StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Galvatron wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:No I agree, but I don't know if I think the likely outcome is outright open defiance and spontaneous and overt rebellion galaxywide. I like Mike's idea that the Mon Cal government played ball (like most) but was a Rebel supporter with plausible deniability and like its brethren, looking for an opportune moment. Hence why the Rebellion could count on so much in-built support as soon as the Empire went into a political crisis.

That's kinda what I meant. I don't imagine that the Mon Cal government or their Imperial Senator openly defied the Empire prior to ANH any more than, say, Bail Organa did. I expect they were far more judicious than that and politely declined to disarm their forces and it was these entrenched regional militaries that the Death Star was intended to deal with so the starfleet wouldn't have to.

I disagree there. Most people seem to think the Death Star is some jack-of-all-trades, do-anything, beat-anything weapon of war. But it will suffer from its own scaled up logistical problems. I shutter thinking of the supply train and its vulnerabilities. What the Death Star was was a revolutionary siege weapon which, coupled with the centralized and authoritarian control of an expanded peacetime conventional security and defense apparatus and the radical reforms of the state, would make the political transition from republicanism permanent.

I didn't mean to suggest that it would replace the fleet, just that it would be used in those situations where the Empire would be otherwise faced with a more costly siege via conventional weapons. After all, I doubt the starfleet would find it very easy to take on a fortress world defended by a local fleet, a strong planetary shield and surface-to-space ion cannons. The Death Star could do so with relative impunity.

Galvatron wrote:I didn't mean to suggest that it would replace the fleet, just that it would be used in those situations where the Empire would be otherwise faced with a more costly siege via conventional weapons. After all, I doubt the starfleet would find it very easy to take on a fortress world defended by a local fleet, a strong planetary shield and surface-to-space ion cannons. The Death Star could do so with relative impunity.

Right. I imagine that the authoritarians were worried about the prospect of a future civil war for control between the authoritarians and the republicans, and that their political take-over would not be a fiat accompli until they had something that could effortlessly crack the republicans' Maginot Line of fortress systems (especially if the Outer Rim Sieges left a strong impression on the warfighting class).

Bingo. You now see exactly where I'm coming from on all this.

I imagine that in the wake of the Battle of Yavin, quite a few of these fortress systems began to openly defy Imperial rule knowing full well that they could resist the starfleet even if they didn't formally join or support the Rebel Alliance proper. The Mon Cal are one such species that I can see as having been sympathetic and supportive to Alliance yet unwilling to commit a significant portion of their vast resources to the cause until they were told that a new Death Star was being constructed. That forced their hand because they knew Dac would be the next Alderaan if it were ever completed.

With regards to the Mon Cal fleet, what about the possibility that the Mon Cal cruisers were Clone war era cruisers decomissioned after the transition from Republic to Empire?

For at least some of them, pretty good. We know the Mon Cal contributed at least one capital ship, but frankly I don't think the Republic would both fielding just one ship with a unique set of logistical requirements; the Mon Cal would have to put forth a sizable number of vessels for the contribution to the worth it. However, the idea that these ships survived the rise of the Empire is problematic, as I doubt the New Order would be happy with an powerful fleet of unique cruisers in the hands of an alien race. That likely had something to do with the occupation of Dac, actually.

Seems to me more likely that the vessels present at Endor were built on Clone Wars-era designs, called starliners (Mon Cal ships don't really look much like warships to your average Imperial rubber-stamper anyway) and later had the "finishing touches" of turbolasers mounted.

open_sketchbook wrote:For at least some of them, pretty good. We know the Mon Cal contributed at least one capital ship, but frankly I don't think the Republic would both fielding just one ship with a unique set of logistical requirements; the Mon Cal would have to put forth a sizable number of vessels for the contribution to the worth it. However, the idea that these ships survived the rise of the Empire is problematic, as I doubt the New Order would be happy with an powerful fleet of unique cruisers in the hands of an alien race. That likely had something to do with the occupation of Dac, actually.

Seems to me more likely that the vessels present at Endor were built on Clone Wars-era designs, called starliners (Mon Cal ships don't really look much like warships to your average Imperial rubber-stamper anyway) and later had the "finishing touches" of turbolasers mounted.

Except for the idiocy of saying, built as a liner and then add weapons *wink wink*. As if that's all it takes, instead of structural reinforcements for the mass of the turbolaser and the bracers for the stress of firing them. Instead of the dedicated power lines, and/or dedicated reactors or other power sources to power the guns. Instead of the added reinforcement to the structure for those power systems, instead of the added structures for the added engines to manuver in combat and the all that entails.

This goofy notion of just building the Love Boat class Starship and then strapping on some guns is asinine.

Would it be possible to build them with the intent to convert them to warships? Have all the structure, armor, and engines built in and put in a few decks of liner cabins during construction. Then during refit, rip the cabins out and install hangers, weapons and shields when the time comes for war?

I can actually see a marketing angle for that: Strong enough that you know you'll get there, fast enough to get there on time.

You might even be able to get away with some weapons, by saying its for anti-piracy.

Jason L. Miles wrote:Would it be possible to build them with the intent to convert them to warships? Have all the structure, armor, and engines built in and put in a few decks of liner cabins during construction. Then during refit, rip the cabins out and install hangers, weapons and shields when the time comes for war?

I can actually see a marketing angle for that: Strong enough that you know you'll get there, fast enough to get there on time.

