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Captain Seafort wrote: Wouldn't be surprised - the place is a backwards shithole, and hypercomms are, IIRC, rare and expensive bits of kit.

Are you suggesting that the queen's cruiser is the only object on Tatooine capable of FTL communication? I must be missing something here, because that's just absurd. Are you saying that the queen's ship had a special kind of FTL transmitter, and that's what would make it stand out from everything else on Tatooine?

EDIT: Change "queen's cruiser" to "queen's yacht."

Speaking of this issue...

Darth Hoth wrote: How would such a thing work; is the Queen Amidala's ship the only one with a hyperwave communicator on Tatooine? Is it else distinctive in such a way as to make it immediately traceable? There must be billions of communications in the Outer Rim alone; how would the Federation isolate theirs, in particular?

I pretty much agree with you. However, you need to generate an explanation for why Qui Gon was so insistent that they not send any transmissions. Perhaps so as not to alert any locals to the ship's presence out in the desert?

Palantas wrote:Are you suggesting that the queen's cruiser is the only object on Tatooine capable of FTL communication? I must be missing something here, because that's just absurd. Are you saying that the queen's ship had a special kind of FTL transmitter, and that's what would make it stand out from everything else on Tatooine?

The latter. Subspace comms are two-a-penny, but true hypercomms, as I understand it, are entirely different bits of kit, and limited to those with substantial financial resources.

Captain Seafort wrote: The latter. Subspace comms are two-a-penny, but true hypercomms, as I understand it, are entirely different bits of kit, and limited to those with substantial financial resources.

I wasn't aware there were different types of FTL comms. So the queen's yacht had some sort of communications gear that, say, the Millennium Falcon did not have? Also, the queen's yacht not only would need to have a better system, but also not have access to the more common one. Otherwise, they could send a message using the common system.

EDIT: Spelling

Palantas wrote:I wasn't aware there were different types of FTL comms. So the queen's yacht had some sort of communications gear that, say, the Millennium Falcon did not have? Also, the queen's yacht not only would need to have a better system, but also not have access to the more common one. Otherwise, they could send a message using the common system.

Yes to the former, no to the latter. Hypercomms have much greater range than normal subspace devices, as they access the HoloNet rather than transmitting directly - it would have been the only way to communicate with Naboo or Coruscant. The problem is their exorbitant cost.

Captain Seafort wrote:Wouldn't be surprised - the place is a backwards shithole, and hypercomms are, IIRC, rare and expensive bits of kit.

So you would say that only a small percentage of the number of the smuggler/drifter ships that frequent Tatooine at any given time have hyperwave communications? Such a smuggler hub should generate quite a lot of transmissions.

Of course it's distinctive - as I understand it, all comms devices have unique characteristics, or at the very least particular designs do. Even if there are a few hypercomms on the planet, if the TF detects Nubian transmissions from Tatooine, it's not to be one of the locals, is it?

So the TradeFed is supposedly monitoring the hyperwave communications of the entire Outer Rim? And Tatooine has few enough transmitters that one more would immediately be apparent? Does the TradeFed keep record of the transmitters on Tatooine and of what manufacture they are? And what says their communicator was necessarily Nubian, by the way?

On the issue of comm distinctiveness, I would like a source; I cannot remember reading that anywhere.

That's the official, legal, situation. In practice, the "guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic" did as the Chancellor requested, and were a de facto, if not de jure, arm of the Republic's executive branch. If they were not, then why were they used as the Chancellor's personnal emissaries, why were they freqently used as the Chancellor's advisors, why were they used as bodyguards, why were they used as an internal investigatory service, and why were they used as special forces and military commanders, all before Palpatine's Clone War reorganisations?

Why did the Weimar Republic make use of the Freikorps? Because they were necessary, given the political situation - for political reasons, the Weimar Republic could not field a competent military, and given the extreme lengths Palpatine had to go to in order to form an army and a navy on the federal level, I would say the same was likely true of the Galactic Republic - if, of course, not for the exact same reasons. Neither Freikorps or Jedi were, however, part of the military or governmental apparatus of their respective state.

