Ex-Tesla VP Says Congress Should Tax Gas to $6 per Gallon

[Starglider]

And how the christ is the guy supposed to get his boat or camping equipment deep within the wilderness without said vehicle?

What percentage of the population tows a boat 'deep into the wilderness'? Be serious, most SUVs never go off road, most trucks never tow anything. In fact you don't need even need a truck to tow a boat unless a) it's so big it barely fits on the road or b) you're going up ridiculously steep grades. I see plenty of people here towing sailboats and caravans with standard family cars.

And no, I don't mean to the nice camping sites that are just off a nicely paved road for the day-trippers.

I have a 4WD station wagon and it is more than sufficient to carry all our camping gear and a week's worth of supplies down assorted rutted tracks, muddy fields and mountain roads (admittedly if we had kids I'd need a roof rack). This already puts us in a tiny percentage of the population who bother to do such things. Only a very tiny minority actually drive around in rough terrain looking for remote places to camp - and they drive proper SUVs, not the crap fake ones so popular in the US.

Hey stark, If your engine goes above 3-4 thousand RPM while doing everyday highway driving (60 MPH/ 97 KMH) you have an engine that's too small.

The redline on my car is 4000 RPM. Of course, like so many European cars, it is a diesel.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Nice sentiment, but kind of unworkable in America. Europe is much smaller and more densely packed, meaning that their public transit can take the burden of transportation much more easily (and in places in America with high pop density, like Manhattan, it accomplishes the same thing). With America's big gaping open spaces, forcing a switch to smaller cars in one big swoop would run the economy off the road. Unlike Europe, in most cities in North America it is a necessity to own a car, since we have neither trains nor trolleys nor bike-paths nor small cities to live in. But gradually increasing taxes that fund passenger rail infrastructure? Yeah, that'd be a great idea.

[erik_t]

And how the christ is the guy supposed to get his boat or camping equipment deep within the wilderness without said vehicle?

What percentage of the population tows a boat 'deep into the wilderness'? Be serious, most SUVs never go off road, most trucks never tow anything. In fact you don't need even need a truck to tow a boat unless a) it's so big it barely fits on the road or b) you're going up ridiculously steep grades. I see plenty of people here towing sailboats and caravans with standard family cars.

I have a 4WD station wagon and it is more than sufficient to carry all our camping gear and a week's worth of supplies down assorted rutted tracks, muddy fields and mountain roads (admittedly if we had kids I'd need a roof rack). This already puts us in a tiny percentage of the population who bother to do such things. Only a very tiny minority actually drive around in rough terrain looking for remote places to camp - and they drive proper SUVs, not the crap fake ones so popular in the US.

You surely just forgot to post your justification for these claims, right? I know that many folks here tend to think that if they take a popular position then they can skimp on the justification, but I have too much respect for you to assume that in this case.

I'm sure you have the numbers right at hand. May we see them?

[MKSheppard]

I see plenty of people here towing sailboats and caravans with standard family cars.

I see plenty of people on the road with trucks towing heavy duty trailers, recreation campers, etc; heavy duty stuff like the Ford F-350 with dually wheels is a popular option for towing trailers full of horses near here in horse country.

[Bounty]

Also, I don't know much about cars, but I doubt running an engine barely under the red line for 16 hours just to stay at interstate highway speeds is going to do it any good.

Funny, I've never had a problem driving at interstate speeds (which is 74MPH around here) in a 1200 or 1400, below the red line.. Petrol, mind, not even a diesel. If a car rattles at those speeds it's a shitty car to begin with.

What confuses me here is not so much that Americans like their big engines, it's that they seem to like big wasteful engines. A straight-six can get 40MPG with conservative driving and proper engineering; you don't need a itty-bitty two-stroke to get decent economy. Yet people - certain people here - are fawning over 25MPG cars as if they're the second coming of Christ in terms of mileage, as if the concept of a big, frugal engine doesn't even occur to them.

