BadAstronomy tackles nuTrek (spoilers)

[Batman]

Not that there's any evidence for Genesis creating a STAR that I can remember.

Then where does the star at the end of the movie come from? Don't tell me that the local star had a nebula hanging out in its habitable zone.

It DID, what with the E-Nil being able to limp into it in a matter of minutes on partial impulse power.

[Junghalli]

Something that occurs to me: wouldn't throwing a black hole into a star to stop it from going supernova likely trigger the supernova instead.

IIRC, a star is held at an equilibrium between gravity holding it together and radiation pressure from the core trying to tear it apart. A supernova is what happens when the inner core gets so hot and puts out so much energy that the equilibrium is broken and the star's gravity can't hold it together anymore. Well, when you drop a black hole into the star's core it's going to start sucking stuff in, and that's going to draw more matter toward the core, and that's going to result in heat, and also going to result in the core gasses getting denser and hence fusion proceeding more easily. Wouldn't this approach likely result in prematurely triggering the supernova instead of preventing it?

[avatarxprime]

IIRC, a star is held at an equilibrium between gravity holding it together and radiation pressure from the core trying to tear it apart. A supernova is what happens when the inner core gets so hot and puts out so much energy that the equilibrium is broken and the star's gravity can't hold it together anymore. Well, when you drop a black hole into the star's core it's going to start sucking stuff in, and that's going to draw more matter toward the core, and that's going to result in heat, and also going to result in the core gasses getting denser and hence fusion proceeding more easily. Wouldn't this approach likely result in prematurely triggering the supernova instead of preventing it?

Yes and no. A supernova happens either when a star rapidly begins or ceases nuclear fusion. In the case of a star like the Hobus we're talking about a collapse of the fusion reaction. The star is no longer fighting gravity, which compresses the heavier elements it has been producing and generates heat (often resparking fusion to a limited extent). The core of the star then implodes with the resulting force driving the outer layers of the star out. If a star is massive enough it can leave a black hole behind rather than a white dwarf or neutron star, although those explosions are usually labelled hypernovae. I imagine the rational for dropping a black hole inside the star was that it would swallow enough matter to disrupt the fusion reaction. Then the accumulated matter in its accretion disk would take matter away from the core and the energy radiating out from the black hole's jets would disrupt the core further by blowing gas away. It seems like an awfully iffy solution to me with a rather large chance of failing spectacularly.

[Patrick Degan]

Something that occurs to me: wouldn't throwing a black hole into a star to stop it from going supernova likely trigger the supernova instead.

IIRC, a star is held at an equilibrium between gravity holding it together and radiation pressure from the core trying to tear it apart. A supernova is what happens when the inner core gets so hot and puts out so much energy that the equilibrium is broken and the star's gravity can't hold it together anymore. Well, when you drop a black hole into the star's core it's going to start sucking stuff in, and that's going to draw more matter toward the core, and that's going to result in heat, and also going to result in the core gasses getting denser and hence fusion proceeding more easily. Wouldn't this approach likely result in prematurely triggering the supernova instead of preventing it?

You've got that a little backwards —supernova events are triggered when fusion processes in a supermassive star grind to a halt when the core completes it's conversion to iron. At that point, there is no longer any radiation pressure holding up the star's outer layers and that initiates the collapse.

The only remote way Spock's plan can conceivably be rationalised is if the red-matter formed a singularity in close orbit around the target, which would start to draw material away from the star and hence "damp down" the outer layers (i.e. through loss of material by accretion into the orbiting singularity). Unfortunately, by the time a star is at the point of collapse, it is far too late to attempt any such scooping-off of stellar material —at least several thousand years too late. And dropping a red-matter singularity into the actual core won't really affect the supernova process at all since the initial singularity will be far outmassed by the actual star and it will take a long time (comparatively) before the black hole could eat a significant fraction of the star's mass to have any effect on it at all. The supernova will happen first. It is certainly far too late after the blast has occurred to do anything about it. So the plan is still bullshit no matter how you look at it and so is this movie's goofy idea of how a black hole actually works.

