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His Divine Shadow wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It's patently retarded HDS. You can put as big of a power armor for spacemarine use as you want on a bigger trooper. But a physically larger trooper is inefficient and neccessitates a larger armor for the same weapons and defense a smaller one would neccessitate.

They can wear heavier and stronger armor(which can also be powered ofcourse, and the armor itself can contain more equipment and such)

Since the armor is powered anyway, the size of the trooper becomes more or less negligent. In fact, a larger trooper requires a larger armor due to his intrinsic size that carries no more equipment than an equal size armor would on a smaller trooper.

Because the armor is self-powered anyway, the size of the trooper becomes irrelevent.

His Divine Shadow wrote:and more equipment, internally they can put, say more hearts and other genetically engineered custom organs and/or cybernetic enhanchments to create an elite fighting solider, very 40k'ish.

Oh yes. Use one uberwank sci-fi verse to justify your tastes as opposed to realism.

We're talking fucking blasters here. A hit that penetrates armor will kill the trooper. Extra organs and shit is useless manipulation of the body. Greater speed in running and whatnot is the job of the armor. Why would the body have to be physically bigger to wear an effective armor?

His Divine Shadow wrote:They can easily wield those large weapons wich I suspect can take out vehicles and infantry with ease.

What the hell? A normal sized trooper wearing an identical sized armor will be able to fire the same weapons, AND his armor will be more efficient and have more augmenting equipment, as it is larger in proportion to the body inside it.

Tell me: what fucking good is a bigger-than-standard over-muscular behemoth? What can they do with a power armor that normal troopers wouldn't do fine?

His Divine Shadow wrote:Special Ops, they'd also be good as shocktroopers and close range fighting in crowded areas.

Big fat targets. Give me a small concussion missile launcher and a decent squad any day.

His Divine Shadow wrote:You can find interesting notes from the 40k universe on what one could do with soldiers like this.

Appeal to [irrelevent] authority.

Perhaps the ARC Trooper is just a clonetrooper with genetic manipulation for superior strength (at what cost?) which allows him to carry heavier armour and weapons into battle without slowing him down.

Darth Wong wrote:Perhaps the ARC Trooper is just a clonetrooper with genetic manipulation for superior strength (at what cost?) which allows him to carry heavier armour and weapons into battle without slowing him down.

I doubt it'd be that simple. I'm guessing that they get more advanced combat education and such. Perhaps they are trained apart from the rest of the troopers.

Since the armor is powered anyway, the size of the trooper becomes more or less negligent. In fact, a larger trooper requires a larger armor due to his intrinsic size that carries no more equipment than an equal size armor would on a smaller trooper.
Because the armor is self-powered anyway, the size of the trooper becomes irrelevent.

Conceeded, though we're not sure this armor is self-powered.

Oh yes. Use one uberwank sci-fi verse to justify your tastes as opposed to realism

*sigh* Really come on, do you wish to discuss or flame? I thought I knew you better than this.

We're talking fucking blasters here. A hit that penetrates armor will kill the trooper. Extra organs and shit is useless manipulation of the body. Greater speed in running and whatnot is the job of the armor. Why would the body have to be physically bigger to wear an effective armor?

You don't know it's useless, it clearly depends on what it's intended for and what it will do, as it seems, this is a spec op unit of some form.
And I did say vehicles and infantry, they're clearly variable yield weapons that can be used in a great many situations.

Ofcourse the armor might now be powered here either, there are likely purposes for that we know nothing of here.

What the hell? A normal sized trooper wearing an identical sized armor will be able to fire the same weapons, AND his armor will be more efficient and have more augmenting equipment, as it is larger in proportion to the body inside it.

That he will, but thats for Darktroopers, they do not have Darktroopers now, which might be why they have bigger soldiers

Big fat targets. Give me a small concussion missile launcher and a decent squad any day.

You can't really use a missile launcher in a cramped situation, a squad might be hard to sneak in to an enemy complex also compared to a single person.

Appeal to [irrelevent] authority

Why? They have such soldiers, and shows of scenarios where they are used, what could possibly be wrong with that?
I merely pointed it out as a good reference, instead you insult me and then spit on me, gee, thanks alot.


