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Anguirus wrote:I think a lot of the damage is done...I've been losing interest in Star Wars tie-in fiction in general since the NJO. Still, now that I know her bullshit is gone for good maybe I'll look into the Clone Wars stuff again.

It's too late for me. She killed any interest I might have had in the SW books. Any organization that would hire her in the first place and let her urinate all over the franchise in the first place is not worth my business.

SW book fans are like an abused spouse. She keeps making excuses for the abuse and coming back for more. Not me; I'm out.

Darth Wong wrote: It's too late for me. She killed any interest I might have had in the SW books. Any organization that would hire her in the first place and let her urinate all over the franchise in the first place is not worth my business.

SW book fans are like an abused spouse. She keeps making excuses for the abuse and coming back for more. Not me; I'm out.

Reading TFN, most of the book fans are happy that she's gone, but I sense an undercurrent of dissatisfaction with TCW cartoon infringing on their 'territory'.

What do you think about the cartoon, anyway? I started off not liking it much (not to mention finding the Trektard contradiction-mongering grating, but they do that all the time) but I've steadily grown pretty fond of it, a few reservations aside.

As for the books, I only read certain authors about certain topics. Post-RotJ EU is generally a cesspool of bullshit.

I don't really keep up with it and only watch when my nephews come over (I can't remember what channel it's on).

What exactly are the dumbasses at TFN bitching about when it comes to "continuity" and "canon"? I haven't seen anything in the four or five episodes I've watched that contradicts the movies. Are they on to something or are they just the usual fuckwits who think the EU authors know more about Star Wars than George Lucas?

Elfdart wrote:I don't really keep up with it and only watch when my nephews come over (I can't remember what channel it's on).

What exactly are the dumbasses at TFN bitching about when it comes to "continuity" and "canon"? I haven't seen anything in the four or five episodes I've watched that contradicts the movies. Are they on to something or are they just the usual fuckwits who think the EU authors know more about Star Wars than George Lucas?

Obviously they're talking about the various EU, not the films- most of the denizens of the Lit forums in TFN don't give a hoot-nanny about the films

Like the absence of Ashoka from the pre-existing EU entirely. Of course, in that regard, she's completely absent from RotS, so who knows how they're going to explain that one. She might be one of the Jedi who survives Order 66, and Darth Vader can kill her off during the Dark Times. That'd be cool.

Anyway, I'm excited to see how the cartoon will poop all over Traviss' (rather than the real) Mandalorians. Hey, I hate new material appearing and messing with my favorite parts (of the movies!) all the time, so it's nice to see it work for me.

Why would they need any kind of explanation for Ashoka's absence from ROTS? General Veers was a character in one of the movies and was never heard from again. They could just leaver her fate up in the air and if they were clever, they should do it that way.

Elfdart wrote:Why would they need any kind of explanation for Ashoka's absence from ROTS? General Veers was a character in one of the movies and was never heard from again. They could just leaver her fate up in the air and if they were clever, they should do it that way.

General Veers' wasn't Anakin Skywalker's apprentice. It's very odd to have Anakin and Obi-Wan walking around the whole movie with not a hint of a mention of the female sidekick who appeared to accompany Anakin in almost every adventure he had in the wars (as far as the cartoon is concerned) - so either she's dead by the time RotS rolls around (unlikely) or she goes off on her own and, as you say, her fate is left up in the air. Until some hack EU writer brings her back as still alive 40 years after RotJ.

Elfdart wrote:Why would they need any kind of explanation for Ashoka's absence from ROTS? General Veers was a character in one of the movies and was never heard from again. They could just leaver her fate up in the air and if they were clever, they should do it that way.

Veers was heard from again, he died in Operation Shadow Hand in one of the Emperor's "Let me win that worst strategic blunder award three times in a row" schemes.

He also shows up in some other EU stories.

Didn't Veers die in the novelisation of TESB? I would think that movies, followed by their novels and the radio dramas would be above the EU, though its been awhile and I have no idea what current cannon policy is at LFL.

Wing Commander MAD wrote:Didn't Veers die in the novelisation of TESB?

No, that was retconned to him losing his legs.

On the topic: about bloody time. That said...

this shows there probably there is a god.

Tanasinn wrote:

nightmare wrote:Too early for a happy dance. The known devil is better than the unknown one.

It would take her replacement to literally shit in a book and sell it to be much worse.

As far as authors go, I agree with you. But what are these "canon changes"? Is it actually "canon goes back to normal", or something else entirely? Plus, going from extraordinarily bad to say, just plain bad, still isn't good. So I'm not holding by breath just yet, even though Traviss leaving is certainly one big step in the right direction.

Sounds like the new season of the show has Mandos depicted as not being simple farmers with a new, cube-y capital and everything. I agree with the good riddance sentiment. Personally I think TCW has depicted a much, much better version of the Clone Wars than Traviss did, so it's not even replacing crap with crap as far as I'm concerned.

