What was Yoda's plan?

[Tiriol]

Considering Yoda's musings on Vader during Episode III ("The boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader.") I don't think that he believed Anakin/Vader to be redeemeable. Although we can't know for sure, since the issue was never adequately brought up between luke and Yoda; between Obi-Wan and Luke, yes.

I would disagree with this. Yoda and Obi-Wan spent the next 20 years meditating and thinking on the situation and communing with Qui-Gon. If they didn't have a sense that Vader could be redeemed, I don't think they would have even bothered with training Luke. Assuming of course that they still believed in the Prophecy of the Chosen one, which I think is highly probable since Qui-Gon strongly believed in it.

Anakin will bring balance to the Force, at this point it was going to be by being redeemed by his son and destroying the Sith, instead of at the point in ROTS, where he killed Dooku, but made the wrong decision in regards to Palpatine.

I'd think that one possibility is that they [Yoda & Obi-Wan Kenobi] still considered Anakin Skywalker to be the Chosen One, but to fulfill the prophecy and to restore the balance of the Force Anakin's offspring would have to confront him. They could still believe in the prophecy and in the idea of Anakin as the Chosen One, but they might reject the idea that Anakin would have to be on the Jedi's side or even an active participant at all. That doesn't require Vader to be redeemeable.

However, I happen to believe that this was the one point that made Luke so special, apart from his genetic connection with Anakin: that he believed, that he could actually sense that Vader was not entirely corrupted, not entirely enslaved to darkness like Palpatine. Kenobi and Yoda might have intended him to be a weapon against the Sith and Vader in particular; but Luke was more than that and was unwilling to simply hack away at Vader.

[Havok]

Just seems damn dangerous to send him out without a full understanding of what he might be facing. And like I said in another post. How did Obiwan an Yoda know that Vader did not also possess force lightning?

What's the difference? It was dangerous to send out fully trained Council members with full knowledge of what Palpatine and a Sith could do.

The point of Luke was as a weapon. He had all of his father's power (if not more) and his drive and determination, but was allowed to develop as the Force wanted, not as the Jedi Order wanted, which was part of the problem with Yoda's Order and part of what he spoke of when he talked about the arrogance of the Jedi. Basically, in instructing Luke the way he did, he was acknowledging that Qui-Gon and his ways, following the will of the Force, were the correct ways for the Jedi.

Luke was allowed to make his own choice by following his heart and the will of the Force without the structured rules of the Jedi forcing him any direction.

[Havok]

Anakin will bring balance to the Force, at this point it was going to be by being redeemed by his son and destroying the Sith, instead of at the point in ROTS, where he killed Dooku, but made the wrong decision in regards to Palpatine.

Indeed, there is a good reason why the scene on the Invisible Hand is so close to the scene on the DSII. Though, I don't think Anakin cemented his choice till Coruscant and disarming Windu. That was the point of no return for him, rather like Luke's about to be fried to death by Force lightening.

Absolutely.

Side thought: I wonder how much responsibility Padme should shoulder in regard to Anakin's fall. If she could have stayed strong on Geonosis, would Anakin have felt the dread of her loss so strongly, if at all, if she hadn't given him what he wanted?

[The Romulan Republic]

Considering Yoda's musings on Vader during Episode III ("The boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader.") I don't think that he believed Anakin/Vader to be redeemeable. Although we can't know for sure, since the issue was never adequately brought up between luke and Yoda; between Obi-Wan and Luke, yes.

I would disagree with this. Yoda and Obi-Wan spent the next 20 years meditating and thinking on the situation and communing with Qui-Gon. If they didn't have a sense that Vader could be redeemed, I don't think they would have even bothered with training Luke. Assuming of course that they still believed in the Prophecy of the Chosen one, which I think is highly probable since Qui-Gon strongly believed in it.

Even if Qui-Gon did, it seems that Obi-wan, at least, adamantly insisted that Luke had to kill Vader. Perhaps they believed they were wrong about the Chosen One, or perhaps they believed the prophecy could be fulfilled in a roundabout way, through the Chosen One's son. Or perhaps they believed that the Prophecy was misinterperated. Doesn't Yoda say as much in Episode 3? Plenty of fans have speculated that "bring balance to the Force" actually meant killing the Jedi, right? Isn't it possible that a similar thought occured to Yoda and Obi-wan? That the prophecy had a different meaning from what they had initially believed?

