leads to a dick measuring competition over Alpha level psychers vs. super lasers and the most patient fan wank shall prevail.

[Darth Hoth]

But for a second lets assume that the Empire stomps the hell out of the early Waarrggh party that enters Imperial space. There is no reason to assume that the Empire would have a clue that their defense fleets, which would no doubt respond to any incursion, could become carriers for spores. The majority of the IoM is ignorant of how orks breed outside of the military forced dedicated specifically to the task of combatting them. I would assume that it is Empire SOP to take prisoners, or at least some bodies, from any sort of hostile extragalactic invasion. Once the ork spores get in the oxygen recyclers then they are ticking time bombs. IOM ships that have been boarded by orks are supposed to (but rarely do) go through strict quarantine procedures to ensure that all spores are eliminated. As the Empire no doubt does not know this the specimins would be taken to a number of research labs. They would probably obey some sort of quarantie procedures but no system is perfect and after the immediate dangers of disease are proven to be false issues any survivors would be turned over for interrogation and any dead bodies would be dissected to learn what they could learn (true the two aren't mutually exclusive).

Star Wars ships and starports are irradiated to kill off harmful microorganisms as a matter of course. The Empire, facing off against completely unknown creatures with impossible physiologies, is likely to be very careful with them, at least initially (they have experiences with Death Seed, "Spore" diseases and all manners of weird microorganisms and biowarfare). Expect bodies to be tested and sampled for poisons or biological agents. And once the Orks are dissected, their metabolisms and workings in general, including procreation, will be covered.

It doesn't seem like a stretch to assume that the best equipped facilites for the sort of research would be on or within reach of major population centers. The undercity of Courscaunt would be a prime breeding ground for ork spores. Orks regularly infest hive worlds in this manner, some well menaing Lord will try to have Orks studied and interrogated and unitentionally infect their worlds.

The Empire tends to place its bioresearch facilities remotely because of the risk of contamination. Cases in point, sparsely-visited Falleen or the "Emperor's Plague" storehouse in YJK. Strange aliens, who might well have been determined to give off "spores" at preliminary autopsy, most assuredly will not be taken to the centre of galactic government in any case.

The Empire wouldn't automatically asume that the Orks are breeding in the sewers when raiding parties start, they'll assume that there are infiltrators who are heralding some invasion. Which may or may not be true if the orks in the now properly orks 40k universe hear that there is fighting to be had in the SW one.

One does not assume that a hostile sentinet is a fungus when you meet them, you reach for your blaster. When there are waves of them descending on your planets you start looking for thermal detenators long before you look for bio-weapons.

The Empire likes to quantify its opponents. Once they have dissected a few Orks, they will know, and plan accordingly.

[Stark]

I just noticed the OP gives the Orks the ability to open wormholes anywhere from various positions in the 40k galaxy. This is pretty hilarious stuff; the Orks will now pop up all over the show due to magic tech the Orks don't have, but the Empire can't do the same and have to fight numerous sources of comedy scifi guys! I like fairness, lol!

Still, given that it's Orks, tracking each incursion back to it's entry point and blockading or destroying it shouldn't be very hard (simple vector analysis, probe droids, etc), particularly at the start where the Orks don't even know where they're going/doing etc. Later, when the Orks send larger fleets through, it might be a push, but let's face it; even one Death Star is never more than six or seven hours from any of the mystery entry points, and the Orks can't lug around those blackstone things so they automatically lose. Once the Empire shakes off their OP-induced stupidity and works out the science behind the wormholes, they'll be even more quickly located and locked down.

Unless the scenario involves a coordinated push by millions of ships through several points at once, I don't see how this is at all interesting, and if it does it succeeds by simple surprise and isn't interesting EITHER. Discussions on how to kill individual Orks seems utterly irrelevant to the spacebound strategy which is central here. The whole 'sector level threat in three days' thing is just admitting they've got no chance except their loltastic comedy spores. The idea the Empire would just truck supermegaplot spores INTO CORUSCANT is pretty funny since they have doorframes that can detect shapeshifters. The Orks seem unlikely to even locate any useful targets, given their total ignorance and the likely speed of response.

