a strange new sector (40k rar)

[Shadowtraveler]

Or Orac.

*just finished watching Blake's 7*

[andrewgpaul]

Ok how do the Imperium view the difference between AI's and Machine Spirits. Considering the Machine Spirts in the Titans are pretty sophisticated.

I'm curious too. My only familiarity with 40k is what I read in the occasional thread here and the two times I visited a 40k wiki.

I thought the Imperium was pretty respectful of "machine spirits" and thought they were holy artifacts or something? They have AI of some sort in their giant walking cathedrals and oldest vehicles and vessels, don't they?

Why would AI be "heretical" and evil?

Titan machine spirits are an odd case, really. They do have a core 'personality' of an animal (mastiffs for Warhounds, grizzlies for Warlords) that handles the basic motor functions and low-level systems, but over that is the imprint of all the Princeps that have commanded the titan over the millennia.

[Serafina]

40K-AIs are odd.

But basically, none of them are independent: They assist the user/pilot/whatever and can do some stuff one their own, but any AI that could go "rogue" is forbidden.
E.G: The "machine spirit" of an Land Raider can take controll of the vehicle for a short time, can fire some weapons, stuff like that. It can NOT controll the vehicle for an extended amount of time or override any pilot command.

Titans are similar.

There are more or less independet machines, but those are not AIs and have pretty limited tasks.
A Servo skull follows its owner around and can follow direct commands, but thats it.
Some library machines have sophisticated search routines, can create their own hyperlinks, communicate with the user and other stuff - but basically, they are just improved google.

Mankind once had strong, independet AIs: The Iron Men.
Those could fight entire wars on their own, including clever tactics and strategys, build factories, had a society structure and so on.
But they turned against their masters and, well, the rest is history.
They are the reason AIs are forbidden.

[andrewgpaul]

It can NOT control the vehicle for an extended amount of time

I remember an article in White Dwarf years back (around the time the new kit came out, I think) about famous Land Raiders. Including one which was abandoned when it got stuck in a swamp. It survived for years, and eventually made its way back to Imperial lines.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

The actual game rules on this changed a lot.

At the time when that kit and that fluff came out (early '90's?) it was possible to equip a vehicle with Autodrive, Autosystems and Autoaim, all of which were explicitly described as crew- substitute packages. A Land Raider could, by the rules then, function with no crew on board at all, to the full extent of it's normal abilities.

That was several retcons ago, though. My theory here is that the use of advanced autosystems like that was a Heresy-era expedient to free up men for the line, like war-droids the lesser evil under the circumstances, and abandoned as soon as possible after the urgent need for them was over- about five seconds after the retreat intothe Eye of Terror probably.

[andrewgpaul]

The first Land Raider kit came out in the late 80s, I think. The story I'm referring to was this century, though; around the release of the current kit. Not something that's been since retconned.

[EarthScorpion]

Ok how do the Imperium view the difference between AI's and Machine Spirits. Considering the Machine Spirts in the Titans are pretty sophisticated.

As is typical for religion, the definition of a Machine Spirit (as opposed to an Abominable Intelligence) is somewhat tautological.

A Machine Spirit is a holy tool of the Omnissiah, designed, built and consecrated by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Now, obviously, loyal members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would never construct an AI, as they are evil, and thus this must be a Machine Spirit. If they built an AI, then it would be heresy, and the AdMech would never condone widespread heresy. Therefore, it isn't one. Now, if some hereteks not part of the AdMech tried it, then they'd be profaning the Omnissiah and researching forbidden Abominations.

Basically, the things that Machine Spirits aren't allowed to do is to appear to think for themselves at more than an animalistic level without incorporating enough human brain material that you can justify it as an extension of a servitor or a Tech-Priest. Of course it's sophistry, but it does maintain the AdMech monopoly on advanced technology. And in the end, that's what matters to them.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I heard someone say that the current edition Land Raiders can function atonomusly....

Still I bet they would freak if one acted like Durandal, or you standard issue Bolo, much less a SHODAN/HAL type, and a run in with say R. Daniel type would probably result in much blasting, as would a Wintermute/Neuromancer type.

[Teleros]

Yes Land Raiders can function autonomously, usually though only when the crew is dead / incapacitated though. I believe the latest Space Marine codex has a short blurb on one running amok behind enemy lines whilst on auto-pilot.

[Cykeisme]

Yes Land Raiders can function autonomously, usually though only when the crew is dead / incapacitated though. I believe the latest Space Marine codex has a short blurb on one running amok behind enemy lines whilst on auto-pilot.

Hmm.. it ran amok at whose expense?

[The Yosemite Bear]

If it's a landraider or or Bolo running amok behind the enemy's lines, it's obviously at the enemy's expense.

[Teleros]

The machine spirit allows teh tank to function with a smaller number of crew than comparable vehicles, and is capable of taking control of engines, weaponry or other systems as the situation permits. Indeed, the Crimson Fists tell that the uncrewed Land Raider Rynn's Might, narrowly surviving the missile that levelled their fortress monastery, immediately thereafter fought a solo war against a rampaging Ork warband, killing the Warboss and many of his followers in a night of slaughter. Rynn's Might did not survive the encounter, but its example serves as a remind that a Land Raider is not a machine to be taken lightly, whether it be served by crew or no.