Darth Wong wrote:

Anguirus wrote:I think a lot of the damage is done...I've been losing interest in Star Wars tie-in fiction in general since the NJO. Still, now that I know her bullshit is gone for good maybe I'll look into the Clone Wars stuff again.

It's too late for me. She killed any interest I might have had in the SW books. Any organization that would hire her in the first place and let her urinate all over the franchise in the first place is not worth my business.

SW book fans are like an abused spouse. She keeps making excuses for the abuse and coming back for more. Not me; I'm out.

I collected the Bantam era Post-ROTJ books and some of them were pretty good (I loved The Thrawn Trilogy especially), but a lot were crap, and they were enough to put me off buying SW books. I heard bad things about the NJO, and when I finally read Star By Star and Destiny's Way I could barely stomach them. I was 'reading' the final book, Unifying Force, by glancing page by page and avoiding whole chunks of worthless text. Everything else hasn't interested me, or in the case of what I've heard about Karen Traviss' work, aggravated me. In particular the Legacy series which combined with the NJO series effectively nullified everything Luke, Leia and the Rebellion accomplished in the films. I read on SW wiki that Luke's an outcast from civilisation and Admiral Daala is now leader of the galaxy. WTF.

I suppose I should be grateful, in a way, as I now consider examples like the SW EU as a warning for how not to do things re books and franchises.

Vympel wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: It's too late for me. She killed any interest I might have had in the SW books. Any organization that would hire her in the first place and let her urinate all over the franchise in the first place is not worth my business.

SW book fans are like an abused spouse. She keeps making excuses for the abuse and coming back for more. Not me; I'm out.

Reading TFN, most of the book fans are happy that she's gone, but I sense an undercurrent of dissatisfaction with TCW cartoon infringing on their 'territory'.

I think Traviss's Revelation was the breaking point for most of the fandom. Even during the whole "3 million" debate, most fans on TFN knew her numbers were crap (a fact that the moderators there suppressed by deleting threads). But in general the board still liked her. SDN stood out from all the other places for calling Traviss on her crap and not making excuses for her. Then in Revelation, Traviss wrote an entire book which was over the top in how it bashed the Jedi while elevating her pet Mandos. Her bullshit had gone further than even what the fanboys on TFN could defend. They couldn't play dumb and say that the numbers didn't really matter (ignoring how Traviss twisted the SW universe to explain her numbers); her new book blatantly took a shit all over core of the saga.

I had left by then though. I knew for a while that the EU had a lot of crap, but I was always a fan. My interest peaked in the leadup to ROTS, when we had Curtis Saxton writing the ICS and that cool Clone Wars cartoon. Traviss's rise in the ranks of LFL did a lot to to turn me away after that. The synopsis of the Legacy of the Force series was the final straw for me. An entire nine-book arc blatantly rehashing the prequel trilogy, with Jacen taking Anakin's place and the Confederation standing in for the Confederacy? Fuck that.

Stofsk wrote:In particular the Legacy series which combined with the NJO series effectively nullified everything Luke, Leia and the Rebellion accomplished in the films. I read on SW wiki that Luke's an outcast from civilisation and Admiral Daala is now leader of the galaxy. WTF.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we have Traviss to thank for that as well?

It's that kind of crap that retroactively ruins previous EU for me, to the point where I don't even want to catch up on old books I haven't read from before the franchise completely went into the shitter. How can you invest yourself in a saga knowing that it turns out like that? I have my own "personal canon" now which are the movies and a few of the cartoons, games, and books. It's the only way I can enjoy SW now.

Thanks to this board, I never read any of Traviss' SW books....and the covers and story briefs on the books I didn't buy just didn't resonate with me. The only new SW book I have is Death Star, which was actually done pretty well IMO (and NOT by her!).

I'm also guessing that she'll make more dough writing Gears of War wank without all the opprobrium dumped on her by people who actually care about the SW franchise. Ironically, I have far more SW fan fiction (especially including Mike's and Sonnenberg's works) that is better written than most of the stuff I've seen in paperback. The franchise lost a great deal when Brian Daley died and Alan Dean Foster moved on to other projects. Now those two could have made the EU rock!

Stofsk wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: It's too late for me. She killed any interest I might have had in the SW books. Any organization that would hire her in the first place and let her urinate all over the franchise in the first place is not worth my business.

SW book fans are like an abused spouse. She keeps making excuses for the abuse and coming back for more. Not me; I'm out.