Or this bizarre idea that smaller cars (not tiny cars, smaller ones) are somehow death traps by default. "Cramped cabins"? I'm 6 foot and change and even in the back of a Fiesta I'vfe got head- and legroom to spare - you don't need a voluminous cabin to have a spacious one when you're good at using the space you have.. Where are these misconceptions coming from?

[Flash]

Hey stark, If your engine goes above 3-4 thousand RPM while doing everyday highway driving (60 MPH/ 97 KMH) you have an engine that's too small.

Actually, if your engine is above 4000 rpm doing 100kph, you're probably in the wrong gear.

I drive a 2L 4cyl, and I almost NEVER get the revs up that high. I checked today on teh drive home from work - I sit at about 80kph for a good chunk of the trip - and under acceleration the revs went up to 3000. Maintaining 80kph had it sitting just under 2000rpm. I've never even come CLOSE to the redlien, which is about 6500rpm on my car.

Also, I don't know much about cars, but I doubt running an engine barely under the red line for 16 hours just to stay at interstate highway speeds is going to do it any good.

Like Bounty, i've never had problems driving at highway speeds under the redline either. I've done the drive from Brisbane to Sydney several times, always in a 4 cylinder. 110 KPH for a lot of the 900k trip - doesn't even get close to the redline.

[Bounty]

Maintaining 80kph had it sitting just under 2000rpm. I've never even come CLOSE to the redlien, which is about 6500rpm on my car.

I'm starting to get the distinct impressions some Americans think car development stopped sometime around 1972, or that every "small" car is a cardboard Yugo.

[Netko]

For that matter, even a Yugo doesn't have problems with the 100-120 km/h highway speeds, as long as its maintained properly. I've made several trips to the seaside (300ish km) back when I had mine, and while its certainly a much less enjoyable trip then in a modern car, its certainly doable. Yes, its underpowered somewhat for the modern 130-140km/h highway (see what I did there? ), but even that piece of socialist "luxury" can do it.

[folti78]

Also, I don't know much about cars, but I doubt running an engine barely under the red line for 16 hours just to stay at interstate highway speeds is going to do it any good.

Funny, I've never had a problem driving at interstate speeds (which is 74MPH around here) in a 1200 or 1400, below the red line.. Petrol, mind, not even a diesel. If a car rattles at those speeds it's a shitty car to begin with.

Central Europe reporting: In my limited experience with local cars, the ones having to go near the red line to maintain 80mph on an interstate mostly old Comecon cars which never designed to go that fast or badly maintained older clunkers imported from the western europe. Newer, properly maintained cars don't have this problem, unless you overload them.

Some exceptions are cars which have non-passenger car engines, like the Van versions of the Fiat Uno/Punto/Panda cars, which have an 1600-1700 ccm turbo-diesel engine (looks like a downscaled version of the Fiat Ducato's engine). These cars start to have noise and vibration problems over 74mph and start to get really whiney over 87mph(140kph), along with the elevated risk of damaging your engine. Of course these cars intended to be used as utility cars by companies and not penis mobiles for civilians.

What confuses me here is not so much that Americans like their big engines, it's that they seem to like big wasteful engines. A straight-six can get 40MPG with conservative driving and proper engineering; you don't need a itty-bitty two-stroke to get decent economy. Yet people - certain people here - are fawning over 25MPG cars as if they're the second coming of Christ in terms of mileage, as if the concept of a big, frugal engine doesn't even occur to them.

Off topic but even the old Trabant 601s had better economy than that (this claims 26mpg for city and 34mpg for highway, which is roughly in line with my memories of ~6-8 liter/100km mileage).
Although driving it over 45mph will ruin the economy and quite an adventure because the thing start to sound like it's going to fall apart soon...

Or this bizarre idea that smaller cars (not tiny cars, smaller ones) are somehow death traps by default.

Suzuki Swifts' (known as Geo Metro or Chevrolet Sprint in the US) unlucky encounters with oversized and overweight tank-on-wheels SUVs?

[Bounty]

For that matter, even a Yugo doesn't have problems with the 100-120 km/h highway speeds, as long as its maintained properly. I've made several trips to the seaside (300ish km) back when I had mine, and while its certainly a much less enjoyable trip then in a modern car, its certainly doable. Yes, its underpowered somewhat for the modern 130-140km/h highway (see what I did there? ), but even that piece of socialist "luxury" can do it.