[Ford Prefect]

STRAK, it is specified that there are roughly 100 wormholes, all of which are opened in Hutt space.

[Stark]

STRAK, it is specified that there are roughly 100 wormholes, all of which are opened in Hutt space.

Yeah my mind might have exploded after the 'Orks invent totally new technology and make massively advantagous wormholes' thing. This just makes it even easier to find and lock down the wormholes, and once the Empire is prepared I'm not sure how the 40k guys will break through, particularly not if the Empire uses it's industrial advantage or superscience to fuck them up. Without navigation, it seems the Orks are unlikely to be able to strike any worthwhile targets if they start in Hutt space (and ultimately the Empire may simply use it as a reason to annex and obliterate the Hutts entirely).

[Zablorg]

I think while the orks would be a persistant neiusance, the fact that they look for fights and not Empire crippling campaigns means that it should be fairly well contained in Hutt space. The Hutt space itself would probably be screwed over pretty quickly, but as it has been stated once the Empire gets a good idea about what they're up against ti wouldn't take that much of their resources to cut them off from the rest of the galaxy, unless they gain momentum as a huge Waaagh or something. If the Empire really wanted, they could probably slowly wipe it out a planet at a time (burning the whole thing as they go of course), and push the Orks back into 40k.

And that's when they discover...

FOOLS! IT WAS THE WARP ALL ALONG!

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah my mind might have exploded after the 'Orks invent totally new technology and make massively advantagous wormholes' thing.

Hey, it's in-character.

I wanted to punctuate that with the laughing smiley, but it looks like ass.

This just makes it even easier to find and lock down the wormholes, and once the Empire is prepared I'm not sure how the 40k guys will break through, particularly not if the Empire uses it's industrial advantage or superscience to fuck them up. Without navigation, it seems the Orks are unlikely to be able to strike any worthwhile targets if they start in Hutt space (and ultimately the Empire may simply use it as a reason to annex and obliterate the Hutts entirely).

Strictly speaking, I don't really expect the Orks to be looking for worthwhile targets. Statistically speaking, the number of directed invasions the Orks perform is much, much smaller compared to them just randomly flying around, occasionally smashing shit up. There is, by act of OP, some sort of concerted push to actually go through the the wormholes, which is a pretty ludicrous number of ships, but all this means is that the probability of running into a Ork is higher.

[Stark]

The OP mentions smaller scouting fleets, which are going to almost immediately alert the Empire to the threat and get utterly destroyed, tracked to the source and blockaded. The number of holes is the only way they could get a large fleet through, and their comedy strategy planning means they're unlikely to be cagey about it. I'm not convinced they could even overrun Hutt space before the Empire blows the complete shit out of them - almost the only way I see this vs being intersting is if we handwave away the SW setting and say the Hutts try to hush it up and allow the Orks to create a singificant bridgehead before the Empire reacts, in which case given the numbers involved the Empire could be in serious shit until they can ramp up military production.

Hey, it's in-character.

Yeah, much of my scorn for this vs is the hilarious comedy almost no-limits Orkiness. Yes, it's funny, yes it's a larf, but it's really stupid in a vs. I also will not use the laffing smiley, lol.

OTOH, I thought that Waaaghs were smarter overall than individual Orks, that they got some kind of higher-level direction out of it? Or was that just Thraka? If the Waaagh is as dumb as Orks (ps, football hooligan = dumb) they're totally fucked.

[Oskuro]

STRAK, it is specified that there are roughly 100 wormholes, all of which are opened in Hutt space.

Yeah my mind might have exploded after the 'Orks invent totally new technology and make massively advantagous wormholes' thing. This just makes it even easier to find and lock down the wormholes, and once the Empire is prepared I'm not sure how the 40k guys will break through, particularly not if the Empire uses it's industrial advantage or superscience to fuck them up. Without navigation, it seems the Orks are unlikely to be able to strike any worthwhile targets if they start in Hutt space (and ultimately the Empire may simply use it as a reason to annex and obliterate the Hutts entirely).

