Adminsitration Seeks Change to Don't Ask, Don't Tell

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Samuel
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Re: Adminsitration Seeks Change to Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Post by Samuel »

You don't have to be a religious fanatic to oppose murdering babies, and if you think that fetuses are babies, then abortion becomes a powerful wedge issue for you.
Which is why evangelicals also oppose free prenatal care... the "it kills babies" does not make sense except as a smokescreen given they are fine with letting children die by inaction.
For American social conservatives (including the ones who aren't religious fanatics), "person" is generally defined to begin at conception.
This is actually new. Abortion was legal until the 1830s. The idea that fetuses were babies is new and invented.
Liberalization works best as a gradual process. If your goal was to establish legalized abortion in American society, your best bet would be to let people to come around to the idea that "abortion is tolerable" quietly- or waiting for the old guard to die without passing on their memes to their children, as was already happening on other issues like race.
Race was heavily forced foward by the government. Remember the Reconstruction period?
As a result, many Americans resent the fact that (in their minds) they were forced to accept infanticide by a bunch of unelected, unaccountable judges.
So? That is exactly what happened. The problem is they are too retarded to understand that is how the system is supposed to work. The judges are unelected, they are mostly unaccountable
Simon_Jester
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Re: Adminsitration Seeks Change to Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Post by Simon_Jester »

Darth Wong wrote:This sounds like a lot of nonsense to me. We had plenty of liberal precedents imposed on us in a top-down manner in Canada (most recently being gay marriage), and it didn't cause a backlash. The "backlash" is more simply explained as Americans being intrinsically more conservative and reactionary.
Top-down imposition of policy works fine when a majority of the public is behind it, and when the number of people inclined to react against it is limited. That's what happened with civil rights and racial segregation in the US. By the time the government started hammering desegregation down the racists' throats, most of the country was prepared to support them in doing so. The remaining racists were isolated by the lack of popular support- even if there were still a lot of whites who didn't care much for the idea of blacks moving into white neighborhoods, they were no longer prepared to put up with something like the Ku Klux Klan committing terrorism to keep it from happening.

But the success of any domestic policy in a democracy depends heavily on popular support, or at least on popular acquiescence. Try to institute reforms without persuading enough people to put up with them and things get ugly.

When that happens, it's tempting to say "Well, screw them! This is right, dammit!" But a democratic government can't afford an unlimited amount of that kind of thinking, because when the government persistently tells the people they're wrong, the people will go find a new government that agrees with them.
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And yes, I agree, the American population is more conservative and more reactionary than the Canadian population, statistically speaking. But conservatives still get to vote, and any system that tries to deprive people of the vote because their political views are wrong is going to become an abomination in short order.

I don't agree with them, but I don't think I can afford to behave as if they are irrelevant simply because they are wrong.

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Samuel wrote:Which is why evangelicals also oppose free prenatal care... the "it kills babies" does not make sense except as a smokescreen given they are fine with letting children die by inaction.
If I want intellectual integrity, I won't go looking for it in the brain of a religious fanatic. I'm not saying they're right, or even self-consistent. I'm saying that they do in fact believe abortion to be infanticide, and oppose it strongly for this reason.

And, again, that there are quite a few Americans who are not religious fanatics but strongly oppose abortion because they believe it to be infanticide. And those people vote. The truth or falsehood of their beliefs is irrelevant; people who are wrong still get a vote.
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For American social conservatives (including the ones who aren't religious fanatics), "person" is generally defined to begin at conception.
This is actually new. Abortion was legal until the 1830s. The idea that fetuses were babies is new and invented.
Interesting. I knew that the idea of "fetus == baby" must have come about some time between the Middle Ages and today, but I didn't know when. On the other hand, a "new" custom that dates back 180 years is functionally the same as an "old" custom; at that point, no one can remember anyone who remembers the custom not being applied.
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Race was heavily forced foward by the government. Remember the Reconstruction period?
Yes. That's a good third example of what I'm talking about. It's beyond question that the government was right to try and force an end to institutional racism on the American South during Reconstruction. But it didn't work. Indeed, it stopped working only two or three election cycles after the southern states got the vote back. And the reaction against Reconstruction took roughly another century to dismantle.

We freed the slaves and wound up with apartheid, because the US government wasn't prepared to turn the South into occupied territory for the next generation or two in hopes that southern whites would eventually get around to accepting an equal footing with southern blacks. Even if they had been so willing, I'm not sure it would have worked.

And so you'll notice that with the notable exception of the replacement of chattel slavery with debt slavery, real progress towards racial equality in the American South did not come until the majority of people in the South were prepared to tolerate that progress rather than fighting it.
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So? That is exactly what happened. The problem is they are too retarded to understand that is how the system is supposed to work. The judges are unelected, they are mostly unaccountable
Yes. On the other hand, since judges are (as we agree) unelected and unaccountable, it's understandable that people who like to have a vote in the actions of their government resent it when judges start imposing widespread changes in the legal landscape.