Sorry about that - it's just such a funny shorthand for "cheap Eastern Bloc econo-mobile"

Suzuki Swifts' (known as Geo Metro or Chevrolet Sprint in the US) unlucky encounters with oversized and overweight tank-on-wheels SUVs?

Even so... have you seen NCAP tests of those monster-SUV's? I'd rather be in a Swift than a penismobile.

[Starglider]

I see plenty of people here towing sailboats and caravans with standard family cars.

I see plenty of people on the road with trucks towing heavy duty trailers, recreation campers, etc; heavy duty stuff like the Ford F-350 with dually wheels is a popular option for towing trailers full of horses near here in horse country.

Yes, and? My point is that it is quite possible to tow sizable items with a relatively small car. Even dual horse boxes are often towed by a 4 cylinder land rover here (admittedly usually with diesels and low gearing). Yes, if you are towing horses on a daily basis then you probably should have a V8 and sturdy transmission (or better a purpose built van), but this is about buying patterns for America as a whole and 75% of Americans live in cities. By comparison approximately half a percent of Americans own horses.

Sometimes I wonder if all this 'oh you can't convince us to abandon huge cars' business is actually just the fear of the petrolhead minority that their hobby will get more expensive if monstrous cars become the exception rather than the norm. Frankly it should be more expensive, because the external costs of this behaviour (in environmental damage, resource depletion and additional road fatalities) are rather high. In Europe you can have huge 'luxury pickups' if you want (although most people with that kind of money spare get a sports car), but you pay an appropriate premium for it (e.g. UK road tax bands based on CO2 per mile).

[Manus Celer Dei]

knee-jerk-car-hating-vegans-who-don't-think-cars-should-be-anything-but-transportation

Sorry, this statement utterly baffles me. What do you think cars should be, if not transportation? I mean, that's what they're for.

[Bounty]

knee-jerk-car-hating-vegans-who-don't-think-cars-should-be-anything-but-transportation

Sorry, this statement utterly baffles me. What do you think cars should be, if not transportation? I mean, that's what they're for.

Perhaps they should be an "expression", a "way of life", a "statement"? Basically all the bullshit the ads try to shove down your throat? The stuff any sensible person ignores when he picks a car?

[Manus Celer Dei]

knee-jerk-car-hating-vegans-who-don't-think-cars-should-be-anything-but-transportation

Sorry, this statement utterly baffles me. What do you think cars should be, if not transportation? I mean, that's what they're for.

Perhaps they should be an "expression", a "way of life", a "statement"? Basically all the bullshit the ads try to shove down your throat? The stuff any sensible person ignores when he picks a car?

There's people who actually take that crap seriously? Jesus christ.

[Starglider]

knee-jerk-car-hating-vegans-who-don't-think-cars-should-be-anything-but-transportation

Sorry, this statement utterly baffles me. What do you think cars should be, if not transportation? I mean, that's what they're for.

Well cars can be toys, e.g. a sports car. I fail to understand why you would want a lumbering slow pickup truck or fake-SUV as a toy, when you could have something exciting like an Atom or a Nemesis. But then plenty of people restore and drive mediocre-to-awful 70s and 80s cars as a hobby, which I don't understand either but is fine. The point is though that it usually makes little sense to try and combine your toy and your practical transportation into the same vehicle.

[Captain Seafort]

I fail to understand why you would want a lumbering slow pickup truck or fake-SUV as a toy

Simple - people wanting to look and feel as though they regularly go walking/mountain biking, etc, in the countryside, regardless of how practical their would actually be, or of the fact that they'd have a fit if even a speck of mud landed on their Chelsea tractor.

[Teebs]

Simple - people wanting to look and feel as though they regularly go walking/mountain biking, etc, in the countryside, regardless of how practical their would actually be, or of the fact that they'd have a fit if even a speck of mud landed on their Chelsea tractor.