Precisely my point about the OP situation being a bottleneck for the Orks. If the wormholes where to be randomly distributed throughout the SW galaxy, it would be a different matter, but as few as 100 wormholes, all located in the outer rim, it won't be too hard for the Empire to notice outer rim settlements being overrun in the same general area, and given the speed of Hyperdrive, they'll be more than capable of striking at them, and I wasn't counting with the possibility of the Death Star being operational, because, in that case, no matter how tough Orky ships can be, there's no way they can take on firepower of that magnitude.

As for the Orks having this wondertech, to be honest, one of the things I like about Orky tech is how the fluff often gives them some pretty nifty and advanced stuff (even if crude in its presentation and use) due to their genetically induced Mad Science(tm) abilities, and the fact that they don't have problems using unstable technology, to the point that part of their tech is described as working because of their hardiness, as it would kill lesser beings. But, that's part of the appeal of Orks, that they are meant to be comical and somewhat nonsensical, of course that's not an alien concept for Star Wars either (Gungans, Ewoks, C3PO & R2D2)

[Stark]

I swear people mention their plot-driven stupid crap just to give me a fucking twitch. Yes, the Orks are pretty much a no-numbers sorta thing. Yes their tech works because football hooligans are funny. Thank you. :'( If the OP mentioned squig cannons we could at least imagine snotlings blowing up the Death Star.

Since this is pre-ANH, it may be in the period of search for the rebellion, in which case the Orks may well be picked up almost straight away.

[Ford Prefect]

I'm not convinced they could even overrun Hutt space before the Empire blows the complete shit out of them - almost the only way I see this vs being intersting is if we handwave away the SW setting and say the Hutts try to hush it up and allow the Orks to create a singificant bridgehead before the Empire reacts, in which case given the numbers involved the Empire could be in serious shit until they can ramp up military production.

This would probably make it more of a conflict, but it still just boils down to 'Empire starts cranking out more drydocks'.

OTOH, I thought that Waaaghs were smarter overall than individual Orks, that they got some kind of higher-level direction out of it? Or was that just Thraka? If the Waaagh is as dumb as Orks (ps, football hooligan = dumb) they're totally fucked.

That depends on who is in charge. Some Orks are actually pretty cunning, in a fairly blunt sort of way, and if they're cunning enough they can exploit the idiotic boyz or counter their opponents. For example, Orkimedes countered the tactical and strategic flexibility of the Imperium by dropping big rocks on them from space, but he also built tellyportas which were used to conduct lightning raids from across a solar system. Thraka is a particularly mighty example of a Warboss, but he is an example of sheer 'personality' managing to get boyz to do stuff like ambushes. They're still not great or anything, but in a big enough boss can use a Waaagh! (which just sort of happen).

If the OP mentioned squig cannons we could at least imagine snotlings blowing up the Death Star.

'Captain, the tributary tunnels are filled with little green aliens and we're worried what mi-'
'Commence primary ignition!'

[The Dark]

I'm not fully versed in 40K but I think the question has to be raised and considered now, since it's going to come up eventually - what exactly does it take to remove an Ork infestation from a planet?

Weedkiller.

Seriously.

Xenology has a commonly available modern-real-life weedkiller (I can look up which one if you like), if used in modified hollowpoint rounds, course through their bodies like a very fast acting poison, and as well as killing them stone dead, it corrupts the cell nuclei of their spores so they don't drop fertile spores when they die.

It's listed in Xenology as Dicholorophenoxy acetic acid, which is probably intended to be 2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid which...um...only kills dicots, not monocots or fungoids. It's also unclear how effective it would actually be (it prevented the spores from growing properly, but it's unclear whether the Ork could heal from the wound [since it was dead], and the author is insane, so his state of mind is not conducive to taking him at face value). It's also somewhat toxic to humans, with an LD50 of 639mg/kg, and is banned by Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Kuwait, and the province of Quebec due to its toxicity.

