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Stargate Nerd wrote:I don't expect Microsoft and Sony to come out with super expensive hard ware next time, seeing how Nintendo has been beating them handily with a souped up Gamecube. Especially Sony might not want to create another debacle that almost erases any profit they ever made with the PS1+2 all by itself.

The Wii goes after a different market to the 360 and the PS3. Seriously, take a look at what's on the shelves in a gaming store, the bulk of titles out are casual and party games that the 'serious gamers' aren't interested in. Obviously there's plenty of money in that for Nintendo, but that market is still smaller than the 'high-end' market. If either Microsoft or Sony make a low-powered console, they are ceeding the 'high-end' market to their current competitor, and then attempting to compete directly with Nintendo, which has huge brand recognition and developer base in the sector. This is not a winning proposition; Sony might conceivably be forced into it for financial reasons, but even moreso than Microsoft, a low-end PS4 would have a hard time competing against the legacy PS3. Also Sony have been positioning their brand as the 'premium luxury console' (dubious but never mind that now) and turning that around to 'cheap and cheerful' would be very difficult. Finally there is PC gaming; the power of recent consoles and rampant piracy on the PC have been pushing PC gaming into a niche (MMORPGs excepted). However if console power stagnates, with services like Steam getting a handle on piracy, the PC will start to claim market share back.

As for the PS3 'debacle', I doubt anyone in Sony Computer Entertainment would be prepared to call it that, despite their massive market share drop since the last console generation.

There's a good article on IGN about Nintendo 'cooking the golden goose' with the Wii. It makes an interesting case:-

Link

Vympel wrote:There's a good article on IGN about Nintendo 'cooking the golden goose' with the Wii. It makes an interesting case:-

Link

Yeah, pretty much all of this has been a known problem for awhile. Nintendo's lack of games is a real pitfall, and I certainly can't think of a single game I've been interested in getting for the Wii since Brawl came out. In contrast I can name 3 or 4 upcoming 360 titles I'd at least consider renting if not buying.

Not to mention the Wii's abominable graphics. I can understand that nintendo was aiming for a "kiddy" market, with it's lower specced performance; but Wii's graphics look like total ass; jaggies ahoy!

MKSheppard wrote:Not to mention the Wii's abominable graphics. I can understand that nintendo was aiming for a "kiddy" market, with it's lower specced performance; but Wii's graphics look like total ass; jaggies ahoy!

It could be that Nintendo misjudged the rate of HD adoption. I find the Wii's graphics tolerable on an SD display, but they're annoyingly bad on the huge 1080p screen. Then again, many of Nintendo's customers are first-time console buyers with no real basis for comparison, so I doubt they'd have a problem with it.

I agree that the Wii has a near-total lack of decent new titles but worse, Nintendo's online efforts seem to have stalled completely. Downloadable content is impractical due to the Wii's virtually non-existent storage capability, but the Wii lacks most of the 'community' features of the competition as well, and Nintendo seem to be making no real effort to fix this. It seems logical for Nintendo to fix all this by simply bringing out a refreshed, upgraded version; the low cost of the platform and relative ease of backward compatibility make this much easier for them than for Sony and MS. Nintendo aren't known for being logical though.

Starglider wrote:It could be that Nintendo misjudged the rate of HD adoption.

I doubt they considered it. The driving factor in the Wii's graphics chip was making it cheap to produce.

Starglider wrote:
The Wii goes after a different market to the 360 and the PS3. Seriously, take a look at what's on the shelves in a gaming store, the bulk of titles out are casual and party games that the 'serious gamers' aren't interested in.

True, but Microsoft has been getting ever more aggressive in aiming for the casuals. Last E3 it was Lips, At the Movies etc. This E3 they might introduce waggle/motion sensing as far as the rumors go.

Obviously there's plenty of money in that for Nintendo, but that market is still smaller than the 'high-end' market.

I'm not sure if this is true. But I don't have any numbers to show the opposite.

If either Microsoft or Sony make a low-powered console, they are ceeding the 'high-end' market to their current competitor, and then attempting to compete directly with Nintendo, which has huge brand recognition and developer base in the sector.

But Sony isn't all that unfamiliar with this market segment. They tapped into the "casual" market early on with fare like Singstar, EyeToy & Buzz. In fact most of their in house line up was a lot more family & casual friendly last gen. Now the developers that made Ratchet & Clank, Sly & Jak & Daxter are all busy making shooters and sandbox games.

But you do have a point that they might now want to abandon the high end market completely. But I still can't see them making another $800/900 console. They need something that can be sold for $349 at the highest.

Finally there is PC gaming; the power of recent consoles and rampant piracy on the PC have been pushing PC gaming into a niche (MMORPGs excepted). However if console power stagnates, with services like Steam getting a handle on piracy, the PC will start to claim market share back.

Possible.

As for the PS3 'debacle', I doubt anyone in Sony Computer Entertainment would be prepared to call it that, despite their massive market share drop since the last console generation.

They probably wouldn't, but losing enough money on the PS3 to erase any profits the PS1 & PS2 ever earned can be fairly called a debacle.

MKSheppard wrote:Not to mention the Wii's abominable graphics. I can understand that nintendo was aiming for a "kiddy" market, with it's lower specced performance; but Wii's graphics look like total ass; jaggies ahoy!

But Nintendo brought the fun back to video games dammit!!!!

Microsoft is 'aggressive' at aiming at casual gameplay if you mean poorly finished or unfinished games that recieve no support but heaps of marketing. It took Lips four months to have it's basic featureset patched in. At the Movies? Remember Scene It? No? LOL!

Sony doesn't have to make a lowend casual console; they already have on in PS2, which provides free money off the back of Singstar etc. So what if an iPhone has better graphics?