Anakin will bring balance to the Force, at this point it was going to be by being redeemed by his son and destroying the Sith, instead of at the point in ROTS, where he killed Dooku, but made the wrong decision in regards to Palpatine.

While its possible that Obi-wan and Yoda foresaw and planned for all the events of the OT, I think it questionable that they planned this. Isn't the simplest explanation that they fully intended for Luke to kill Vader (at least Kenobi did), but that Luke than threw a wrench into the plans by going off in his own direction and doing something they had not planned for or anticipated?

[Havok]

I'd think that one possibility is that they [Yoda & Obi-Wan Kenobi] still considered Anakin Skywalker to be the Chosen One, but to fulfill the prophecy and to restore the balance of the Force Anakin's offspring would have to confront him. They could still believe in the prophecy and in the idea of Anakin as the Chosen One, but they might reject the idea that Anakin would have to be on the Jedi's side or even an active participant at all. That doesn't require Vader to be redeemeable.

I have to disagree. I think that absolutely requires Anakin to be redeemable. Nothing is gained by Vader simply turning on Palpatine, if he is not going to either be destroyed himself, or turn away from the Dark. You go from one ruthless Emperor to another. I suppose you could say that Luke could join with Vader, dethrone the Emperor, then kill Vader, but again, that leaves you with another possible Emperor.

However, I happen to believe that this was the one point that made Luke so special, apart from his genetic connection with Anakin: that he believed, that he could actually sense that Vader was not entirely corrupted, not entirely enslaved to darkness like Palpatine. Kenobi and Yoda might have intended him to be a weapon against the Sith and Vader in particular; but Luke was more than that and was unwilling to simply hack away at Vader.

This I agree with this 100%. I have always maintained that Luke is a redeemer and that is his special talent. He has brought his father back from complete darkness, and if you delve into the EU, himself, Mara Jade and Kyp Durron to name a few.

[Tiriol]

I'd think that one possibility is that they [Yoda & Obi-Wan Kenobi] still considered Anakin Skywalker to be the Chosen One, but to fulfill the prophecy and to restore the balance of the Force Anakin's offspring would have to confront him. They could still believe in the prophecy and in the idea of Anakin as the Chosen One, but they might reject the idea that Anakin would have to be on the Jedi's side or even an active participant at all. That doesn't require Vader to be redeemeable.

I have to disagree. I think that absolutely requires Anakin to be redeemable. Nothing is gained by Vader simply turning on Palpatine, if he is not going to either be destroyed himself, or turn away from the Dark. You go from one ruthless Emperor to another. I suppose you could say that Luke could join with Vader, dethrone the Emperor, then kill Vader, but again, that leaves you with another possible Emperor.

Which might, according to that theory of mine, be their ultimate goal: not that the Sith theocracy would continue, but that Vader being destroyed would bring about the balance of the Force. Which does leave open the fate of Darth Sidious, although they might have figured out that Vader's destruction would somehow defeat Sidious, as well, since the balance would have been restored (apparently the prophecy was quite murky to begin with, since there was so much doubt about it among the Jedi Council and the Order itself). In a morbid way that is true: it was Anakin, not Vader, who threw Palpatine to the Death Star's reactor shaft (at least Yoda would view it as such), for Luke's selfless act of refusing to kill Vader and bow down to the Emperor and Emperor's reaction prompted Vader to let go of his own, inner darkness.

The two Jedi Masters might have truly believed by that point that Anakin was the Chosen One because his death would bring back the balance (for so far his actions had definetely not done so). Fortunately for the galaxy at large, Luke decided otherwise. It is sort of ironic that the very thing that finally drew Anakin over to the dark side, his deep capacity for love and desire to keep his loved ones safe from harm, also redeemed him. But it was buried deep, indeed, since Palpatine (nor, it seems to me, Anakin's former teachers) did not sense such a possibility. It adds to Vader's tragedy (and his eventual redemption) that the one defining trait of his was buried so deep that even he had forgotten it and everyone had discarded it as a possibility - save for the one person who by all right should view Vader as a complete, irredeemable and utter monster.