Anguirus wrote:Since when? As I understand it, Malastare is the Podracing capital by far. Certainly, the Boonta seems to attract a fair number of exotic racers, but I've never seen anything to make me think it's the greatest anything.

It might have been the Ep I ICS, or a comic; I shall try to return later with the source.

Palantas wrote:I pretty much agree with you. However, you need to generate an explanation for why Qui Gon was so insistent that they not send any transmissions. Perhaps so as not to alert any locals to the ship's presence out in the desert?

Not alerting the locals does not fit with him showing Watto the ship. Perhaps he was merely stupid? It is not as though we do not have ample precedent for that in case of prequel Jedi in general and that individual in particular from books, comics and other sources. Or perhaps it was his fatalism; it is noted in one of the comics surrounding Episode I that he could easily have taken the engine from Watto, without problems, but still chose to risk Anakin's life because he considered it the will of the Force.

Captain Seafort wrote:Yes to the former, no to the latter. Hypercomms have much greater range than normal subspace devices, as they access the HoloNet rather than transmitting directly - it would have been the only way to communicate with Naboo or Coruscant. The problem is their exorbitant cost.

Hyperwave does not necessarily use the HoloNet; there are other applications, military and private, that use similar technology but separate networks (as per the Complete Cross-Sections).

Captain Seafort wrote: Yes to the former, no to the latter. Hypercomms have much greater range than normal subspace devices, as they access the HoloNet rather than transmitting directly - it would have been the only way to communicate with Naboo or Coruscant. The problem is their exorbitant cost.

I can accept that there you have direct transmission and HoloNet access, two distinct methods of communication. Sorta like talking on a radio versus using the phone lines. However, I find it a little unlikely that HoloNet access is reserved for the rich. Are there any instances in the EU of someone without means using HoloNet communication?

Even if HoloNet use is expensive, I hardly think the queen's yacht is the only device on Tatooine to use such technology. There are rich people on Tatooine, particularly during a major sports event.

Hell, the Hutts at least would have the means, they'd have to just to maintain their sprawling criminal empire. Having to send out envoys to make everything work would be impossible to manage.

Darth Hoth wrote: Is Jedi cryptology so pathetic that the TradeFed could decipher a coded message and send people to deal with them as quick as/quicker than the Temple could? That is asinine.

You forgot something. Darth Maul was able to track them down because Queen Amidala either sent a message back to Naboo or was able to eventually track them down due to them accessing the message from Naboo.

A major smuggler/pirate port is exactly the place I would expect to have a major exchange industry, what with the diverse currencies such people are paid in or else obtain.

More like unfair exchange rates as what the poster said, and people who carry large amount of Republic currencies or access Republic currencies would be noticeable....

Granted, its still extremely absurd, but the best fit is that Qui Gon didn't want to attract the attention of the Hutts, who might had held the Queen hostage and ransomed them off either to the Republic or the Federation. Thus, he chose to lie low and not commit any attention such as the conversion of large amount of Republic credits to Hutt credits.

[quote[The Imperial State's authority over Hutt Space was at most a legal fiction, if the Han Solo trilogy's depiction is to be taken at face value; the Imperial employees on the Smugglers' Moon supposedly numbered in the single digit area/quote]
Except that Tarkin was able to mount an extensive blockade over Tatooine........ That's not a legal fiction by any means. What it simply means is that the Hutts retained finanicial and semi-political automony, no more and no less than any other Imperial Core World. Its noticeable purely because the Hutts are in the Outer Rim, where there were lesser Imperial freedoms.

PainRack wrote: You forgot something. Darth Maul was able to track them down because Queen Amidala either sent a message back to Naboo or was able to eventually track them down due to them accessing the message from Naboo.