I collected the Bantam era Post-ROTJ books and some of them were pretty good (I loved The Thrawn Trilogy especially), but a lot were crap, and they were enough to put me off buying SW books. I heard bad things about the NJO, and when I finally read Star By Star and Destiny's Way I could barely stomach them. I was 'reading' the final book, Unifying Force, by glancing page by page and avoiding whole chunks of worthless text. Everything else hasn't interested me, or in the case of what I've heard about Karen Traviss' work, aggravated me. In particular the Legacy series which combined with the NJO series effectively nullified everything Luke, Leia and the Rebellion accomplished in the films. I read on SW wiki that Luke's an outcast from civilisation and Admiral Daala is now leader of the galaxy. WTF.

I suppose I should be grateful, in a way, as I now consider examples like the SW EU as a warning for how not to do things re books and franchises.

When you have so many add-ons written by so many different people, you will inevitably have a total clusterfuck. As even more writers create even more add-ons to the previous ones, the clusterfuck grows exponentially. Take a character as simple as Chewbacca: he's the burly sidekick (Little John to Han's Robin Hood) and the lovable dog (Rin Tin Tin) rolled into one. We're not talking about a complex figure like Michael Corleone here, but Chewbacca -surely this is one character even the most inept hack of a guest writer couldn't fuck up...

And yet that's exactly what they did -and this is one clusterfuck that you can't blame on Karen Traviss. Instead of buddies, Han and Chewie are like thegns in Beowulf with all this "code of honor" wank. Chewbacca is given retractable claws and when it's pointed out that he never claws the bad guys in the movies, they compound this bit of stupidity with even more "code of honor" wank (he had the claws all along, but doesn't use them -I give up). As newer writers are brought in, this will only get worse.

Traviss is remarkable (aside from being a thin-skinned bullshitter) only in that she fucked up the clonetroopers and Boba Fett -among the only characters less complex than Chewbacca.

The sprawling mess that is the EU is a boil on the franchise that should have been lanced more than a decade ago. The idea that a giant Easter Bunny-looking assassin with a blaster rifle from a shitty comic book is part of Star Wars chaps my ass like nothing else.

I share the views of Randy Stradley (Dark Horse comics head honch) - namely there needs to be a big Biblical style conclave held where everyone gets together to decide what stays, and what worthless stupid bullshit doesn't.

Stradley wrote:For my own part, I don't give a rat's a**, uh, er, a flying f***, well, I mean, I can't really get very excited about maintaining a continuity that I feel is not only riddled with errors and contradictions, but also includes so many really silly (and I mean really, truly stupid and awful) stories (sorry, that's just my opinion).

More Stradley wrote:Not necessarily. I just think that stories which don’t fit the “facts”-- either because the facts have changed with the release of the Prequel Trilogy, or because they just never made much sense in relation to the reality portrayed in the films -- should be jettisoned. However, before the fanboys start jumping, let me quickly point out that what I want has nothing whatsoever with how LF deals with its continuity.

I’m a firm believer of not mentioning inconvenient events or “facts” from the EU. Not contradicting them, but just not letting them interfere with the telling of a good story. For instance, I have no problem with fans wanting to believe that a species of big green bunny rabbits exists in the same galaxy as Luke, Leia, and the others, but I don’t have to allow them in our comics.

Rabid inclusionist idiocy it what sees stuff like "Glove of Vader" and "Luke fighting and beating Vader in Splinter of the Mind's Eye, before TESB" get treated as canonical.

The reason the EU has become a huge clusterfuck is because the people who control continuity are doing it bass-ackwards. They don't exert editorial control before whatever shit is being written is published, they let all manner of nonsense through the doors then construct contrived rationalisations for the mess of contradictions and inanity that results, attempting to maintain the fiction that not a single source could be wrong.

And that's just continuity. Think there's concern for the actual integrity of the universe? Not at all. These are the geniuses who thought Kevin J Anderson's story about IG-88 being the true threat of the Death Star II (Palpatine vs malfunctioning elevator door! I AM NOT JOKING) was a good idea. NO ONE said "what? that's fucking stupid. Get the hell out of here!"

Of course they saw no problem with Karen Traviss' parade of garbage - like Clones carriying out Order 66 not because it was their entire purpose for existing, but because of a reasoned thought process? Get fucked.

Vympel wrote:
Of course they saw no problem with Karen Traviss' parade of garbage - like Clones carriying out Order 66 not because it was their entire purpose for existing, but because of a reasoned thought process? Get fucked.

Wait...

Wait...what?

Hold it, back that ass up, where the fuck did THAT shit come from? What reasoned thought process? How does that work? They're supposed to be bred for obedience, how the fuck do they DECIDE to commit fucking genocide unilaterally? What book was that in? And more so what was the point of Order 66 then? Christ that opens so many plot holes I can't even process them all rationally.

And for the record, I'm a movie purist, if it was never released in theaters with George Lucas' name on it then fuck that noise.

Wait...

Wait...what?