[Havok]

I would disagree with this. Yoda and Obi-Wan spent the next 20 years meditating and thinking on the situation and communing with Qui-Gon. If they didn't have a sense that Vader could be redeemed, I don't think they would have even bothered with training Luke. Assuming of course that they still believed in the Prophecy of the Chosen one, which I think is highly probable since Qui-Gon strongly believed in it.

Even if Qui-Gon did, it seems that Obi-wan, at least, adamantly insisted that Luke had to kill Vader.

No he didn't.

Ben: "You must face Darth Vader again."
Luke: "I can't do it Ben. I can't kill my own father."
Ben: "Then, the Emperor has already won."

The important thing is that Luke face him with the ability and will to kill him. Not that he actually do it. Basically Luke has to go in to the situation with all avenues open, or all is lost. Like Knife said in the Invisible Hand scene being reminiscent of the DSII scene and vice versa. The choice has to be available and this time the right choice needs to be made.

Perhaps they believed they were wrong about the Chosen One, or perhaps they believed the prophecy could be fulfilled in a roundabout way, through the Chosen One's son. Or perhaps they believed that the Prophecy was misinterperated. Doesn't Yoda say as much in Episode 3? Plenty of fans have speculated that "bring balance to the Force" actually meant killing the Jedi, right? Isn't it possible that a similar thought occured to Yoda and Obi-wan? That the prophecy had a different meaning from what they had initially believed?

Yoda does indeed say that, but don't forget to take into account how unfocused and fucked up the situation was at that point. Palpatine was doing every thing he could to keep the Jedi of balance. And to think he wasn't aware of the Prophecy and that Anakin could very well be his undoing just as easily as his apprentice and to assume he was not doing everything he could to dissuade the Jedi from believing in Anakin is folly.

As far as what fans have speculated, GL said straight out that Anakin was The Chosen One and only he could destroy Palpatine and it is that act which would bring balance to the Force.

Anakin will bring balance to the Force, at this point it was going to be by being redeemed by his son and destroying the Sith, instead of at the point in ROTS, where he killed Dooku, but made the wrong decision in regards to Palpatine.

While its possible that Obi-wan and Yoda foresaw and planned for all the events of the OT, I think it questionable that they planned this. Isn't the simplest explanation that they fully intended for Luke to kill Vader (at least Kenobi did), but that Luke than threw a wrench into the plans by going off in his own direction and doing something they had not planned for or anticipated?

No, the simplest solution is that they gave Luke the tools he needed, Yoda the physical and mental tools on Dagobah, and Obi-Wan the guidance and info he needed when he needed it, and left the ultimate choice in the hands of Luke and the Force, which again, goes along with Qui-Gon's way of viewing things. I think this is why Yoda and Obi-Wan never attempted anything themselves. They didn't have the real belief that Anakin was redeemable, while they knew that Luke did and they realized their ways were over and simply killing Vader wasn't the answer as neither of them could then defeat the Emperor.

Just killing Vader does nothing to bring down Palpatine and bring balance to the Force and it leads Luke down the exact path that they wanted him to avoid.

P.S. I love slow Saturdays at the bike shop.

[Havok]

I'd think that one possibility is that they [Yoda & Obi-Wan Kenobi] still considered Anakin Skywalker to be the Chosen One, but to fulfill the prophecy and to restore the balance of the Force Anakin's offspring would have to confront him. They could still believe in the prophecy and in the idea of Anakin as the Chosen One, but they might reject the idea that Anakin would have to be on the Jedi's side or even an active participant at all. That doesn't require Vader to be redeemeable.

I have to disagree. I think that absolutely requires Anakin to be redeemable. Nothing is gained by Vader simply turning on Palpatine, if he is not going to either be destroyed himself, or turn away from the Dark. You go from one ruthless Emperor to another. I suppose you could say that Luke could join with Vader, dethrone the Emperor, then kill Vader, but again, that leaves you with another possible Emperor.

Which might, according to that theory of mine, be their ultimate goal: not that the Sith theocracy would continue, but that Vader being destroyed would bring about the balance of the Force. Which does leave open the fate of Darth Sidious, although they might have figured out that Vader's destruction would somehow defeat Sidious, as well, since the balance would have been restored (apparently the prophecy was quite murky to begin with, since there was so much doubt about it among the Jedi Council and the Order itself). In a morbid way that is true: it was Anakin, not Vader, who threw Palpatine to the Death Star's reactor shaft (at least Yoda would view it as such), for Luke's selfless act of refusing to kill Vader and bow down to the Emperor and Emperor's reaction prompted Vader to let go of his own, inner darkness.

