Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

[Bounty]

Who's to say that the Tattooine pod races really proved human reflexive inferiority compared to aliens?

The ICS and, IIRC, the novelization explicitly mention this. Driving a pod requires either more eyes and limbs than you find on a human, or superhuman reflexes.

[Patroklos]

You guys realize there isn't anything wrong with racism in a multiple species enviroment, right? The problem arrises when measurable attributes are measured to be equal and they are treated differently based on that attribute regardless. There is no reason to treat a Bothan the same as a Mon Cal, it may very well be that despite both species being sentient one is measurably inferior in any number of ways (intelligence being the only one that matters politically). Are you going to let a color blind species fly starships?

[Samuel]

Are you going to let a color blind species fly starships?

Yes. Space does not happen to be an environment that needs the ability to see color.

(intelligence being the only one that matters politically).

Actually, no. A bottom level might matter, but aside from that, I don't see them using intelligence as a category. Otherwise they would ban stupid people from voting.

[Shroom Man 777]

Are you going to let a color blind species fly starships?

Yes. Space does not happen to be an environment that needs the ability to see color.

No. Color blinds can't tell the different air traffic control hologram designations and end up crashing into a space station or something. Just like pilots.

[open_sketchbook]

Because a colour-blind species totally wouldn't adopt their 25,000 year old supertechnology so they could read the fucking symbols, right?

[Patroklos]

If that were possible we would be doing it for pilots now. More to the point though, there are certain species that will never be good at doing certain things because of their characteristics (including humans). How the hell are you ever going to integrate a hive mind species into a democracy, for instance?

In reality many species will be entirely unable to even comprehend your nomal humanesque society. Alien does not simple refer to physical characteristics. In SW (and ST) "aliens" are really just humans with funky makeup, they think and act for all intents and purposes with the minds of humans. In universe this may be through self selection, species unable to integrate into the dominante human society simply being regected outright. However, the idea that every species left seamlessly fits into galactic society is actual racisit in and of itself.
"

[Samuel]

If that were possible we would be doing it for pilots now.

We are- the colorblind can drive cars for example.

More to the point though, there are certain species that will never be good at doing certain things because of their characteristics (including humans). How the hell are you ever going to integrate a hive mind species into a democracy, for instance?

One hive, one (billion) votes.

However, the idea that every species left seamlessly fits into galactic society is actual racisit in and of itself.

Why? There is a benefit of fitting in- even if it is hard (or nearly impossible) for your species you will make an effort, at the least to get access to technology and prevent any rivals from doing the same.

[Patroklos]

We are- the colorblind can drive cars for example.

Driving cars /= driving planes. We don't make up for the color blind's inability to drive cars though technology, the requirements to drive simply do not require color sight.

Again, if it is so simply why are there not color blind pilots right now?

Why? There is a benefit of fitting in- even if it is hard (or nearly impossible) for your species you will make an effort, at the least to get access to technology and prevent any rivals from doing the same.

I don't see what you are saying. The reason racism is stupid amongst humans is because we are all the same race, while there are variations in capability in general we are all qualitatively the same. Normally when something entirely out of the ordinary alters a characteristic qualitatively we most certainly do treat them differently when required. When dealing with actually different races with wildly differing cabilities amougst any number of characteristics it is stupid not to treat them differently because of them.

[Samuel]

Driving cars /= driving planes. We don't make up for the color blind's inability to drive cars though technology, the requirements to drive simply do not require color sight.

Again, if it is so simply why are there not color blind pilots right now?

Because flying planes is more complicated and we have very high standards. Given the low standards they have for starship ownership, that isn't a problem.

I don't see what you are saying. The reason racism is stupid amongst humans is because we are all the same race, while there are variations in capability in general we are all qualitatively the same. Normally when something entirely out of the ordinary alters a characteristic qualitatively we most certainly do treat them differently when required. When dealing with actually different races with wildly differing cabilities amougst any number of characteristics it is stupid not to treat them differently because of them.

We are- the colorblind can drive cars for example.

Driving cars /= driving planes. We don't make up for the color blind's inability to drive cars though technology, the requirements to drive simply do not require color sight.

Again, if it is so simply why are there not color blind pilots right now?

Why? There is a benefit of fitting in- even if it is hard (or nearly impossible) for your species you will make an effort, at the least to get access to technology and prevent any rivals from doing the same.

I don't see what you are saying. The reason racism is stupid amongst humans is because we are all the same race, while there are variations in capability in general we are all qualitatively the same. Normally when something entirely out of the ordinary alters a characteristic qualitatively we most certainly do treat them differently when required. When dealing with actually different races with wildly differing cabilities amougst any number of characteristics it is stupid not to treat them differently because of them.