Stark wrote:Microsoft is 'aggressive' at aiming at casual gameplay if you mean poorly finished or unfinished games that recieve no support but heaps of marketing. It took Lips four months to have it's basic featureset patched in. At the Movies? Remember Scene It? No? LOL!

Well that's what they keep announcing with great fanfare and like you said the marketing is there.

Sony doesn't have to make a lowend casual console; they already have on in PS2, which provides free money off the back of Singstar etc. So what if an iPhone has better graphics?

How long can the PS2 be kept alive?

Stargate Nerd wrote: Well that's what they keep announcing with great fanfare and like you said the marketing is there.

So it's aggressive if you mean three unsupported games that don't even have finished websites, gotcha. They'll really sieze the FAMILY FUN NIGHT market that way.

How long can the PS2 be kept alive?

How much can Sony afford to invest in developing a new shit console to compete with the Wii? Remember what happned LAST TIME Sony developed a console? Massively late, massively expensive, massively overcomplicated, market lucky last.

PS3 has been declared undead, and will now be demanding brains for use.

How much can Sony afford to invest in developing a new shit console to compete with the Wii? Remember what happned LAST TIME Sony developed a console? Massively late, massively expensive, massively overcomplicated, market lucky last.

I'm not suggesting they make their new console less powerful than the PS3. I just don't think that they'll engage in another super expensive experiment and instead settle for something that's more affordable than a PS3.

Starglider wrote: Highly unlikely. They're making a huge amount of money on their high margin low end hardware. Directly competing with Sony and Microsoft does not make financial sense.

Thereagain, what sense does it make to compete with themselves? The Wii makes a killing from a market which does not care about the specs, and will probably continue to do so for the forseeable future.

I am very curious as to how powerful the "Super Wii" will be.

Lord Woodlouse wrote:Thereagain, what sense does it make to compete with themselves? The Wii makes a killing from a market which does not care about the specs,

A market which cares less about the specs, but Wii games still look like pixellated polygonated crap on HD televisions (e.g. Twilight Princess has some of the best graphics on the Wii, and it still looks embarassingly bad compared to say Lost Odyssey), and the gulf will get much bigger when MS and Sony refresh their consoles. If the console is sold at a profit then getting a good portion of the market to upgrade to a newer version is an instant win, and it allows for new versions of all the core franchises (Mario, Zelda, Metroid etc) that sell automatically without needing to really innovate.

I am very curious as to how powerful the "Super Wii" will be.

Well the Wii hardware is roughly equivalent to the first Xbox (a little better in some ways, a little worse in others), so I'd guess roughly equivalent to a 360. I'm guessing no blu-ray, since the Wii won't even play DVDs without hacks, but I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo used a proprietary capacity-upgraded DVD-derived format similar to the discs the Dreamcast used (which were basically double density CDs).

Starglider wrote:

Lord Woodlouse wrote:Thereagain, what sense does it make to compete with themselves? The Wii makes a killing from a market which does not care about the specs,

A market which cares less about the specs, but Wii games still look like pixellated polygonated crap on HD televisions (e.g. Twilight Princess has some of the best graphics on the Wii, and it still looks embarassingly bad compared to say Lost Odyssey), and the gulf will get much bigger when MS and Sony refresh their consoles. If the console is sold at a profit then getting a good portion of the market to upgrade to a newer version is an instant win, and it allows for new versions of all the core franchises (Mario, Zelda, Metroid etc) that sell automatically without needing to really innovate.

Not to get overly pedantic or anything, but Twilight Princess is essentially just a Gamecube game, and has no where near the best graphics a Wii is capable of. I know a lot of people mutter about the Wii being a glorified GC, but it's still supposed to be 1.5 to 2 times more powerful.

From what I gather graphics are not in any sense a consideration for the majority of Wii buyers. They're not even aware how the Wii compares to the MS and Sony offerings because they're just that much "casual gamers". It's nothing more than a (fitness assisting) toy to them.

The gulf is already pretty big. It's not stopping people buying Wiis. It is, however, a massive stumbling block for the lucrative hardcore gamer market.

Well the Wii hardware is roughly equivalent to the first Xbox (a little better in some ways, a little worse in others), so I'd guess roughly equivalent to a 360. I'm guessing no blu-ray, since the Wii won't even play DVDs without hacks, but I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo used a proprietary capacity-upgraded DVD-derived format similar to the discs the Dreamcast used (which were basically double density CDs).

Fair enough. I reckon you're right that it won't be as powerful, but I'm curious to see if they attempt to make it roughly in the same league. Especially if they're still selling and marketing the Wii itself.

Indeed, I got my Wii for pretty much the sole purpose of Metroid Prime 3. And I've had a half dozen titles since then that were fun. (Though no new ones since the Okami Port.) Apparently Team Ninja has been made to work on a new Metroid title, but I have my doubts.

Nintendo's continuing... lack of releases for their huge brands is the main killer. Yeah they're derivative sequels, but to me, that's what a sequel should honestly be. Take the formula, improve on it, and tada.

Also: Twilight Princess IS a GCN game. The GCN version was delayed a month to move Wii's. This greatly displeases me even now.




But, I'm one of those odd duck consumers. After I finish building my new comp, I'm going to get myself a PS3. (Own like a half dozen games for it already, just play'em on my friend's console.)

Andrew_Fireborn wrote:
But, I'm one of those odd duck consumers. After I finish building my new comp, I'm going to get myself a PS3. (Own like a half dozen games for it already, just play'em on my friend's console.)

You might want to wait a few months with that PS3 purchase. Rumor is that Sony is about to unveil/release a slim PS3 for the holiday season.

That's the rumor. But by the time I get the free funds again, it'll be the holiday season, and we'll know. XP