[Jon]

Why would Nero's ship travel through the black hole, as well as Spock's, but none of the material it was actually deployed to 'suck in'- shouldn't all the star mass is was supposedly vacumning up have been ejected into the past like Nero and co were? (In the context of the movie treating the black hole as this type of device, that is)

[Anguirus]

Not that there's any evidence for Genesis creating a STAR that I can remember.

Then where does the star at the end of the movie come from? Don't tell me that the local star had a nebula hanging out in its habitable zone.

It DID, what with the E-Nil being able to limp into it in a matter of minutes on partial impulse power.

Well, I'm not qualified to comment on the probability of a nebula orbiting a Sun-like star, but even if this is plausible it's a pretty amazing coincidence that the Regula system is set up this way. Unless the nebula was formed into a planet and then propelled into the habitable zone, which I again presume would take a lot of energy.

The terminology of the films isn't clear either way, but I started thinking that the Regula system and what became known as the Genesis system were merely nearby star systems, and Khan and Kirk traveled at relativistic velocity from Regula to the Mutara Nebula. There are a few other times in the films (opening of Star Trek III, Star Trek VI) when ships seem to be crossing interstellar distances at "full impulse power," at least for a short while, although in TNG this never happens.

You figure there's "some sort of immense power involved" every time something happens which you don't understand: a mentality which is very familiar to me since I deal with a lot of creationists. You obviously don't think like a scientist or an engineer, so perhaps you should just shut the fuck up about energy and power, OK? So far, you've declared that immense power was required in order to cause a negative work situation, and ignored my correction to you on that point.

Huh? I already conceded, and accepted your correction. I don't have any more than a layman's knowledge of astrophysics, and have never claimed otherwise. I'm sorry, but it's just not something I've studied much.

As for the Sun-to-supernova thing, by my limited understanding, the Sun is far too small to create a supernova, and so I presumed that any device that would cause this to occur would be introducing a lot of mass/energy into the system somehow.

[Darth Wong]

Huh? I already conceded, and accepted your correction. I don't have any more than a layman's knowledge of astrophysics, and have never claimed otherwise. I'm sorry, but it's just not something I've studied much.

No you didn't. You said "Then where does the star at the end of the movie come from? Don't tell me that the local star had a nebula hanging out in its habitable zone. That's why I figured that there must be some sort of immense power involved, but I'm no physicist or engineer so I'll concede the point if I'm wrong." I don't see how that's accepting my correction when you give only a conditional concession to a different point.

As for the Sun-to-supernova thing, by my limited understanding, the Sun is far too small to create a supernova, and so I presumed that any device that would cause this to occur would be introducing a lot of mass/energy into the system somehow.

First, there's no reason to believe it's a supernova. Second, if the weapon actually has that much energy, they could simply fire it at ships and space stations or even planets to completely destroy them. The fact that it's basically harmless unless it hits a star says that it does not function the way you think it does.

[Anguirus]

No you didn't. You said "Then where does the star at the end of the movie come from? Don't tell me that the local star had a nebula hanging out in its habitable zone. That's why I figured that there must be some sort of immense power involved, but I'm no physicist or engineer so I'll concede the point if I'm wrong." I don't see how that's accepting my correction when you give only a conditional concession to a different point.

I wasn't clear enough, in that case. I was explaining why I had held the misconception in the first place, as well as expressing my astronomical...confusion, with the star at the end of Star Trek II. Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to wease out of something...it wasn't my intention.

First, there's no reason to believe it's a supernova. Second, if the weapon actually has that much energy, they could simply fire it at ships and space stations or even planets to completely destroy them. The fact that it's basically harmless unless it hits a star says that it does not function the way you think it does.

Well, they were trying to kill a massive fleet, a space station, a planet, and several inhabited moons by creating the supernova in the Bajoran star. Firing it at only one of these objects or ships would have been a waste of a strategic weapon. In fact, the bomb does detonate and destroy the runabout that it is being smuggled in, though it's not a very large explosion. Presuming that this is either a one-off or rare device, doing anything less ambitious with it seems a bit of a waste.