You are certainly more well versed than I am, but I was under the impression that it was Palpatine that was the cause of the imbalance, or whichever Sith Lord Master is occupying the title and not Anakin. I mean, the imbalance was there while Dooku and Maul were both Sith Lords, so Anakin being a Sith Lord should have no bearing on it. The fact that there is Sith at all is what is causing the imbalance.

I'm also not seeing how you make the jump that Vader Death = Palpatine Death.
The likely scenarios are, when death is involved:
Vader win. Kills Luke. SNAFU.
Luke win, kills Vader, Palpatine kills Luke. SNAFU.
Luke win, kills Vader, takes Vader's place. SNAFU.
Luke joins Vader, kill Palpatine. SNAFU.
Luke joins Vader, Palpatine kills both. SNAFU.
Luke and Vader kill each other. SNAFU

Now when you have the redemption option:
Luke redeems Vader. Luke and Vader kill Palpatine. Good.
Luke redeems Vader. Palpatine kills Vader then Luke. SNAFU.
Luke redeems Vader. Palpatine kills Luke. Vader kills Palpatine. Toss Up.
Luke redeems Vader. Palpatine tries to kill Luke, Vader kills Palpatine. Good. (What happened)

(I may have missed some)
So at least with the option of redemption, you have some good outcomes, including the one that fulfills the Prophecy which is also the one the Force wants.

The two Jedi Masters might have truly believed by that point that Anakin was the Chosen One because his death would bring back the balance (for so far his actions had definetely not done so). Fortunately for the galaxy at large, Luke decided otherwise. It is sort of ironic that the very thing that finally drew Anakin over to the dark side, his deep capacity for love and desire to keep his loved ones safe from harm, also redeemed him. But it was buried deep, indeed, since Palpatine (nor, it seems to me, Anakin's former teachers) did not sense such a possibility. It adds to Vader's tragedy (and his eventual redemption) that the one defining trait of his was buried so deep that even he had forgotten it and everyone had discarded it as a possibility - save for the one person who by all right should view Vader as a complete, irredeemable and utter monster.

I agree with most of that, but again, I'm not seeing where you are getting that Vader's death is going to bring balance, when he was not the issue when it comes to the balance, and as I said above, where is the connection to Vader's death and Palpatine's defeat?

[Tiriol]

I have to disagree. I think that absolutely requires Anakin to be redeemable. Nothing is gained by Vader simply turning on Palpatine, if he is not going to either be destroyed himself, or turn away from the Dark. You go from one ruthless Emperor to another. I suppose you could say that Luke could join with Vader, dethrone the Emperor, then kill Vader, but again, that leaves you with another possible Emperor.

Which might, according to that theory of mine, be their ultimate goal: not that the Sith theocracy would continue, but that Vader being destroyed would bring about the balance of the Force. Which does leave open the fate of Darth Sidious, although they might have figured out that Vader's destruction would somehow defeat Sidious, as well, since the balance would have been restored (apparently the prophecy was quite murky to begin with, since there was so much doubt about it among the Jedi Council and the Order itself). In a morbid way that is true: it was Anakin, not Vader, who threw Palpatine to the Death Star's reactor shaft (at least Yoda would view it as such), for Luke's selfless act of refusing to kill Vader and bow down to the Emperor and Emperor's reaction prompted Vader to let go of his own, inner darkness.

You are certainly more well versed than I am, but I was under the impression that it was Palpatine that was the cause of the imbalance, or whichever Sith Lord Master is occupying the title and not Anakin. I mean, the imbalance was there while Dooku and Maul were both Sith Lords, so Anakin being a Sith Lord should have no bearing on it. The fact that there is Sith at all is what is causing the imbalance.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that Anakin Skywalker caused the imbalance (although his fateful decision to join the Sith didn't help matters at all; notice how Yoda reacted immediately after Anakin swore allegiance to the Order of the Dark Lords of the Sith). I meant that Kenobi and Yoda might have changed their view of the Chosen One's function: instead of an active participant in the restoration of balance, he would act as catalyst for that restoration.