Everyone is going to try to act like the baseline (human) because they don't want to draw attention to themselves. They are going to try hard to avoid bringing up things like force sensitivity, shapeshifting, etc- things that put them numbero uno on a galactic tyrants hit list.

[Junghalli]

If that were possible we would be doing it for pilots now.

Have a device worn like glasses that translate some wavelengths into other wavelengths. The green signal flares now look white to the red/green colorblind pilot and he can easily distinguish them from the red ones. We can't make that practical, people who build starships probably could.

Or you could just try to come up with a system that doesn't require being able to see in certain wavelengths. We don't change the entire color-coding signal system for colorblind pilots because the vast majority of people aren't colorblind so it just isn't worth it to overhaul the entire system to accomodate them. In a galaxy where large slices of the population probably won't see in the same wavelengths humans do it's more reasonable to expect some kind of compromise system to be developed.

[Bilbo]

The Airforce looking for pilot candidates is like a supermodel looking for date. There are so many more interested people that spots open that the Airforce can be very very picky. So saying you dont have colorblind pilots in the Airforce of aliens flying X-Wings does not tell you anything. Even the Rebel Alliance probably has more people to chose from than it has ships to fly.

Racism would be if we knew (which we dont I am making this up) that there were thousands of Wookies at Echo Base and yet only humans were deployed fighting the Empire, even though wookies operate in the cold better as Chewbacca proved by going out comfortably without the heavy gear everyone else needed.

As for podracing, I saw nothing in the movie that demonstrated reflexes or skills beyond what one would expect of a professionaly fighter pilot today. If the pods themselves require more limbs than a human has then that would be poor anti-human design.

[Samuel]

Racism would be if we knew (which we dont I am making this up) that there were thousands of Wookies at Echo Base and yet only humans were deployed fighting the Empire, even though wookies operate in the cold better as Chewbacca proved by going out comfortably without the heavy gear everyone else needed.

Why? Wouldn't it be racism if they only sent out the xenos to die?

[Dooey Jo]

Wait, so in this thread, some people argue that it would be impossible for a galactic civilisation, that has had superluminal spaceflight for more than 25 000 years, to make a flight control system that relies on something better than fucking colour-coded visual cues? And instead would revoke the space license from entire species?

[Patroklos]

Have a device worn like glasses that translate some wavelengths into other wavelengths. The green signal flares now look white to the red/green colorblind pilot and he can easily distinguish them from the red ones. We can't make that practical, people who build starships probably could.

What you just said makes no sense, it in no way compensates for the orignal color blindness.

Or you could just try to come up with a system that doesn't require being able to see in certain wavelengths. We don't change the entire color-coding signal system for colorblind pilots because the vast majority of people aren't colorblind so it just isn't worth it to overhaul the entire system to accomodate them. In a galaxy where large slices of the population probably won't see in the same wavelengths humans do it's more reasonable to expect some kind of compromise system to be developed.

Except that 1.) humans do make up the majority of the polulation and 2.) the rest of the population is composed of multiple thousand other sapient races. The standardization you speak of is impossible, which is why they just make anything not specifically tailored for one races us (early mon cal monitors) things human standard and call it a day.

[Patroklos]

The Airforce looking for pilot candidates is like a supermodel looking for date. There are so many more interested people that spots open that the Airforce can be very very picky. So saying you dont have colorblind pilots in the Airforce of aliens flying X-Wings does not tell you anything. Even the Rebel Alliance probably has more people to chose from than it has ships to fly.

You made this up, and it is stupid. No, the USAF requiring color sight is not some nice to have, it is a base requirement. Do you want your next airline pilot to know exactly what those runway lights mean, or have to guess based on other data? Exactly.

Wait, so in this thread, some people argue that it would be impossible for a galactic civilisation, that has had superluminal spaceflight for more than 25 000 years, to make a flight control system that relies on something better than fucking colour-coded visual cues? And instead would revoke the space license from entire species?

Nobody said that, color blindness/pilots were just a contemperary example. Regardless of your tech level there is a ceiling to what technology can accomplish at that tech level. Given an enviroment with races have wildly different characteristics it is impossible that some will be better or worse than others at using that tech as a matter of natural fact.

[Bilbo]

The Airforce looking for pilot candidates is like a supermodel looking for date. There are so many more interested people that spots open that the Airforce can be very very picky. So saying you dont have colorblind pilots in the Airforce of aliens flying X-Wings does not tell you anything. Even the Rebel Alliance probably has more people to chose from than it has ships to fly.