You don't have to be retarded to find this unpleasant; you just have to harbor the fond fantasy that you should in fact be allowed to vote on what the government does, and that your vote should not be vetoed by some group that cannot be held accountable for its actions.

Of course, nobody seems to mind very much when judges make policy that they agree with. Very few people are that free of hypocrisy. But everyone seems to resent it when judges make major policy rulings against them.

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Again, to make this as obvious as possible: This has nothing to do with which policies I agree with. It's a common pattern whenever a policy is forced on an unwilling public by the government in a democracy. It happens when the policy is good (Reconstruction, and in my opinion Roe v. Wade) and when the policy is bad (Prohibition).
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Dominus Atheos
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Re: Adminsitration Seeks Change to Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Post by Dominus Atheos »

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I'm no lawyer, but in any practical sense, if this is legal, then it would mean that the President has the personal ability to nullify any law he wishes to, with no real checks or balances.
Admittedly, I'm a little fuzzy on the legalities of presidential executive orders as well. It just seemed as if most people understood this as well within the president's rights.
It is.
The process of lifting the ban on service by openly gay personnel is both political and military in nature. While research shows that the planned policy change does not pose an unmanageable risk to the military, how the transition is executed politically can affect how smoothly the change is implemented. The President has the authority to issue an executive order halting the operation of "don't ask, don't tell." Under 10 U.S.C. § 12305 (“Authority of the President to Suspend Certain Laws Relating to Promotion, Retirement, and Separation”), Congress grants the President authority to suspend the separation of military members during any period of national emergency in which members of a reserve component are serving involuntarily on active duty. We believe that issuing such an order would be beneficial to military readiness, as it would minimize the chances of replaying a debate that is already largely settled but could still inflame the passions of some in the military. Once gay people are officially serving openly in the military, it will become clear to those with concerns about the policy change that service by openly gay personnel does not compromise unit cohesion, recruiting, retention or morale. This in turn will make it easier to secure the passage of the Military Readiness Enhancement Act (MREA) in Congress, which would repeal “don’t ask, don’t tell.” While it would be optimal to see lawmakers embrace repeal by passing MREA, it may not be politically feasible to do so, despite overwhelming public support and Democratic control of Congress. Conservative Democrats in Congress may oppose MREA, and the White House may not wish to expend the political capital necessary to overcome their resistance. The executive option may end up costing the President less in political capital than the effort needed to push repeal through Congress. And it could help avoid the emergence of split military leadership which could make the transition bumpier than it has to be.
Relevant section of the actual report:
10 U.S.C. § 654 (“Policy Concerning Homosexuality in the Armed Forces”) states that a “member of the armed forces shall be separated from the armed forces under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense if one or more of the following findings is made and approved in accordance with procedures set forth in such regulations”: (1) “the member has engaged in, attempted to engage in, or solicited another to engage in a homosexual act or acts”; (2) “the member has stated that he or she is a homosexual or bisexual, or words to that effect”; or (3) “the member has married or attempted to marry a person known to be of the same biological sex.” The President of the United States has authority under the laws of the United States and the Constitution to suspend all investigations, separation proceedings, or other personnel actions conducted under the authority of 10 U.S.C. § 654 or its implementing regulations. Below we explain the basis of such authority.

I. The Laws of the United States.

Federal law recognizes that the President and Congress share authority to govern themilitary. In fact, by law currently in effect, Congress has already granted the President authority with respect to military promotions, retirements, and separations in a time of national emergency. This authority includes the power to suspend laws such as 10 U.S.C. § 654. Under 10 U.S.C. § 12305 (“Authority of the President to Suspend Certain Laws Relating to Promotion, Retirement, and Separation”), Congress grants the President authority to suspend any provision of law relating to the separation of any member of the armed forces who the President determines is essential to the national security of the United States, during any period of national emergency in which members of a reserve component are serving involuntarily on active duty. The statute states:
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, during any period members of a reserve component are serving on active duty pursuant to an order to active duty under authority of section 12301, 12302, or 12304 of this title, the President may suspend any provision of law relating to promotion, retirement, or separation applicable to any member of the armed forces who the President determines is essential to the national security of the United States.
This law is colloquially referred to as “stop-loss” authority, and it has been used to suspend the voluntary separation of members of the military who have reached the end of their enlistment obligation or have qualified for retirement. The law, however, gives the President authority to suspend “any provision of law” relating to separation of members of the armed forces, including involuntary separations under 10 U.S.C. § 654. The Army has announced it will phase out the “stop-loss” program, which forcibly retains soldiers who wish to leave after their tours. It is important to point out that this use of stop-loss has been particularly unpopular because it forces ongoing service by those who wish to leave the military, whereas the use of stop-loss to suspend homosexual conduct discharges would, by contrast, allow ongoing service by those who generally wish to remain in uniform.