You're right that these are probably using some technobabble and don't have big power requirements. This ties into what I'm pointing out, though...ST is littered with plot devices that ought to be treated as strategic weapons but instead are treated as exotic curiosities. The Dominion appears to have no class of weapons in between photon torpedo and sun-killer. Neither do the Feds, despite the fact that in Generations Soran was able to create a sun-killer (that obliterated its own planets when it went up) with apparently what he found in his garage. There's no explanation of the implications of being able to create technology like this.

[Junghalli]

As for the Sun-to-supernova thing, by my limited understanding, the Sun is far too small to create a supernova, and so I presumed that any device that would cause this to occur would be introducing a lot of mass/energy into the system somehow.

I think it's more likely it achieves its function by somehow doing something to the core of the star that makes it explode. One possibility I can think of offhand is that it's some kind of fusion catalyst that dramatically accelerates the rate of fusion inside the star, to the point that the star's gravity can't hold it together anymore and it blows itself apart. It wouldn't be a proper supernova, but it'd be pretty destructive to any planets in the system.

[Uraniun235]

Not that there's any evidence for Genesis creating a STAR that I can remember.

Then where does the star at the end of the movie come from?

Probably the same star that was shining on Enterprise, Reliant,, Regula 1, and the Spacelab.

I'm pretty sure "creates stars" was an invention of Vonda McIntire for the Star Trek 3 novelization.

[Anguirus]

^ Well, like I said, then you have a little nebula orbiting Regula. In the habitable zone. Rather than, say, being a humongous cloud of gas in interstellar space.

[Batman]

Well, I'm not qualified to comment on the probability of a nebula orbiting a Sun-like star, but even if this is plausible it's a pretty amazing coincidence that the Regula system is set up this way. Unless the nebula was formed into a planet and then propelled into the habitable zone, which I again presume would take a lot of energy.

And for which you have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE. Again, the nebula was close enough for the crippled E-nil to get there in a matter of minutes.

The terminology of the films isn't clear either way, but I started thinking that the Regula system and what became known as the Genesis system were merely nearby star systems, and Khan and Kirk traveled at relativistic velocity from Regula to the Mutara Nebula.

Happily ignoring the fact that not only would that take MONTHS to DECADES depending an the astrographic setup of the region but we see lots of outside shots of Reliant and E-nil going to the nebula and neither of them was traveling near c.

There are a few other times in the films (opening of Star Trek III, Star Trek VI) when ships seem to be crossing interstellar distances at "full impulse power," at least for a short while, although in TNG this never happens.

It doesn't happen in those movies either. Care to point out where in TSFS or TUC ships actually COVER interstellar distances on impulse as opposed to USING impulse for a while DURING covering interstellar distances on Warp?

[Batman]

^ Well, like I said, then you have a little nebula orbiting Regula. In the habitable zone. Rather than, say, being a humongous cloud of gas in interstellar space.

You DO know there's star systems actually WITHIN nebulas, yes?

[Anguirus]

^ Well, yes, as that's where they form. Are you suggesting that the Regula system is within a nebula that then condensed into a single planet that then joined the Regula system?

And for which you have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE.

For what don't I have any evidence? You're very vigorously trying to prove me wrong about SOMETHING, but I'm a litle fuzzy as to WHAT. About the only thing I'm trying to "prove" is that the Genesis device is astronomically ridiculous, in both senses of the word.

BTW, never read the novelization. I always figured the nebula was on the outskirts of the system until the most recent time I watched the movie, when I got the impression instead that they formed a whole new system out of the nebula. And I know that star systems are a crazy long way apart, but I seem to recall relativistic travel being floated as an explanation as to how the Falcon got to Bespin from the Hoth system in an apparently quite short amount of perceived time.