You might even be able to get away with some weapons, by saying its for anti-piracy.

From that starting point, it would make more sense to say the hulls were left over from when they were part of the CIS, and they just furnished the warships to be liners. GCW breaks out, reconvert them back to warships.

What I was trying to say were that the ships were built with the intent of being able to quickly be converted to warships, with the internal structure and power grid already in place to support a quick conversion into a warship, then hidden behind the trappings of a cruise liner, giving the Mon Cal a hidden fleet the could activate with little effort.

open_sketchbook wrote:What I was trying to say were that the ships were built with the intent of being able to quickly be converted to warships, with the internal structure and power grid already in place to support a quick conversion into a warship, then hidden behind the trappings of a cruise liner, giving the Mon Cal a hidden fleet the could activate with little effort.

Although there are many points of view here I agree with, I would personally go with this one and ones like it. When you are building hundreds of ships for the private sector or commercial uses, it would be easy to lose extra materials that could reinforce and Armor a ship. If you get unlucky and someone inspects that ship before it is "stolen" and asks about it just blame it on a "conflict of artistic vision"

My personal explanation - about 60 years before the Empire is declared Dac hits a sufficiently advanced level that the Old Republic makes contact. The Mon Cals are in possession of an extensive orbital infrastructure for the construction of starships and sustaining themselves, but it is below galactic standard. So they begin the process of upgrading, replacing, and constructing the new things they need to get up to par. This ongoing process means that ships are slightly different from each other, as each newer one has more upgraded technology in it. Hence the fact that each is different from each other, not "artistic" but "behind". Each successive type is named after the years after contact that they were commissioned. As they get more and more up to standard, they are able to build bigger and bigger ships. Hence why you have MC 30, MC 80, MC 90, etc and why the lower numbers are smaller and weaker. Clone Wars break out. Separatist movement finds a strong haven among those on Dac who have not benefited as much from contact and wish to return to the old ways", and those who think they will advance faster with the aid of the Techno Union and similar entities. They throw their weight behind the CIS and start building ships. Civil War on Dac, CIS tossed out, trashes the shipyards on their way out. Mon Cals finish what warships they have left as "luxury liners", and sell them off. Empire takes over, starts rebuilding. Mon Cals revolt. Empire says fine, screw you, trashes the place again and leaves, figuring that since the place is a trashed backwards hellhole with no military, who cares? (Note similarity to Afghanistan here). Rebels move in, cu a deal to help Mon Cals rebuild in exchange for military might. Mon Cals give rebels control codes to let them seize control of sold off ships. Keeps their fins clean and leads to more of the idea that the rebels are pirates, while at the same time helping fund the alliance when they do rob the ships they stole. The rebels start rebuoilding the hellhole and the Mon Cals use the new infrastructure to convert the ex warships back into warships. In return for this aid, Mon Cals fully back the Rebel Alliance in their guerrilla actions against the Empire (again, Afghanistan comparison). Rebels win, resume rebuilding/upgrading Dac, 125 years later it is a place on par with the major yards of the core.\

THis harmonizes the bulk of the info out there on mon cal cruisers and their design history.

Count Dooku regarded the world as "sophisticated" as the yards at Fondor or Gyndine and tried to get them to join the Separatists. He also used the Dark Reaper weapon on the world. The CIS apparently thought the shipyard technology worth while stealing as well.

Indeed. They stand up to the galactic standard, so they obviously are the galactic standard. Best case, they are the Republic as much as Naboo, or Corellia or Kuat. They make ships that aren't as popular as Kuat, and thus are not the *galactic* standard even though they are as close as it gets.

What if the Mon Cal fleet was built during the Clone Wars and then they just hid the fleet when they were told to disarm. I mean space is really really big and Dac is on the outer rim where you could just park a fleet power it down and no one would run into it.

Since the Mon Cals made contact only 4,000 years before Yavin, it's not inconceivable that their facilities and production was significantly less than Kuat's given that world's status as a Core Founder and steady supplier to the Republic military.

VT-16 wrote:Since the Mon Cals made contact only 4,000 years before Yavin, it's not inconceivable that their facilities and production was significantly less than Kuat's given that world's status as a Core Founder and steady supplier to the Republic military.

WHat's the source for 4000? I thought it was in the waning years of the OR, close enough that the empire could try propaganda that they discovered them

It's in the KOTOR comics and the Campaign Guide. They became a Republic member at some point around the Great Sith War. Which means the whole Imperial propaganda can only really be effective if the galaxy is so huge and filled with great civilizations and shipyards to make the Mon Cals truly marginal on all levels, despite being in control of a section of the galaxy itself.

VT-16 wrote:It's in the KOTOR comics and the Campaign Guide. They became a Republic member at some point around the Great Sith War. Which means the whole Imperial propaganda can only really be effective if the galaxy is so huge and filled with great civilizations and shipyards to make the Mon Cals truly marginal on all levels, despite being in control of a section of the galaxy itself.

I was talking about the "we discovered you, so you owe us!" part of the propaganda. Really hard to sell that when what you are claiming is a lie disproven by the past 4000 years.

Yeah, and the Campaign Guide even explicitly referred to Calamari servicemen in the Republic or something. It's stretching a bit, but might be used for ignorant yokels meant to enter the military and oblivious aristocrats in the Core. I mean, this is the Empire that managed to enslave a prominent Mid Rim species like the Wookiees, and hardly anyone batted an eye at that.