I'm also not seeing how you make the jump that Vader Death = Palpatine Death.
The likely scenarios are, when death is involved:
Vader win. Kills Luke. SNAFU.
Luke win, kills Vader, Palpatine kills Luke. SNAFU.
Luke win, kills Vader, takes Vader's place. SNAFU.
Luke joins Vader, kill Palpatine. SNAFU.
Luke joins Vader, Palpatine kills both. SNAFU.
Luke and Vader kill each other. SNAFU

Now when you have the redemption option:
Luke redeems Vader. Luke and Vader kill Palpatine. Good.
Luke redeems Vader. Palpatine kills Vader then Luke. SNAFU.
Luke redeems Vader. Palpatine kills Luke. Vader kills Palpatine. Toss Up.
Luke redeems Vader. Palpatine tries to kill Luke, Vader kills Palpatine. Good. (What happened)

(I may have missed some)
So at least with the option of redemption, you have some good outcomes, including the one that fulfills the Prophecy which is also the one the Force wants.

I must admit that my theory has the flaw that it leaves Palpatine out of equasion (and the Sith in particular and the dark side in general are indeed, as you pointed out, the cause of the imbalance). This is it's biggest and most notable flaw. Certainly the Jedi didn't urge Luke to kill Vader out of spite or some sort of petty vengeance against the Sith; however, I hold the view that they believed to some extent that by confronting Vader (most likely in a lethal way) and triumphing Luke would defeat the Sith, at least at some spiritual level which would be important enough to reverse the progress of imbalance - or that the Chosen One's bloodline was the important factor of bringing balance to the Force.

The two Jedi Masters might have truly believed by that point that Anakin was the Chosen One because his death would bring back the balance (for so far his actions had definetely not done so). Fortunately for the galaxy at large, Luke decided otherwise. It is sort of ironic that the very thing that finally drew Anakin over to the dark side, his deep capacity for love and desire to keep his loved ones safe from harm, also redeemed him. But it was buried deep, indeed, since Palpatine (nor, it seems to me, Anakin's former teachers) did not sense such a possibility. It adds to Vader's tragedy (and his eventual redemption) that the one defining trait of his was buried so deep that even he had forgotten it and everyone had discarded it as a possibility - save for the one person who by all right should view Vader as a complete, irredeemable and utter monster.

I agree with most of that, but again, I'm not seeing where you are getting that Vader's death is going to bring balance, when he was not the issue when it comes to the balance, and as I said above, where is the connection to Vader's death and Palpatine's defeat?

As noted above, my theory does have this gaping flaw. I constructed it based on what Obi-Wan Kenobi told Luke Skywalker when they met at Dagobah just after Yoda's death; and how Yoda treated the subject of Vader. They knew very well that both Sith had to be defeated or the imbalance would continue and that the tyranny of the dark side would remain. But clearly the Jedi Masters also seemed to think that Vader's defeat (or, at least confronting him) would be the deciding factor. Quite frankly, I'm willing to believe that they basically just figured out that Luke had to confront the evil that was his father and "let the will of the Force decide the rest". They didn't have a lot of options, besides training Leia, but they would have met same difficulties.

[Havok]

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that Anakin Skywalker caused the imbalance (although his fateful decision to join the Sith didn't help matters at all; notice how Yoda reacted immediately after Anakin swore allegiance to the Order of the Dark Lords of the Sith). I meant that Kenobi and Yoda might have changed their view of the Chosen One's function: instead of an active participant in the restoration of balance, he would act as catalyst for that restoration.

That makes more sense.

I'm also not seeing how you make the jump that Vader Death = Palpatine Death.
The likely scenarios are, when death is involved:
Vader win. Kills Luke. SNAFU.
Luke win, kills Vader, Palpatine kills Luke. SNAFU.
Luke win, kills Vader, takes Vader's place. SNAFU.
Luke joins Vader, kill Palpatine. SNAFU.
Luke joins Vader, Palpatine kills both. SNAFU.
Luke and Vader kill each other. SNAFU

Now when you have the redemption option:
Luke redeems Vader. Luke and Vader kill Palpatine. Good.
Luke redeems Vader. Palpatine kills Vader then Luke. SNAFU.
Luke redeems Vader. Palpatine kills Luke. Vader kills Palpatine. Toss Up.
Luke redeems Vader. Palpatine tries to kill Luke, Vader kills Palpatine. Good. (What happened)

(I may have missed some)
So at least with the option of redemption, you have some good outcomes, including the one that fulfills the Prophecy which is also the one the Force wants.