You made this up, and it is stupid. No, the USAF requiring color sight is not some nice to have, it is a base requirement. Do you want your next airline pilot to know exactly what those runway lights mean, or have to guess based on other data? Exactly.

And your a fucking moron. The whole point is that the Air Force has so many more people interested in being a pilot than they need that they can pick the best choices and do not need to design gear to compensate for things like color blindness.

Get a fucking brain idiot.

[Serafina]

This comparsion is stupid. While the US-Airforce may have an abundance of candidates to choose from, the Rebel alliance has not.
First, they are in an all-out war - not a situation where you can be picky.
Secound, they deployed Luke without any training at all - you do not do that if you have all the pilots you want. Saying that he has "force powers" does not help either - deploying a pilot just because he has piloted a cvilian aircraft is a clear sign of desperation.
Third, they recruited Lando Calrissian on the spot. While this may have been due to the need to get an additional ship (the
Falcon), they also gave him a command rank just because he had experience in giving orders. Again, thats not something you do if you are not desperate.

The rebel alliance is clearly taking every pilot it can get - a completly incomparable situation to the US-airforce.

[Junghalli]

What you just said makes no sense, it in no way compensates for the orignal color blindness.

Having a device that can render the color codes into something the colorblind person can readily recognize "in no way compensates" for the colorblindness? Please explain how that is the case.

[Patroklos]

And your a fucking moron. The whole point is that the Air Force has so many more people interested in being a pilot than they need that they can pick the best choices and do not need to design gear to compensate for things like color blindness.

Yes, that was your point, and it is both irrelevant and stupid. If the USAF ran out of eye sight acceptable recurits tomorrow they would not lower their eyesight standards, they would simply increase recruitment objectives.

You seem to be of the impression (I will assume this to attibute some intelligence to you) that the Air Force is creating eyesight requirements for the hell of it because they can. This is not the case. They have the eyesight requirements because thats what they need to yeild the desired performance. So even if we went with your hypothetical, that magically all color sight applicants dried up and there were no more to be had, the USAF might accept color blind applicants as a matter of necesity, but with the obvious understanding that doing so is sub optimal. This in fact proves the point that when options with a better characteristic are available (ie greater normal galactic society), it is still smart and normal to go with it.

You fail. miserably.

The rebel alliance is clearly taking every pilot it can get - a completly incomparable situation to the US-airforce.

The comparison is simply chosing one societal example of trait discrimination, only that retard above attempted to limit it to the USAF, civilian pilots require eye sight screening to get their license as well. This particular facet of the discussion was about race preference in galactic society in general.

Having a device that can render the color codes into something the colorblind person can readily recognize "in no way compensates" for the colorblindness? Please explain how that is the case.

That is not what you said. Your specific example stated you would convert green to white. That solves nothing, because now you need something to distiguish fake white from actual white. Thats what I was getting at.

[18-Till-I-Die]

There would also be differences in terms of mental capacity, you know.

It's nice to pretend like everyone is equal, but we know those pig guys are said, in CANON, to be dumb as a brick. There are also those...oh Christ I forget, "Marauders" or something who live near Endor and who mostly salvage all their stuff because they're stupid as fuck.

Also the hive mind situation is not just a non sequitur. How do you get them to vote democratically? How do you even explain the concept, they have no basic idea of what individuality means, it's like explaining what a hive mind feels like to a human being. We can maybe imagine it, but never understand the feeling.

Or what about the races who see through other means? Maybe they see in infrared, or maybe they survive by echolocation. Those are hardly some fantastical, impossible situations, there are some animals on Earth that are "blind" by human measure but "see" by other means perfectly fine. What if they have no natural tactile sense? What if they simply have shitty reflexes.

Also environment matters. A race from a planet with low gravity will have wildly different needs than one from a planet with very high gravity. A race from a planet where hydrogen is more common than oxygen will need special breathing gear. And all that's just to walk around...not even to fly a plane, to drive a tank, to function on a societal level. It's nice to say "25,000 year old supertech LOLZ" like that's an actual answer but if that were the case then there wouldn't even BE situations like the pig guys who ARE dumb as fuck, they'd all have been "uplifted" by now if it were actually a possibility. Like exactly ONE managed to become a pilot, that we know of. And he was some fluke experiment.