[NecronLord]

It's listed in Xenology as Dicholorophenoxy acetic acid, which is probably intended to be 2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid which...um...only kills dicots, not monocots or fungoids.

And magical alien soccer hooligans, it seems. They are more effectively killed by loud noises and bright flashes; I hardly think it's that mad for them to be vulnerable to some odd chemicals.

It's also unclear how effective it would actually be (it prevented the spores from growing properly, but it's unclear whether the Ork could heal from the wound [since it was dead],

The idea that they could heal from it is postulating an ability they've never shown in any way shape or form.

and the author is insane, so his state of mind is not conducive to taking him at face value).

He is also sane enough to still be of some value to a necron. A member of a race 'devoted to cold science' with a history of 540 million years as a technological species. Becoming 'insane' in that he likes his alien pets and is really cut up by cutting them up, does not mean he's suffering hallucinations or otherwise unreliable. Indeed, his mental distress is very much engineered by an Elder Race to make him a more useful scientist. To quote 'this brilliant, broken mind' - he's certainly some sort of genius (or at least, brilliant enough for a member of an Elder race to cultivate his views and skill for fifteen years ~ Mind you, what Ralei says about them having disgarded the frailties of biology is rather strange, given their fixation on dissections themselves, though perhaps they lack an appropriate perspective, disdaining organic life as they do), and not at all incompetant as far as we know.

[NecronLord]

Also, someone was asking about how they transport on board hulks...

From Gorkamorka 'Da Uvver Book'

Orks use space hulks to transport them across the gulfs between stars. The Ork Meks construct immense traktor beam generators, each the size of a small town. They use these to trap a passing ’ulk in space, then transport themselves aboard with crude ‘telly portas’. The Meks then create an energy bubble in one part of the ’ulk, which the Orks can inhabit. The rest of the Boyz are ’ported on board and the traktor beams are then reversed to give the ’ulk a boost into space. From their small enclave, the Orks expand outwards, constructing more energy shields and creating physical barriers against the outside vacuum. Once a firm grip has been established, the Meks may build huge engines to allow the Orks to steer the ’ulk in a basic fashion, but much of the time it is left to the Ork gods Gork and Mork to guide them to a suitable destination.

This also has the rather appropriate quote: "This is not the place to explore the uncertain mire of xeno-biology that is Ork genetics"

[hongi]

On a side note though could we please not bring the UBER omega super weapons into this discussion, Sun Crusher, Death-Star, GEoM, etc. That invariably leads to a dick measuring competition over Alpha level psychers vs. super lasers and the most patient fan wank shall prevail.

Er, why? Alpha level psykers aren't involved in this scenario, whereas the Death Star most assuredly is.

[Todeswind]

Don't ork wyrdboys reach Alpha level if left uncontrolled? Or are they only able to reach gamma before their head's explode.

[NecronLord]

Don't ork wyrdboys reach Alpha level if left uncontrolled? Or are they only able to reach gamma before their head's explode.

I don't think there's been a serious effort to categorise them like that.

[Todeswind]

I know for a fact that Orks are able to disobey the laws of physics, the new codex mentions the Orks being able to not only function in Tzeenchian palaces without succumbing to the affects of madness but being able to trash them. The question is if this denotes some sort of passive collective psychic potential or if it is simply that the Orks don't waste time bothering to figure out why things work or don't work.

[Ford Prefect]

The Orks being passively psychic is basic information. The Waaagh! is a psychic in nature.

[Todeswind]

I apologize, my english is a bit out of practice, I feel that I did not express the words I intended. What I meant to convey was that the ability to operate in those environments is traditionally limited to deamons of Tzeench, I was wondering if the passive psychic abilities of the Orks allowed them to ignore the standard laws of the warp as well as physical laws or if it was more a product of "soccer hooliganry".

[Zablorg]

It's more of the fact that orks aren't very mutatable, as a rule. Chaos has some difficulty getting to them.

And the Starwars galaxy isn't exactly torrents of blood spewing from volcanoes so I don't actually see how it's relevant much.