Is that stated in the novelization or elsewhere? I'm pretty sure the film leaves things open to conjecture.

PainRack wrote:You forgot something. Darth Maul was able to track them down because Queen Amidala either sent a message back to Naboo or was able to eventually track them down due to them accessing the message from Naboo.

What Palantas said. And, well, does the TradeFed have access to the same resources as the Banite Sith in any case?

More like unfair exchange rates as what the poster said, and people who carry large amount of Republic currencies or access Republic currencies would be noticeable....

Granted, its still extremely absurd, but the best fit is that Qui Gon didn't want to attract the attention of the Hutts, who might had held the Queen hostage and ransomed them off either to the Republic or the Federation. Thus, he chose to lie low and not commit any attention such as the conversion of large amount of Republic credits to Hutt credits.

. . . But sponsoring a winning team in the Boonta Grand Evening Race coming out of nowhere is not drawing attention to oneself?

Except that Tarkin was able to mount an extensive blockade over Tatooine........ That's not a legal fiction by any means. What it simply means is that the Hutts retained finanicial and semi-political automony, no more and no less than any other Imperial Core World. Its noticeable purely because the Hutts are in the Outer Rim, where there were lesser Imperial freedoms.

Except that Tatooine is not inside Hutt Space itself on any map that I am aware of. The Hutts do not have political authority there in the day of the Empire, when it has a Governor and a Prefect. By contrast, Hutt-ruled planets such as Nar Shaddaa have only the barest pretence of Imperial authority on them, and the local governor's command did not boast a single Star Destroyer.

Palantas wrote:

PainRack wrote: You forgot something. Darth Maul was able to track them down because Queen Amidala either sent a message back to Naboo or was able to eventually track them down due to them accessing the message from Naboo.

Is that stated in the novelization or elsewhere? I'm pretty sure the film leaves things open to conjecture.

Its open to conjecture even in the novel, as Maul was able to "trace" their location to Tatooine.

What Palantas said. And, well, does the TradeFed have access to the same resources as the Banite Sith in any case?

A galaxy spanning open organisation is going to be able to trace and obtain such information much easier than a secret, small extremist group.

. . . But sponsoring a winning team in the Boonta Grand Evening Race coming out of nowhere is not drawing attention to oneself?

And guess what? Who knew? The only one who even knew that Qui Gon sponsered a pod was Watto. And even he presumably knew that the pod was actually Anakin.......

Except that Tatooine is not inside Hutt Space itself on any map that I am aware of. The Hutts do not have political authority there in the day of the Empire, when it has a Governor and a Prefect. By contrast, Hutt-ruled planets such as Nar Shaddaa have only the barest pretence of Imperial authority on them, and the local governor's command did not boast a single Star Destroyer

Conceded.

PainRack wrote:Its open to conjecture even in the novel, as Maul was able to "trace" their location to Tatooine.

That sounds to me as if it could just as easily have been some Force mumbo jumbo or whatever . . . which makes better sense than a single hyperwave transceiver in the Outer Rim being easily traceable.

A galaxy spanning open organisation is going to be able to trace and obtain such information much easier than a secret, small extremist group.

Can we take that for granted? Palpatine has extensive contacts and intelligence-gathering assets in his purely secular aspect, and the Banite Sith have had a thousand years to build up their networks, in addition to precognition. The TradeFed's intelligence appears rather pathetic, given that they were unaware (or only vaguely aware) of the entire Gungan race on a planet they were planning to invade.

And guess what? Who knew? The only one who even knew that Qui Gon sponsered a pod was Watto. And even he presumably knew that the pod was actually Anakin.......

Oh, come on. If a brand new team from nowhere joins for the Formula One Grand Prix a day in advance with new, revolutionary technology (the Ep I ICS makes clear Anakin's podracer is truly cutting-edge engineering, stupid as that is) and promoting a local talent, do you honestly think the media would not be swamping them? Especially if he wins after a breathtaking finale?