So all this "LOL supertech LOL" stuff is just as mindless as saying "Everyone is equal". Not only is it not true, it's a useless statement since even on a human level, everyone is not equal or of equal use. There are retarded people, cripples, blind and deaf people, all of whom have extremely difficult times adjusting to normal society and no it's not some beautifully tragic story of heroism in the face of adversity, it's just hard as all fuck and some can't even do it. They're invalids for life, or persona non grata to the rest of society stuck at home. And that's on a planet with precisely ONE sapient race, so everything we have is standardized. On a planet home to possibly millions of races like Coruscant any kind of standardization is laughable to even suggest. Or are you going to build special brain enhancing helmets for EVERY SINGLE pig guy? How about the people with bones like glass cause they came from a planet with extremely low gravity, you gonna' coat their room with repulsorlift devices to offset it? Mind you they have to walk around on a planet with gravity identical to ours.

[Samuel]

It's nice to pretend like everyone is equal, but we know those pig guys are said, in CANON, to be dumb as a brick. There are also those...oh Christ I forget, "Marauders" or something who live near Endor and who mostly salvage all their stuff because they're stupid as fuck.

If they are that dumb they possibly fall into nonsentient category.

Also the hive mind situation is not just a non sequitur. How do you get them to vote democratically? How do you even explain the concept, they have no basic idea of what individuality means, it's like explaining what a hive mind feels like to a human being. We can maybe imagine it, but never understand the feeling.

Than they vote as a block. Like unions.

Or what about the races who see through other means? Maybe they see in infrared, or maybe they survive by echolocation. Those are hardly some fantastical, impossible situations, there are some animals on Earth that are "blind" by human measure but "see" by other means perfectly fine. What if they have no natural tactile sense? What if they simply have shitty reflexes.

If they have no sense of touch, they are dead anyway- all others can be easily accomedated.

A race from a planet where hydrogen is more common than oxygen will need special breathing gear.

Or are you going to build special brain enhancing helmets for EVERY SINGLE pig guy?

Given they are too retarded to make a civilization, there are only a few million of them at best.

How about the people with bones like glass cause they came from a planet with extremely low gravity, you gonna' coat their room with repulsorlift devices to offset it?

They could do it- think about Corusant. They could make repulsarlifts to ease the strain on the buildings and prevent people from dying if they fall.

Or just engineer out weak bone structure.

That is not what you said. Your specific example stated you would convert green to white. That solves nothing, because now you need something to distiguish fake white from actual white. Thats what I was getting at.

If only you could pick a color that is uncommonly used...

[Patroklos]

If only you could pick a color that is uncommonly used...

"Hmmm.... Everyone, EVERYONE. Timeout, I need to figure out if this warning light is light fusha or medium plum."

Again, the point is not that color blindness can't be compensated for in SW, it is just an example of a technological limitation. As awesome as SW tech is, it also has examples of limitation.

[Samuel]

If only you could pick a color that is uncommonly used...

"Hmmm.... Everyone, EVERYONE. Timeout, I need to figure out if this warning light is light fusha or medium plum."

Again, the point is not that color blindness can't be compensated for in SW, it is just an example of a technological limitation. As awesome as SW tech is, it also has examples of limitation.

Mad Science- putting rods and cones into alien eyes since before the founding of the Republic.

[18-Till-I-Die]

So you're suggesting than an ENTIRE CIVILIZATION should genetically engineer themselves, rather extensively at that, to conform to Human standards.

Yeah that's not racist at all. (no offense, but I'm only half-joking, that's simply way too much to ask of an entire race)

Com one, is it really that bad to just accept that some species are different than other species in ways that are purely impossible to efficiently reconcile. I mean really, what is everyone trying to prove? When we get into the realm of "have surgery to fit in with us" how is that any LESS racist than just admitting they're a completely different speceis with wildly different capabilities and needs. Which is demonstrably TRUE!

[Samuel]

So you're suggesting than an ENTIRE CIVILIZATION should genetically engineer themselves, rather extensively at that, to conform to Human standards.

Yeah that's not racist at all. (no offense, but I'm only half-joking, that's simply way too much to ask of an entire race)

Com one, is it really that bad to just accept that some species are different than other species in ways that are purely impossible to efficiently reconcile. I mean really, what is everyone trying to prove? When we get into the realm of "have surgery to fit in with us" how is that any LESS racist than just admitting they're a completely different speceis with wildly different capabilities and needs. Which is demonstrably TRUE!

So how is it racist to genetically engineer an entrie species so that their bones won't crumble and kill them when subjected to more than x g's? Or make a profoundly retarded species less retarded?

It is making them better and able to interact with the rest of the galaxy.