At any rate, they got these big ass soldiers with their bigass weapons and bigass everything, they got a reason for it, what is it? Well I dunno, but maybe we can look at other universes with their bigass soldiers and bigass weapons and see what they do with them?

Darth Wong wrote:Perhaps the ARC Trooper is just a clonetrooper with genetic manipulation for superior strength (at what cost?) which allows him to carry heavier armour and weapons into battle without slowing him down.

My argument in a nutshell.
Ofcourse as IP did point out in his own way, power armor could fill that same purpose, ofcourse it'd be limited to times when said trooper is in the suit then, there might be other issues why the trooper himself is modified in this manner.

The cost issue is also there, maybe it's simply cheaper to create a few bigger clonetroopers than it is to design and fabricate a new power armor to perform similar jobs.

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Oh yes. Use one uberwank sci-fi verse to justify your tastes as opposed to realism

*sigh* Really come on, do you wish to discuss or flame? I thought I knew you better than this.

Come on. It's an appeal to authority and you know it. Whether 40k does it or not doesn't make it make sense.

You don't know it's useless, it clearly depends on what it's intended for and what it will do, as it seems, this is a spec op unit of some form.
And I did say vehicles and infantry, they're clearly variable yield weapons that can be used in a great many situations.

My point was is the only thing that has to be big enough to hold the weapons is the armor. Making the soldier bigger makes more of the armor simply dedicated to covering and supporting him and this less efficient.

That he will, but thats for Darktroopers, they do not have Darktroopers now, which might be why they have bigger soldiers

SW is more or less technologically stagnant. Why would power armor have never been in their technological ability until the OT?

You can't really use a missile launcher in a cramped situation, a squad might be hard to sneak in to an enemy complex also compared to a single person.

The armor wouldn't be that good. High power rifle and disruptor shots would probably easily penetrate.

Why? They have such soldiers, and shows of scenarios where they are used, what could possibly be wrong with that?
I merely pointed it out as a good reference, instead you insult me and then spit on me, gee, thanks alot.

This is like saying because Trek uses half the things they do and show ways they can be done it makes it a good source. Just because 40k does it doesn't make it a good idea. Why make large soldiers when you can make regular soldiers with big armor which works better.

I'm not insulting you. It IS an appeal to authority. You have to demonstrate why because 40k does it it is the right approach to want in SW.

At any rate, they got these big ass soldiers with their bigass weapons and bigass everything, they got a reason for it, what is it? Well I dunno, but maybe we can look at other universes with their bigass soldiers and bigass weapons and see what they do with them?

Actually the immediate precedent would be to look in that universe.

We know the Galaxy Far Far Away is technologically stagnant.

We've seen Spacetroopers and Darktroopers. Than why assume the parallel and WANT the parallel with 40k

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:Perhaps the ARC Trooper is just a clonetrooper with genetic manipulation for superior strength (at what cost?) which allows him to carry heavier armour and weapons into battle without slowing him down.

The cost issue is also there, maybe it's simply cheaper to create a few bigger clonetroopers than it is to design and fabricate a new power armor to perform similar jobs.

Mechanical > Biological

And why would a unique suit of armor (the Clonetroopers probably have spacetrooper varients as it is) cost more than the trials to produce a seperate series of clones of larger than normal size and vastly greater manipulation of a complex biological organism like a human.

Come on. It's an appeal to authority and you know it. Whether 40k does it or not doesn't make it make sense

Actually I felt that in 40k we can see examples of what one can do with such soldiers, and how it could possibly apply to SW to see what possible reasons there could be.

SW is more or less technologically stagnant. Why would power armor have never been in their technological ability until the OT?

Cost likely, also it makes the soldier less dependant on the armor, if it breaks down or an EMP attack scrambles the systems the trooper can still move for example, it might also put out less EM energy if it's not powered, this might be usefull for specop missions in some manner, it might also simply be cheap and one gets powerfull soldiers at the same time for little cost beyond a larger armor suit that ought to be relatively simple and the initial creation of the base DNA for all the troopers to be cloned from.

The armor wouldn't be that good. High power rifle and disruptor shots would probably easily penetrate.

That we can't be sure of, the armoring used for most soldiers like stormies and clones is not the best there is, just best cost/efficency ratio.
There are much more durable alloys out there, like the one that the YVH is made of for example.