Hold it, back that ass up, where the fuck did THAT shit come from? What reasoned thought process? How does that work? They're supposed to be bred for obedience, how the fuck do they DECIDE to commit fucking genocide unilaterally? What book was that in? And more so what was the point of Order 66 then? Christ that opens so many plot holes I can't even process them all rationally.

No, what I meant to say instead of the obvious telegraphing of the movie, i.e.

"EXECUTE ORDER 66."

"YES/ IT WILL BE DONE MY LORD." (because, you know, Supreme Chancellors go by the title "my Lord" just like SITH, and every Clone Commander in the galaxy just happens to respond with same damn words.)

You have Clones sitting there justifying their behavior in her latest shit (I think it was the Order 66 novel) novel by going on about how they're legal orders and all sorts of other bollocks. I.e. they weren't obeying that order because they were bred to obey that order, but because they're all their own persons and are following orders just like any other soldier.

For more detail:-

Link

"I've never disobeyed an order," said the ARC captain. Zey didn't seem to have the strength to turn and look at his former aide, just shutting his eyes as if he was waiting for the coup de grâce. "What am I supposed to do? Pick and choose? That's the irony. The Jedi thought we were excellent troops because we're so disciplined and we obey orders, but when we obey all orders--and they're lawful orders, remember--then we've betrayed them. Can't have it both ways, General."

As General Fel put it so eloquently, this is precisely the reasoning of a camp guard at Auschwitz. Notice I didn't say a well reasoned thought process. But as noted, this absurd monologue shouldn't even exist at all. It's a farce.

No, it's a travissty.

Yeah Karen cause that doesn't conflict the movies at all! /sarcasm

It's almost fascinating, it's so out of touch with the movies, did she even watch them? I'd love to ask her "So like, when was all this happening, in the five or six seconds after they got Order 66 and they opened fire on the Jedi? Cause I mean they must talk fast as hell, to have that whole discussion."

Also those have to be the more hamfisted lines I've ever seen written. He literally says what she wants the reader to think. Wow, ok.

Did I mention I'm a movie purist? Cause I want everyone to know, I never touched the fucking EU, I never subsidized this crap.

I only support authors who aren't innumerate hacks, so my hands are clean.

Jim Raynor wrote:
Then in Revelation, Traviss wrote an entire book which was over the top in how it bashed the Jedi while elevating her pet Mandos. Her bullshit had gone further than even what the fanboys on TFN could defend.

Ok, I must be a glutton for punishment, but how did she achieve this in Revelation? I mean what was so offensive about the book? Keep in mind that I haven't been following this too much, I am aware of her stupid conspiracy between Jedi and Sith or something to keep the clone wars going and her stupid small numbers of clone troopers, but what else has she done, besides make Mandalorians uber.

Was that the one where the whole book was some Clones walking around in a factory and talking about how shitty the droids were, how few they had, and how the Jedi and Paps were basically in open alliance with one another? And then they sabotage the droids to make them brittle and said no one ever checks them and the Jedi know that they're shitty but it's all a feint or something?

I remember a huge outcry around here for that one, but I don't know if that was elsewhere too.

mr friendly guy wrote: Ok, I must be a glutton for punishment, but how did she achieve this in Revelation? I mean what was so offensive about the book? Keep in mind that I haven't been following this too much, I am aware of her stupid conspiracy between Jedi and Sith or something to keep the clone wars going and her stupid small numbers of clone troopers, but what else has she done, besides make Mandalorians uber.

YodaKenobi's famous review of Revelation, on TFN (depending on your browser, you may have to go back or forward until you find it)

It's a pretty comprehensive slam on the entire rotten screed. It was definitely the point, online in any event, where visible fan opinion took a turn for the negative and stayed that way.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Was that the one where the whole book was some Clones walking around in a factory and talking about how shitty the droids were, how few they had, and how the Jedi and Paps were basically in open alliance with one another? And then they sabotage the droids to make them brittle and said no one ever checks them and the Jedi know that they're shitty but it's all a feint or something?

I remember a huge outcry around here for that one, but I don't know if that was elsewhere too.

That was her pathetic short story, Odds.

Vympel wrote:

mr friendly guy wrote: Ok, I must be a glutton for punishment, but how did she achieve this in Revelation? I mean what was so offensive about the book? Keep in mind that I haven't been following this too much, I am aware of her stupid conspiracy between Jedi and Sith or something to keep the clone wars going and her stupid small numbers of clone troopers, but what else has she done, besides make Mandalorians uber.

YodaKenobi's famous review of Revelation, on TFN (depending on your browser, you may have to go back or forward until you find it)

It's a pretty comprehensive slam on the entire rotten screed. It was definitely the point, online in any event, where visible fan opinion took a turn for the negative and stayed that way.

Ouch. That review just hurts. So when will someone do a Mando bashing book to balance out that travesty.