I must admit that my theory has the flaw that it leaves Palpatine out of equasion (and the Sith in particular and the dark side in general are indeed, as you pointed out, the cause of the imbalance). This is it's biggest and most notable flaw. Certainly the Jedi didn't urge Luke to kill Vader out of spite or some sort of petty vengeance against the Sith; however, I hold the view that they believed to some extent that by confronting Vader (most likely in a lethal way) and triumphing Luke would defeat the Sith, at least at some spiritual level which would be important enough to reverse the progress of imbalance - or that the Chosen One's bloodline was the important factor of bringing balance to the Force.

That's a pretty big flaw man.
I am of the mind that Obi-Wan and especially Yoda, who's ability to see the future was not completely hampered, had an inclining of the outcome of what was to actually be, was a distinct possibility. However, I will concede that they probably didn't know/realize this until shortly, or even during, the events of ROTJ.

The two Jedi Masters might have truly believed by that point that Anakin was the Chosen One because his death would bring back the balance (for so far his actions had definetely not done so). Fortunately for the galaxy at large, Luke decided otherwise. It is sort of ironic that the very thing that finally drew Anakin over to the dark side, his deep capacity for love and desire to keep his loved ones safe from harm, also redeemed him. But it was buried deep, indeed, since Palpatine (nor, it seems to me, Anakin's former teachers) did not sense such a possibility. It adds to Vader's tragedy (and his eventual redemption) that the one defining trait of his was buried so deep that even he had forgotten it and everyone had discarded it as a possibility - save for the one person who by all right should view Vader as a complete, irredeemable and utter monster.

I agree with most of that, but again, I'm not seeing where you are getting that Vader's death is going to bring balance, when he was not the issue when it comes to the balance, and as I said above, where is the connection to Vader's death and Palpatine's defeat?

As noted above, my theory does have this gaping flaw. I constructed it based on what Obi-Wan Kenobi told Luke Skywalker when they met at Dagobah just after Yoda's death; and how Yoda treated the subject of Vader. They knew very well that both Sith had to be defeated or the imbalance would continue and that the tyranny of the dark side would remain. But clearly the Jedi Masters also seemed to think that Vader's defeat (or, at least confronting him) would be the deciding factor. Quite frankly, I'm willing to believe that they basically just figured out that Luke had to confront the evil that was his father and "let the will of the Force decide the rest". They didn't have a lot of options, besides training Leia, but they would have met same difficulties.

Concerning Obi-Wan and Yoda and what they told Luke about Vader you have to look at what was said and the circumstances.

Obi-Wan: "You MUST NOT GO!" TESB, pleading with Luke to stay and finish his training and not confront Vader.

Yoda: "Not ready for the burden were you." This in ROTJ, which Luke readily acknowledges and apologizes for.

Which I take to mean, that telling a young Padawan in training, who is already full of emotion, anger and is head strong, that his pops is the second most evil and hated man in the galaxy might not be a good idea. Luke, in rushing off to confront Vader, proved that point as he almost got himself killed and doomed the whole galaxy to Sith rule for probably millennia. Keep in mind he didn't know about Leia at the time and did in fact think he was the last hope and still ran off without finishing his training, which makes it even worse.

The way Ben and Yoda handled the Vader Situation was probably the best course of action.

[Knife]

Oh for crying out loud, it's not that hard. Palpatine was chaos, he swept the Old Republic which represented stagnation, out with a realitive quick strike. The Jedi were stagnate too, to connected to the Republic to be redeemed, too arogant to be Light Side anymore. Palpatine by corrupting the 'Chosen One' turned the scales from the Light Side (which one could argue was actually grey at the moment due to Jedi and Republic stagnation) to the Dark Side.

Chaos changed stagnate order into change, as was needed.

In corrupting the 'Chosen One' Palpatine sowed the seeds of his demise. Anakin's destiny was to kill Palpatine but not before the Emperor could enact the change that rolled back the corruption of the Republic and Jedi. Once all the scales were balanced, you have to get rid of the agent of change before the scales tipped too far the other way. Hence Anakin. It took Luke, his son, to redeem Vader after the Force had accomplished what it needed, for Anakin to kill off the agent of change.