To sum up...either the Mutara Nebula is in the habitable zone of the Regula star, or it isn't. Either scenario creates weirdness, and no matter what, it's truly bizarre in-universe that there isn't further development of Genesis-type technology by the time of the later series, because it's crazy technology.

[Stark]

Isn't it visible from the Regula station? There are shots of Enterprise approaching it under impulse after being crippled, so it's CLEARLY inside the system.

[Batman]

^ Well, yes, as that's where they form. Are you suggesting that the Regula system is within a nebula that then condensed into a single planet that then joined the Regula system?

No. I'm suggesting since there are star systems WITHIN nebulae, one being CLOSE to a star system is no big deal.

And for which you have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE.

For what don't I have any evidence?

The collapsed Mutara nebula being propelled into the Regula system.

You're very vigorously trying to prove me wrong about SOMETHING, but I'm a litle fuzzy as to WHAT.

I already HAVE proved you wrong and as you perfectly know the point of contention was Genesis creating a star, which it didn't.

About the only thing I'm trying to "prove" is that the Genesis device is astronomically ridiculous, in both senses of the word.

This is a completely meaningless statement.

BTW, never read the novelization. I always figured the nebula was on the outskirts of the system until the most recent time I watched the movie, when I got the impression instead that they formed a whole new system out of the nebula.

As evidenced by-what, exactly? The Mutara nebula being close to Regulus station and collapsing into a planet orbiting Regulus system's sun is perfectly in line with what happened in the movie.

And I know that star systems are a crazy long way apart, but I seem to recall relativistic travel being floated as an explanation as to how the Falcon got to Bespin from the Hoth system in an apparently quite short amount of perceived time.

Except we KNOW they took several months getting there, AND we can SEE E-nil and Reliant for a lot of the trip there. No high fractional c travel side effects.

To sum up...either the Mutara Nebula is in the habitable zone of the Regula star, or it isn't.

It is.

Either scenario creates weirdness, and no matter what, it's truly bizarre in-universe that there isn't further development of Genesis-type technology by the time of the later series, because it's crazy technology.

It for once is perfectly logical for Genesis to be lost because the lone person who knows how to actually make it WORK is DEAD.They do not know how to recreate Genesis.

[Junghalli]

Isn't it visible from the Regula station?

Nebulas are often quite large structures - the Orion nebula, for instance, is 24 light years across (ref). Something like that could easily fill an appreciable part of the sky of a planet light years away and show visible features.

Not that this really means anything one way or the other as far as this debate is concerned.

[Stark]

Well no shit, but I recall a shot of Enterprise appraoching the nebula (with it still appearing quite small) after travelling sublight from Regula. It's clearly not very far in astronomical terms.

[Anguirus]

No. I'm suggesting since there are star systems WITHIN nebulae, one being CLOSE to a star system is no big deal.

One does not follow from the other, any more than suggesting that because a building might be on an island, it's no big deal if there's an island inside a building.

The collapsed Mutara nebula being propelled into the Regula system.

Unless the Mutara nebula is already in the habitable zone of the Regula star, then it was propelled, or a star was created from the nebula's raw material by the Genesis effect. There is no particular evidence I mean to cite, it's just that one of these scenarios must have happened, unless I'm overlooking an alternative.

I don't think there's any precedent for a mini-nebula orbiting in the habitable zone of a star. One would think it would have condensed along with the rest of the star's debris disc during the original formation of the system. If such a weird phenomenon did exist in the system, one would think it would be commented upon. At the very least it is odd that the object is called the "Mutara Nebula" instead of the "Regula Nebula."

I already HAVE proved you wrong and as you perfectly know the point of contention was Genesis creating a star, which it didn't.

Well, the novelization apparently claims that this is the case. Is there anything in the film that utterly obliterates this, say, a shot that includes both the Mutara Nebula and the Regula planet? I don't recall being able to see the nebula from Regula 1, either.

I guess one reason why I started to think along these lines is that nebulae DO in fact form into solar systems, and detonating a magic life matrix creator thing inside one might somehow accelerate the process. And typical nebulae are HUGE, far more massive than one planet. So then where does the rest of the cloud go?