10 U.S.C. § 12305 gives the President authority to suspend laws relating to separation of members of the military if two requirements are met. First, the suspension must occur during a period of national emergency in which members of the military reserve are involuntarily called to active duty under sections 12301 (reserve components generally), 12302 (ready reserve), and 12304 (selected reserve and certain individual ready reserve members). As of April 7, 2009, there were 93,993 members of reserve components or retired members serving on active duty after involuntary activation. Second, the President must make a determination that retention of members of the military—and suspension of any law requiring their separation—is essential to the national security of the United States. The conditions of 10 U.S.C. § 12305 are sensible because they give the President authority to suspend laws relating to separation when a national emergency has strained personnel requirements to the point that members of the reserve forces have been involuntarily called to active duty. The constitutionality of 10 U.S.C. § 12305 was upheld in Santiago v. Rumsfeld, 425 F.3d 549 (9th Cir. 2005).

Under 10 U.S.C. § 123 (“Authority to Suspend Officer Personnel Laws During War or National Emergency”), Congress grants the President similar authority to suspend laws relating to the separation of officer personnel.

The “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy itself, as codified by Congress, also grants authority to the Department of Defense to determine the procedures under which investigations, separation proceedings, and other personnel actions under the authority of 10 U.S.C. § 654 will be carried out. Section 654(b) states: "A member of the armed forces shall be separated from the armed forces under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense if one or more of the following findings is made and approved in accordance with procedures set forth in such regulation." Under this section, the Secretary of Defense has discretion to determine the specific manner in which “don’t ask, don’t tell” will be implemented. Furthermore, the statute does not direct the military to make any particular findings of prohibited conduct or statements; it only states that members shall be separated under regulations prescribed by the Secretary if such findings are made. The Secretary has broad authority to devise and implement the procedures under which those findings may be made.

A recent decision of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, Witt v. Department of the Air Force, 527 F.3d 806 (9th Cir. 2008), calls into question whether “don’t ask, don’t tell,” as implemented by regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense, violates the due process rights of service members under the Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

The court remanded the case for further findings on whether the separation of this specific service member would significantly further an interest in military effectiveness, and whether less intrusive means would be unlikely to further the same interest. The Secretary has authority under 10 U.S.C. § 654 to determine whether regulations implementing the statute are consistent with the ruling in Witt, whether the regulations should be revised and, if necessary, whether amendments to the statute should be recommended for further consideration by Congress.

II. The Constitution of the United States.

Federal law reflects that the President, the Congress, and the federal courts share constitutional power and responsibility for governance of the armed forces of the United States.

1. Under Article I, Section 8, Clauses 12-14, Congress has the power to raise and support armies, to provide and maintain a Navy, and to make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces. Congress legislated under this authority in enacting 10 U.S.C. § 654.

2. Under Article II, Section 2, Clause 1, the President has the power to act as Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of the United States.

3. Under Article III, federal courts have the power to decide all cases arising under the Constitution and the laws of the United States. Federal courts have the power to interpret law and ensure that the other branches of government act in accordance with the Constitution.

Although Congress has power to make rules to govern the military, it shares that power with the President, who, as Commander-in-Chief, has power to direct the operation of military forces. If Congress were understood to have sole power to remove members of the military from the chain of command operating under the direction of the President, particularly in a time of national emergency, the President’s ability to carry out his constitutional obligations would be impaired. Therefore, the constitutional authority of the Commander-in-Chief includes at least shared authority to ensure that members of the military essential to national security are not removed from duty.

III. The Regulations of the Department of Defense.

10 U.S.C. § 654 directs that the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy be implemented under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense. There are three principal Department of Defense implementing regulations in force: Department of Defense Instruction 1304.26, “Qualification Standards for Enlistment, Appointment, and Induction” (July 11, 2007); Department of Defense Instruction 1332.14, “Enlisted Administrative Separations” (August 28, 2008); and Department of Defense Instruction 1332.30, “Separation of Regular and Reserve Commissioned Officers” (December 11, 2008). Each of the military services has in turn issued regulations to implement Department of Defense guidance.

Department of Defense regulations governing the separation of members under 10 U.S.C.§ 654 preserve discretion within the military chain of command to retain members undercertain circumstances. “Enlisted Administrative Separations,” for example, states at Enclosure 3, paragraph 8.d (7)(c), page 21: “Nothing in these procedures . . . precludes retention of a Service member for a limited period of time in the interests of national security as authorized by the Secretary concerned.” Military commanders have significant discretion to decide whether they should initiate investigations or separation proceedings, or whether no action should be taken at all: “They shall examine the information and decide whether an inquiry is warranted or whether no action should be taken” (“Enlisted Administrative Separations,” Enclosure 5, paragraph 3.b, p. 39; “Separation of Regular and Reserve Commissioned Officers,” Enclosure 8, paragraph 3.b, p. 23).
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