Cure for the cure, that is Anakin. Luke was the cofactor. Really, it is not that hard.

[Turin]

I think there's one element that's missing in this discussion. Luke says to Palpatine that he's won, that he hasn't been turned to the Dark Side. But at that point in time, Luke also believed that the Alliance was going to destroy the Death Star and that he, Vader, and Palapatine would soon be dead -- which meant that the entire battle between the Light and Dark was meaningless. Unless, that is, you assume that the whole idea of bringing balance is in some kind of metaphysical sense rather than in the sense of "there are N number of Darksiders and 2N number of Lightsiders remaining." If Luke thought this, which seems to be the case, then maybe that was Yoda and Obi-wan's plan all along.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think there's one element that's missing in this discussion. Luke says to Palpatine that he's won, that he hasn't been turned to the Dark Side. But at that point in time, Luke also believed that the Alliance was going to destroy the Death Star and that he, Vader, and Palapatine would soon be dead -- which meant that the entire battle between the Light and Dark was meaningless. Unless, that is, you assume that the whole idea of bringing balance is in some kind of metaphysical sense rather than in the sense of "there are N number of Darksiders and 2N number of Lightsiders remaining." If Luke thought this, which seems to be the case, then maybe that was Yoda and Obi-wan's plan all along.

I don't know, I guess I just assumed it was Luke saying that Palpatine had failed to turn him. At that point Luke probably expected to die one way or another. I'm inclined to treat it as Luke claiming a personal/moral victory, nothing more. Though he might have sensed on some level that the balance had tipped in his favor.

Oh, and they're playing Jedi on the TV tonight. Maybe I'll watch the end and see if I get any more ideas about this.

[Galvatron]

I think there's one element that's missing in this discussion. Luke says to Palpatine that he's won, that he hasn't been turned to the Dark Side. But at that point in time, Luke also believed that the Alliance was going to destroy the Death Star and that he, Vader, and Palapatine would soon be dead

No, he didn't...

"Your fleet is lost. And your friends on the Endor moon will not survive. There is no escape, my young apprentice. The Alliance will die...as will your friends."

He had no reason to believe the Alliance was going to succeed in destroying the Death Star at that point. That's why he attacked Palpatine in the first place.

[Knife]

Indeed, he lost his temper and attacked because of Palpatine's gloating and the obvious battle in front of him. I think he told Palpatine he had failed mostly because just because he lost his temper and attacked the Emperor, and lost his temper and raged emotionally against Vader, he didn't succumb to the Dark Side. He skirted it a couple times, which made Palpatine egg him on about how his hate had made him powerful, and Luke saw where he was going, where Palpatine wanted him to go and didn't go there. Saw through the ruse, made his choice that Anakin didn't make twenty years ago.

[Galvatron]

As far as ruses go, the one in ROTS made a lot more sense to me. Palpatine was able to lure Anakin to the dark side with the promise of forbidden knowledge that would save Padme's life. In ROTJ, what incentive did he offer Luke? Power? He should have offered to call off the Imperial fleet and let the rebels escape with their lives in exchange for Luke's servitude.

[Havok]

As far as ruses go, the one in ROTS made a lot more sense to me. Palpatine was able to lure Anakin to the dark side with the promise of forbidden knowledge that would save Padme's life. In ROTJ, what incentive did he offer Luke? Power? He should have offered to call off the Imperial fleet and let the rebels escape with their lives in exchange for Luke's servitude.

I'm not sure if that would have worked. Palpatine had 10 years to influence and corrupt and steer Anakin to the exact moment he wanted him to be at, he didn't have that option with Luke. Also at that point, Anakin still was confused with what was going on, and was still harboring feelings of betrayal toward the Jedi as well as still harboring his fatherly feelings towards Palpatine. Whereas Luke knew Palpatine to be true evil and had no misconceptions of what he was and what he would turn Luke into. Just offering to save the Rebel fleet at Endor was not enough to justify another Darth Vader, especially for Luke who had the utmost faith in Han, Chewie, Leia, R2, 3PO and Lando.

[Galvatron]

This is the same Luke who risked it all to save Han and Leia at Bespin. And they were in peril on Endor's surface as well.