I don't remember which book it was in, possibly one of the young Han Solo books, but it was mentioned that the Millenium Falcon could illegally access the Holonet for trans-galactic communications. It's possible that hypercomms, at least during the Imperial era, were either restricted or heavily taxed (either the devices themselves were taxed, or you paid for the usage.). I've no idea how this would differ from the Old Republic.

What's the range of subspace transmitters? 100 lightyears?

Couple thoughts.

First based on their last known heading the Trae Federation could make a rough estimate of where the Queen's Yacht was going. This reduces the number of locations some. Depending on how good SW sensors are the Trade Fed might even know of the ships damage and thus eliminate more choices based on this.

Now Qui-Gon avoided planets with Trade Federation presence which being a shipping conglomerate might mean ships in orbit or major assets. This may limit choices even further.

So Qui-Gon may have said no transmissions because he surmissed that the Trade Fed would limit him down a few dozen or hundred planets, a small percent of the galactic whole.

Now being the Queen's Yacht it might not be set up for covert communications so sending anonymouse messages or receiving messages without giving your name might be impossible.

The one we see Padme take is almost like an email. Properly done no matter where you are a large goverment agency could track down to a relatively small where you pick up your email in our world. If it was an official message say sent to Queen@naboo.com (yeah yeah bs I know) then retrieving it may mark where you are.

So based on limited choices where they could be hiding combined with a lack of covert tech on the Queen's ship might mean give yourself away when you send or receive messages.

Something else to consider is that Qui-Gon was fairly certain someone else was behind the TF's actions on Naboo and it was that person that he was concerned about finding/tracking them on Tattooine, not necessarily the TF.

Also Qui Gon states that Tattooine is merely controlled by the Hutts.

PainRack wrote: A galaxy spanning open organisation is going to be able to trace and obtain such information much easier than a secret, small extremist group.

That certainly wasn't Palpatine's opinion of the situation. What's more, Maul did trace the queen (through whatever means), something the Trade Federation leadership considered "impossible."

Darth Hoth wrote: That sounds to me as if it could just as easily have been some Force mumbo jumbo or whatever . . . which makes better sense than a single hyperwave transceiver in the Outer Rim being easily traceable.

Then why would Qui Gon order Captain Tanaka NOT to reply to the message? And this is a direct G canon movie incident.

Can we take that for granted? Palpatine has extensive contacts and intelligence-gathering assets in his purely secular aspect, and the Banite Sith have had a thousand years to build up their networks, in addition to precognition. The TradeFed's intelligence appears rather pathetic, given that they were unaware (or only vaguely aware) of the entire Gungan race on a planet they were planning to invade.

The Naboo themselves were unaware the Gungans had an army.........
Furthermore, the Trade Federation had monopolies on major trade routes, were able to block access to trading by other partners, which suggest a considerable industrial espionage network.
Granted, the Sith did have impressive intelligence assets, so I concede the argument that the Federation was more able to conduct message traces than the Sith.

Oh, come on. If a brand new team from nowhere joins for the Formula One Grand Prix a day in advance with new, revolutionary technology (the Ep I ICS makes clear Anakin's podracer is truly cutting-edge engineering, stupid as that is) and promoting a local talent, do you honestly think the media would not be swamping them? Especially if he wins after a breathtaking finale?

Except that Tatooine was in no way a Formula Grand One Prix, the novelisation establishes that other major centres of podracing exist and Obiwan/Qui Gon has seen them. Furthermore, the team that entered was Anakin, under Watto. Qui Gon merely "provided" the pod..... which Watto had to know was actually Anakin as it was the previous pod he wrecked racing for Watto.

PainRack wrote:Then why would Qui Gon order Captain Tanaka NOT to reply to the message? And this is a direct G canon movie incident.

Because there might be spies on Naboo that would be attempting to learn about the queen's whereabouts and he did not trust her not to slip them some information by mistake? Because he did not want her to inadvertently give the TradeFed legitimacy or propaganda material? There are other possible explanations that are more consistent with the EU and common sense.