Actually you can buy (and presumably people do) fake mud for the things. That way you can look even more authentic whilst doing the school run.

[Captain Seafort]

Jesus wept. That I hadn't heard of. What's next? Fake cow shit for the tires?

[Sky Captain]

Why would someone need a car with extremely wasteful 5 - 6 liter engine for everyday driving. I have driven my friend`s VW Passat equipped with 2.5 liter TDI engine and it has plenty acceleration if you need to overtake someone on a highway, has no problems maintaining 140 km/h, can comfortably seat 4 people, has enough space for everyday luggage (folding down rear seats allow to carry even some sizable items like fridge or washing machine) and consumes on average 6 - 8 liters/100km of fuel.

Seems I will never understand why anyone would realistically need a big, fuel thirsty, difficult to park in tight places pickup truck for everyday driving except cases when such a vehicle is necessary to tow heavy trailers through difficult to travel roads on everyday basis.

[Captain Seafort]

For everyday stuff you can use something far smaller - I do 250-300 miles a week with a 1.0L Citroen C1, get 60 MPG, and am very happy with it thank you very much. I'd have problems if I tried to hammer it, but for a steady 70 mph cruise down the motorway it's perfectly adequate.

[folti78]

Suzuki Swifts' (known as Geo Metro or Chevrolet Sprint in the US) unlucky encounters with oversized and overweight tank-on-wheels SUVs?

Even so... have you seen NCAP tests of those monster-SUV's? I'd rather be in a Swift than a penismobile.

Thanks, for the links. The Swift safeties are fairly good for it's size, but the question is how it fares against a 2 or 3 times heavier penismobile during a crash?

Swits even here are considered a bit of deathtraps, although it's more the result of crashes with disproportionally larger vehicles and the shoddy quality of the first batches coming out from the Suzuki factory in Esztergom during the early 90s.

[Sky Captain]

For everyday stuff you can use something far smaller - I do 250-300 miles a week with a 1.0L Citroen C1, get 60 MPG, and am very happy with it thank you very much. I'd have problems if I tried to hammer it, but for a steady 70 mph cruise down the motorway it's perfectly adequate.

Exactly, when I will consider buying my first car I will look for something that gets about 5 liter/100km. I gave my previous post as an example that you can have a spacious comfortable car with decent performance and still get good fuel economy compared to gas guzzlers driven in US.

[Vain]

For what it's worth, I drive a car with a six liter V8. I freely admit that it's a luxury that I indulge in because I can afford it. It is an absolute joy to drive, and I love taking it on road trips when I have the time.

The price of gas doesn't factor in to my driving patterns at all. Gas could be $20 a gallon, and it wouldn't affect the usage of my vehicle.

As a consumer, I don't have a problem with increased taxes on gas, particularly if they're intended to fund infrastructure improvements. That having been said, our economy runs on the ICE and increased gas prices will result in increased everything prices. Maybe only tax gas for consumers, with exemptions for freight, industry, farming equipment, etc? I would be totally fine with that.

Of course, it goes without saying that this should be a gradual increase. It isn't constructive to suddenly yank the rug out from under people who depend on their car. However, with enough warning and lead up time, have at it.

[Knife]

lol, you kids make me laugh. Now while I do not encourage people to buy huge ass trucks and want the US to adopt a more sane automobile and energy policy, your empty musings as to why an American would want such ring hollow. It doesn't take much to understand why a person would want something bigger and better, what you can't understand is that the *thing* some want bigger and better isn't the *thing* you'd want bigger and better. Quit singing to the choir and rubbing your chubbys together.

American's have been sold these huge trucks with sly marketing that preys on the American myth of being rough and tumble, pioneers and outdoors men. This, of course, is a myth as I said. Most American's would perish quickly in the deep woods all by their lonesome but it is a strong current in the national psyche. Now, trucks were not always these ginormous monsters. Old Chev pickups were a reasonable size, or Fords etc...

American greed for bigger and better is focused on their houses and cars. Mostly fueled by the cheap gas we've had for a few decades.

[Bounty]

your empty musings as to why an American would want such ring hollow

Which empty musing would those be?