Really, I just wonder what the filmmakers misunderstand: how solar systems are laid out, or how big interstellar space is.

Except we KNOW they took several months getting there, AND we can SEE E-nil and Reliant for a lot of the trip there. No high fractional c travel side effects.

Fair enough. I'm not sure that we would have seen such effects in the film even if they *were* explicitly traveling at that speed, though.

It for once is perfectly logical for Genesis to be lost because the lone person who knows how to actually make it WORK is DEAD.They do not know how to recreate Genesis.

Exactly. Star Trek works by the One Mad Genius principle. The Genesis Project wasn't produced by "standing on the shoulders of giants" like scientific breakthroughs in the real world, it was produced by a kid who found a plot device.

[Patrick Degan]

Well, the novelization apparently claims that this is the case. Is there anything in the film that utterly obliterates this, say, a shot that includes both the Mutara Nebula and the Regula planet? I don't recall being able to see the nebula from Regula 1, either.

The Enterprise approaching Regula I spacelab, with the Mutara Nebula in the background.


Evidence for a pre-existing sun in the system: elsewise, what's the Regula I planetoid orbiting, and what's the source of the light shining on the body's one hemisphere?

[Anguirus]

Well there you go. I wonder how that system would work?

Of course, if the Mutara Nebula is really as big as, say, the Orion nebula, then it could be visible despite being light-years away. But as has been noted, then the timing doesn't work with the flight from one to the other.

Anyway, sorry for the hijack. I was wrong about the Genesis device needing a great deal of power. I just think it's weird that no one remains interested in a WMD like that in the 24th century. Did the Klingons really just forget their interest completely?

[Junghalli]

In TNG The Chase the Klingons had some sort of chain reaction weapon that could sterilize the surface of a planet. It may be that they're not particularly interested in the device as a weapon because they figured out something that works just as well and is cheaper.

[Uraniun235]

Either scenario creates weirdness, and no matter what, it's truly bizarre in-universe that there isn't further development of Genesis-type technology by the time of the later series, because it's crazy technology.

Who gives a shit? How much fucking time do you think the writers of post-TWOK Trek should have devoted to the examination of the Genesis Device and its consequences? When should we have gotten to move on and ignore Genesis in favor of new MacGuffins adventures?

Really, I just wonder what the filmmakers misunderstand: how solar systems are laid out, or how big interstellar space is.

You're missing a third possibility - that they deliberately ignored it.

Look, the Mutara Nebula is not intended to be an examination of "what would starship combat look like in an actual nebula environment". It's a contrived plot device intended to hobble the two ships so that they can lob cannonballs photon torpedoes at each other at point-blank while they duck in and out of cool-looking clouds.

And it works.

[Anguirus]

Who gives a shit?

No one. I just like pointing out for those who (rightly) criticize the astronomy in the new movie and (wrongly) worship Star Trek II that the science in Star Trek II is just as bad.

That, and as you pointed out, Star Trek shouldn't be about the political consequences of MacGuffins, but some of their MacGuffins are so hugely powerful that there really should be major-league consequences. So, in a perfect world, I'd prefer them to keep their plot devices under control, at least the Federation-developed ones.

[Uraniun235]

That, and as you pointed out, Star Trek shouldn't be about the political consequences of MacGuffins, but some of their MacGuffins are so hugely powerful that there really should be major-league consequences. So, in a perfect world, I'd prefer them to keep their plot devices under control, at least the Federation-developed ones.

Yeah but what you're missing is that nobody who worked on TWOK had any expectation that there would be another Star Trek television series, and the idea of a third movie was still quite speculative. It was still entirely possible, at that time, that Paramount might decide not to continue the franchise.

Besides, there's nothing to say that the events of Star Trek 3 are definitively the last that was ever heard of the Genesis Project in the Federation. There might have been hundreds of people whose job it was to hammer out treaties and conduct endless interviews and secure various documents - but meanwhile, Our Heroes have moved on to more interesting adventures.