It could also be that it's cheaper to make non-powered suits and genengineered troopers rather than the other way around, you only need to grow such a trooper once, and the cloning process is not really different from cloning ordinary troopers once the base DNA has been created.

This is like saying because Trek uses half the things they do and show ways they can be done it makes it a good source. Just because 40k does it doesn't make it a good idea. Why make large soldiers when you can make regular soldiers with big armor which works better

See above.

I'm not insulting you. It IS an appeal to authority. You have to demonstrate why because 40k does it it is the right approach to want in SW

I didn't claim that, I said it was a good source to look in for examples of huge genengineered soldiers, the tactics ought to be similar and not universe dependant.

Actually the immediate precedent would be to look in that universe.
We know the Galaxy Far Far Away is technologically stagnant.
We've seen Spacetroopers and Darktroopers. Than why assume the parallel and WANT the parallel with 40k?

I'm only assuming a parallel as a means for finding a reason, it ought not be universe specific, just tactical.


Anyway, they got them at any rate, the reasons which we might not find out yet.

Quick question:

Does anyone know what ARC is supposed to stand for?

*shrug*


Armored Recon Corps.

Lord Sander wrote:

Simon H.Johansen wrote:I like the idea of elite clonetroopers. Probably even more genetically modified than regulars.

But now the question is, why aren't all Clonetroopers like this? No reason to make the majority less than they could be.

Maybe it would be too costly to make all Clonetroopers like this?? Remember how expensive the Clonetrooper project is - first, there is the cloning. (The cheapest cloning corporations today demand roughly 200,000$ USD per clone) THEN, there's the genetic engineering to make the standard Clonetroopers grow faster and learn better. And when you add the cost of weapons and armour - then standard clonetroopers are already quite expensive.

Imagine then how much it would cost if these clonetroopers are even more genetically engineered and heavier equipped. Remember, the cloners are probably also interested in profits.

Well, these guys appear to be the equivalent of 40k Space Marines.

The Marines are engineered to be stronger, faster, both mentally and physically, which allows them to utilise the advanced features of their power armour to its full extent.


It also means they are physcially big enough to carry heavy weapons that normally would be mounted on vehicles.

Marines are used as shock troops, elite spec-ops troops etc.

Their engineering makes them tough enough to absorb a lot of damage, even from weapons that cut through the armour with no problems.


I don't know specifics on the ARC troopers, but if they are bigger, stronger and faster than a normal clonie due to their engineering, then I can't see what the problem is with them, they would make superior, well armed heavy infantry, that could take on superior numerical forces and win.

In 40k there are plenty of opponents that have better guns etc than the marines, but they regularly get mauled by the marines because on average, the Marines physical and mental enhancements make them better able to survive in combat, and combined with the rather large guns they carry, this can make the difference.

Whereas normal humans in power armour are much less efficient, i.e. the Adeptus Sororitas, they have the benefits of the armour i.e. strenght +protection etc.

But they lack the basic physical toughness of the marines, the ablity to absorb/heal wounds, the incredible endurance, the mental fortitude, the resistance to radiation, toxins, disease, go without food for weeks without decreasing efficiency, and so on.

So if the ARC troopers engineering makes them a better, more able soldier, capable of using above average firepower as standard, and generally being better than a Clonie in every way......

There might be another justification for not going with powered armor and instead increasing the carrying capacity of the organic system carrying the armor:

portable ion guns

Jawas can produce ion blasters capable of disabling a droid with one shot. Similarly, Imperial troops are occasionally issued ion guns with variable settings, varying from a mild shock to the targeted droid to completely frying the droid with spectacular pyrotechnics.

Man-portable ion guns would be an obvious and cheap answer to powered armor. Since it is unlikely that a completely novel technology would be used to produce the feedback systems and strength-enhancing or strength-replacing systems of the armor, the technology has to be the same as that used for the equivalent droid systems. It may not be practical in Star Wars to provide a suit of reasonably sized powered armor with sufficient insulation to resist a Jawa's ion blaster.

Patrick Ogaard wrote:There might be another justification for not going with powered armor and instead increasing the carrying capacity of the organic system carrying the armor:

portable ion guns

Jawas can produce ion blasters capable of disabling a droid with one shot. Similarly, Imperial troops are occasionally issued ion guns with variable settings, varying from a mild shock to the targeted droid to completely frying the droid with spectacular pyrotechnics.