The Naboo themselves were unaware the Gungans had an army.........

Do they say so in the film? Considering that they had fought in the past, that would make little sense.

Except that Tatooine was in no way a Formula Grand One Prix, the novelisation establishes that other major centres of podracing exist and Obiwan/Qui Gon has seen them. Furthermore, the team that entered was Anakin, under Watto. Qui Gon merely "provided" the pod..... which Watto had to know was actually Anakin as it was the previous pod he wrecked racing for Watto.

Except that the Ep I ICS clearly labels the Boonta Eve Race as a major event in the sport as a whole that draws drivers from all other the Outer Rim, and it is frequented by such eminent personalities as several Hutt lords and (arguably, depending on interpretation) the Prince Xizor. Furthermore, that Watto nominally sponsored him does in no way explain why the media would not be interested in the origin of a piece of unique technology that won said major racing event.

Darth Hoth wrote: Because there might be spies on Naboo that would be attempting to learn about the queen's whereabouts and he did not trust her not to slip them some information by mistake? Because he did not want her to inadvertently give the TradeFed legitimacy or propaganda material? There are other possible explanations that are more consistent with the EU and common sense.

Errr........... Occam Razor suggest otherwise. The message was sent out, Qui Gon says don't reply.Amidala reads it and next, Maul discover their location.

Furthermore, rounding people up into concentration camps and starving/dying= Qui Gon first thought being, Oh no, the Queen would provide them with propaganda or tell them where they are? And remember, he told this to the captain..... not Amidala herself. We never did learn who eventually told Amidala that there was a message from her advisors.

Do they say so in the film? Considering that they had fought in the past, that would make little sense.

Hmmm............... Damn. I can't remember whether in the novelisation, Jar Jar revelation of the Grand Army was a total surprise to every Nabooian or just the Queen itself.....

Except that the Ep I ICS clearly labels the Boonta Eve Race as a major event in the sport as a whole that draws drivers from all other the Outer Rim,

The Outer Rim is NOT the SW galaxy. The Asian Football Federation holds a major soccer tournament here in SEA every few years, it simply isn't noticeable whatsoever to soccer as a whole!

We can also point to other examples such as Japan baseball tournaments.

and it is frequented by such eminent personalities as several Hutt lords and (arguably, depending on interpretation) the Prince Xizor. Furthermore, that Watto nominally sponsored him does in no way explain why the media would not be interested in the origin of a piece of unique technology that won said major racing event.

1. The HUTTS sponsered the tournament in the first place. Why would that means its noticeable on a galactic scale?
2. Furthermore, again, that has nothing whatsoever to do with Qui Gon Jinn. Despite the blatent lie told by Qui Gon, Watto had to know that the pod was Anakin as it was essentially the pod he wrecked previous, reworked in between.

PainRack wrote:Errr........... Occam Razor suggest otherwise. The message was sent out, Qui Gon says don't reply.Amidala reads it and next, Maul discover their location.

If it was that easy, why would Nute Gunray think that it was impossible to find them? Either the TradeFed are even more of a bunch of truly momentous retards than the canon already has it, or Maul had access to some mumbo jumbo they did not, being an heir to the Sith tradition. Which explanation is more reasonable? And which one fits best with the EU depiction of the HoloNet/hyperwave networks?

The Outer Rim is NOT the SW galaxy. The Asian Football Federation holds a major soccer tournament here in SEA every few years, it simply isn't noticeable whatsoever to soccer as a whole!

We can also point to other examples such as Japan baseball tournaments.

Except that podracing is an Outer Rim sport. It is not played anywhere but there. So, biggest in the Outer Rim means biggest in the galaxy.

1. The HUTTS sponsered the tournament in the first place. Why would that means its noticeable on a galactic scale?

An event that has at least two of the galaxy's major crime lords attending is not worthy of notice? Especially when ICS and EU alike describe it as a major happening?