[Havok]

This is the same Luke who risked it all to save Han and Leia at Bespin. And they were in peril on Endor's surface as well.

Yeah, and as I said earlier, he acknowledged that as a mistake and realized that his destiny was to keep the fires of the Jedi Order burning long enough to defeat the Sith first and foremost and if he could, pass on what he had learned, and that those two things were more important than anything else.

[Galvatron]

There's no reason to believe he learned his lesson from that fiasco given the fact that he surrendered to Vader to protect the others and then voluntarily boarded the Death Star believing it would be destroyed by the rebel fleet. So much for the return of the Jedi, eh?

[Tiriol]

There's no reason to believe he learned his lesson from that fiasco given the fact that he surrendered to Vader to protect the others and then voluntarily boarded the Death Star believing it would be destroyed by the rebel fleet. So much for the return of the Jedi, eh?

There is also the little thing that Luke believed there was some good left in Vader. He had learned the consequences of rash actions, but that didn't stop him from trying to reach out to Vader.

[Havok]

First, sorry, 'cause I was still editing my post while you were posting.

There's no reason to believe he learned his lesson from that fiasco given the fact that he surrendered to Vader to protect the others and then voluntarily boarded the Death Star believing it would be destroyed by the rebel fleet. So much for the return of the Jedi, eh?

He surrendered to Vader so that the mission could go on as planned because he had become a liability as a Rebel and was now a Jedi. The Rebel mission of destroying the DS and Palpatine was just as important as his mission to face Vader and defeat him, but him staying with them would have brought Vader straight to them. His surrendering gave Han and Leia the time they needed and served his own purpose of getting on last attempt to redeem his father and plant the seeds of his betrayal of Palpatine. Mission accomplished.

[Galvatron]

What good are the seeds of betrayal going to do on the Death Star? Remember, Luke thought the battlestation was doomed and figured they were all dead men the moment he and Vader set foot on board. He had abandoned his hopes for Vader when they were still on Endor.

Also, Luke banked the future of the Alliance and the Jedi on Leia. If he and his sister were both dead, what hope would the galaxy have then?

[Havok]

What good are the seeds of betrayal going to do on the Death Star?

He was trying one last time to reach his father before he got to the DS, and if you don't think that "Then my father is truly dead." isn't a giant mind fuck on Vader for future use, then you weren't paying attention.

Remember, Luke thought the battlestation was doomed and figured they were all dead men the moment he and Vader set foot on board. He had abandoned his hopes for Vader when they were still on Endor.

He wasn't going to leave their defeat to chance. I don't know what exactly Luke was planning exactly, possibly that he would simply stall Vader and Palpatine until the DS was destroyed, or if he thought that he would engage them both in combat, but I am sure he was still counting on his father, which he was still doing in their lightsaber dual in the throne room.

Also, Luke banked the future of the Alliance and the Jedi on Leia. If he and his sister were both dead, what hope would the galaxy have then?

None, and he knew that, which was why he bought them time by just turning himself in and keeping Vader's focus of them. Like I said, he had unshakable faith in his friends and in that situation it was faith that Han would make sure Leia survived whatever would happen.

[Turin]

I think there's one element that's missing in this discussion. Luke says to Palpatine that he's won, that he hasn't been turned to the Dark Side. But at that point in time, Luke also believed that the Alliance was going to destroy the Death Star and that he, Vader, and Palapatine would soon be dead

No, he didn't...

"Your fleet is lost. And your friends on the Endor moon will not survive. There is no escape, my young apprentice. The Alliance will die...as will your friends."

He had no reason to believe the Alliance was going to succeed in destroying the Death Star at that point. That's why he attacked Palpatine in the first place.

That moment of doubt wasn't in the original plan, obviously. In the greater context, I think of that moment being "fear leads to hate, etc" -- that is, a moment where his faith in his friends falters just enough that he's on the edge of being turned to the Dark Side. Once he defeats Vader (and, simultaneously, avoids being turned), he's back on track for his original plan. Luke knows he's a liability to the Rebel's mission, as has been pointed out. Surrendering to Vader makes sense from that perspective. But why go through all the trouble of trying to turn back Vader if he doesn't think it makes a difference in some way (as I'm arguing, a metaphysical way), if he thinks he's going to be killed along with Vader and the Emperor?