Man-portable ion guns would be an obvious and cheap answer to powered armor. Since it is unlikely that a completely novel technology would be used to produce the feedback systems and strength-enhancing or strength-replacing systems of the armor, the technology has to be the same as that used for the equivalent droid systems. It may not be practical in Star Wars to provide a suit of reasonably sized powered armor with sufficient insulation to resist a Jawa's ion blaster.

I begin to wonder about their use against combat droids. Is their insulation so good that it's easier just to destroy them outright?

Obviously ion weapons aren't that affective against front-line combat mechanicals. AT-TEs and most vehicles have built-in shielding that handles ion weapons and EMP w/out any problem.

Or maybe it doesn't matter, a blaster will do just as good a job and it'lll work on many more things too.

Saxton already clarified that the vehicles present on Geonosis were well-shielded against such interference.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Saxton already clarified that the vehicles present on Geonosis were well-shielded against such interference.

Where exactly? I haven't seen that.

And I wasn't talking about vehicles tho, but battledroids.

And you don't think they have the ability to make onboard effective circutry/electronics shielding againt ion fire/EMP for Battledroids if they can do the same for AT-TEs?

It is in the AT-TE section.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:And you don't think they have the ability to make onboard effective circutry/electronics shielding againt ion fire/EMP for Battledroids if they can do the same for AT-TEs?

Yes.
Take IG-88 for example.

IG-88 is an armored assassin droid, not a frontline combat droid.

When you know your enemies are going to throw millions of combat droids at you, you'd bring out ion cannons if they were effective.

IG-88 is an assassin droid, and is equipped with quite complex and sophisticated sensors and scanners, and generally the more complex or sophisticated a device is, the easier its thrown out of function. It's extremely complex "brain" might also be difficult to shield. Which also answers another possible reason why they don't make sentient droid armies. A telescopic sight for precision fire is easily thrown out of allignment; iron sights are not.

As an assassin droid, its purpose is to attack enemies that don't know a droid is coming to slaughter them all, hence most of your targets are armed w/ manstopper blaster weapons, hence why its defense is excellent against those.

The battle droids are pure simplicity and function, with few mechanisms and functions very delicate or sophisticated, and thus is probably easier to shield, in addition to it being a neccessity when your enemies know you're bringing out droid armies, that they will bring out ion cannons and slaughter you if they're effective. Hence you shield.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:IG-88 is an armored assassin droid, not a frontline combat droid.

Why would there be a difference? IG-88 is state of the art and crammed full of all kinds of gadgets and functions, and he has repair systems to deal with such damage, which seems very complex and expensive in comparison to shielded circuits, why does he have those if shielding downscales without problems, as you assume.

And as I said, I don't believe that shielding scales down as well as you say it does, that would also be another reason for ARC troopers BTW.

When you know your enemies are going to throw millions of combat droids at you, you'd bring out ion cannons if they were effective

But I don't see why, since blasters are as effective, an ion cannon hit will down a droid, a blaster hit will down a droid, but a blaster works on so many more things than just droids, so ion cannons are relatively useless since they won't do their job an better than blasters, but possibly worse since they have only one application.

No, I'd bring out blasters, they're more effective than Ion cannons and more versatile.

The battle droids are pure simplicity and function, with few mechanisms and functions very delicate or sophisticated, and thus is probably easier to shield, in addition to it being a neccessity when your enemies know you're bringing out droid armies, that they will bring out ion cannons and slaughter you if they're effective. Hence you shield.

Shielding would expensive and useless for such droids, blasters still take them down with a single shot, so there's no point to it, unless one would like to give his own forces a disadvantage with a gun that can only kill droids and nothing else.

Also, just because they are shielded, doesn't make them immune, so all in all, that could very well be one reason for ARC troopers.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Also, just because they are shielded, doesn't make them immune, so all in all, that could very well be one reason for ARC troopers.

Quite right. One of the IG-88 units was destroyed by Fett by hitting it with a large, shoulder-mounted ion cannon followed by a grenade.

Also, immobilizing a soldier in a suit of powered armor garners one a prisoner of war. Immobilizing a battle droid garners one an armed and ambulatory toaster.

http://www.starwars.com/eu/news/2003/02 ... 225_4.html

Another pic of ARC troopers in action.