2. Furthermore, again, that has nothing whatsoever to do with Qui Gon Jinn. Despite the blatent lie told by Qui Gon, Watto had to know that the pod was Anakin as it was essentially the pod he wrecked previous, reworked in between.

I think you are missing the point. Which is, regardless of who actually provided it, the media will want to dig into the story of a piece of unique technology that won a major race.

Darth Hoth wrote: If it was that easy, why would Nute Gunray think that it was impossible to find them? Either the TradeFed are even more of a bunch of truly momentous retards than the canon already has it, or Maul had access to some mumbo jumbo they did not, being an heir to the Sith tradition. Which explanation is more reasonable? And which one fits best with the EU depiction of the HoloNet/hyperwave networks?

Notice the sequence: Gunray says it can't be done..... then he SETs up the tranmission, which Amidala replied to. Trace established.
Unless you believe that despite being confined to a concentration camp, they were able to just send a message to Queen Amidala without the TF knowing.

As for the ＥＵ depiction of the HoloNet/hyperwave, let me remind you that Obiwan Kenobi establish that not only was Anakin communicator NOT on Naboo, he was able to direct a message DIRECTLY to the Queen yahct.Clearly, there IS a way to find out where a person is from far. And Anakin was supposed to be hiding with Amidala!

Except that podracing is an Outer Rim sport. It is not played anywhere but there. So, biggest in the Outer Rim means biggest in the galaxy.

That's nonsensical. Podracing is popular in the Outer Rim does not equate to it being played nowhere but there. You're just subscribing to an extreme form of miminalism.

An event that has at least two of the galaxy's major crime lords attending is not worthy of notice? Especially when ICS and EU alike describe it as a major happening?

There's a hotel in Cuba that had 4 gangster leaders staying in it over a short period during Prohibition. Does that make that hotel and Cuba a major event?

Again, we already know that the podrace itself is established by the Hutts. It would be surprising not to have one Hutt leader on Tatooine. However, the Hutts is NOT the galaxy.

I think you are missing the point. Which is, regardless of who actually provided it, the media will want to dig into the story of a piece of unique technology that won a major race.

Focusing on......... Anakin and Watto. And Anakin would be gone...... on the exact same day, or at worst, one day later. With Qui Gon and the Queen.......
And this would be done after the event. As opposed to how exchanging Republic credits would had been done prior to any repairs being made and their escape.

Captain Seafort wrote: Of course it's distinctive - as I understand it, all comms devices have unique characteristics, or at the very least particular designs do. Even if there are a few hypercomms on the planet, if the TF detects Nubian transmissions from Tatooine, it's not to be one of the locals, is it?

Chances are that the Jedi are allocated certain frequencies to use with the hyperwave radio and that's what the Trade Federation is listening for. Even if their not (and really I'm not sure how else it would work. This is what happens in RL.) than the TF is likely aware of the power and range of the radio on the Queens yacht and it wouldn't take much work to figure out who is signalling. This is all pretty basic stuff today. I'm sure my Mess brothers who were actually in EW could tell you more.

Wow, I'm gone for a bit and the conversation wanders into a related, and totally interesting area... thanks!

I'll let the other person know I was thinking of Tatooine Ghost (which I haven't read).

Darth Hoth wrote:
If it was that easy, why would Nute Gunray think that it was impossible to find them? Either the TradeFed are even more of a bunch of truly momentous retards than the canon already has it, or Maul had access to some mumbo jumbo they did not, being an heir to the Sith tradition. Which explanation is more reasonable? And which one fits best with the EU depiction of the HoloNet/hyperwave networks?

Actually, that's a point. Actually, as I see it, the easiest way for Maul to find them would be for Sidious to find them for him. Namely, by being the Senator for Naboo, and thus the kind of person that the Queen might logically call if she was in trouble.

The tracking method doesn't necessarily need to be technological, after all.