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DaveJB wrote:it would combine with the already limited exit path from the wormhole and the obstacle of a heavily fortified space station (possibly a fleet as well) to make getting their forces into Federation space a serious problem for the Dominion.

Ah, but you can be sure that if Berman had developed a direct sequel to Voyager instead of making Enterprise a prequel, the Dominion would have allied with the Borg and gotten access to their subspace conduit technology. And then Our Brave Heroes would have faced seemingly-unstoppable Borg Founders.

DaveJB wrote:

Bilbo wrote:Go check the main website. The number of mines, how quickly they can replace, and how large an area they cover, all mean that they are really nothing more than a bluff.

You'd better show me which page you're talking about, because the only one I can find says that they wouldn't be effective against the Empire; it says nothing about the Dominion.

Anyway, like I said above, if the Dominion could have just brute-forced their way through the minefield without losing too many ships, they would have just done that. A civilisation that mass-produces disposable warriors and warships isn't going to sit at the GQ entrance of the wormhole for three months just because they were afraid of the consequences of running into the Federation's big bad minefield - the casualties it would have caused were obviously too much for the Dominion's liking, and that was when they controlled the AQ entrance. The situation would likely be a whole lot worse for them if it was the Federation in control.

The main item of importance is the fact that the detonation of a mere 20 mines will open a gap. Further the detonation of 2500 will cause exceed the replacement ability of the system. Either of these could be easily overwelmed by the Dominion using their small wasrships. Hell you dont even need to do that. Throw asteroids through the wormhole with nukes on them to detonate on the other side. This would be incredibly cheap and allow you to quickly swamp the system far beyond its ability to replace. Instead the Dominion did nothing from its side and we had to wait for a lame technobabble solution on the AQ side.

Bilbo wrote:The main item of importance is the fact that the detonation of a mere 20 mines will open a gap. Further the detonation of 2500 will cause exceed the replacement ability of the system.

According to the non-canon DS9 tech manual, which in any case the Dominion don't have access to.

Throw asteroids through the wormhole with nukes on them to detonate on the other side.

Is there any evidence that unpowered objects can make it through the wormhole? It's not a hospitable environment in there, there are multiple singularities for a start.

Regardless, it is hardly a stretch to imagine that the mines have targeting sensors that will not be fooled by anything less than a warp-capable ship. Even contemporary naval mines come with a variety of cunning fuses, some capable of identifying specific types of ship and waiting for the optimum time to strike.

Instead the Dominion did nothing from its side and we had to wait for a lame technobabble solution on the AQ side.

You don't know that. We didn't see what the Dominion were doing the whole time; we just know that they were working feverishly on the problem. For all you know, the asteroid trick was the first thing Gul Dukat tried, only to watch them sail unmolested through the mined area. They most likely did blown up a few attack ships trying to run the blockade, and gave up without knowing how close to breeching the minefield they got.

Starglider wrote:

Bilbo wrote:The main item of importance is the fact that the detonation of a mere 20 mines will open a gap. Further the detonation of 2500 will cause exceed the replacement ability of the system.

According to the non-canon DS9 tech manual, which in any case the Dominion don't have access to.

Throw asteroids through the wormhole with nukes on them to detonate on the other side.

Is there any evidence that unpowered objects can make it through the wormhole? It's not a hospitable environment in there, there are multiple singularities for a start.

Regardless, it is hardly a stretch to imagine that the mines have targeting sensors that will not be fooled by anything less than a warp-capable ship. Even contemporary naval mines come with a variety of cunning fuses, some capable of identifying specific types of ship and waiting for the optimum time to strike.

Instead the Dominion did nothing from its side and we had to wait for a lame technobabble solution on the AQ side.

You don't know that. We didn't see what the Dominion were doing the whole time; we just know that they were working feverishly on the problem. For all you know, the asteroid trick was the first thing Gul Dukat tried, only to watch them sail unmolested through the mined area. They most likely did blown up a few attack ships trying to run the blockade, and gave up without knowing how close to breeching the minefield they got.

First, we know unpowered objects can go through the wormhole since there was an entire episode about a comet possibly going through and destroying the wormhole.

Second, the Dominion had no problem using suicide ships in battle, so why would they care about spending more taking out the minefield. Hell of the Dominion was slighly smart they would do what most modern navies do to guaruntee mine removal. They take a ship, fill it to the brim with boyant material and just let it set the mines off until the ship sinks. The Dominion could do the same with a freighter obscenely overloaded with shield generators and just sail it into the field.

Also it doesnt matter if the mines will respond to asteroids or not. The idea is you load asteroids with cheap nukes, float them into the minefield and detonate them to blow holes in the field.

Basically the Dominion were a bunch of complete donkeys when it came to dealing with the mines.

Starglider wrote:Regardless, it is hardly a stretch to imagine that the mines have targeting sensors that will not be fooled by anything less than a warp-capable ship. Even contemporary naval mines come with a variety of cunning fuses, some capable of identifying specific types of ship and waiting for the optimum time to strike.

So, why don't build another missile in style of the Dreadnought, with a theorical yield of 42960 megatons (it carried 1000 kg of matter and 1000 of antimatter, so...), and detonate it in the approximate location of the minefield? I know that the reaction will be less than optimal, but the explosion should be enough to at least open a hole in the minefield, if not destroy it outright, and this is DEFINITELY in the capabilities of the Cardassians.
Or, if we don't want to rebuild that big missile, why don't detonate photorps or nukes in the location of the minefield?

lord Martiya wrote:

Starglider wrote:Regardless, it is hardly a stretch to imagine that the mines have targeting sensors that will not be fooled by anything less than a warp-capable ship. Even contemporary naval mines come with a variety of cunning fuses, some capable of identifying specific types of ship and waiting for the optimum time to strike.

So, why don't build another missile in style of the Dreadnought, with a theorical yield of 42960 megatons (it carried 1000 kg of matter and 1000 of antimatter, so...), and detonate it in the approximate location of the minefield? I know that the reaction will be less than optimal, but the explosion should be enough to at least open a hole in the minefield, if not destroy it outright, and this is DEFINITELY in the capabilities of the Cardassians.
Or, if we don't want to rebuild that big missile, why don't detonate photorps or nukes in the location of the minefield?

From what I see of the Dominion war, it looks like the writers didn't fully comprehend the power that they threw at the AQ and when they realized that there was little chance of victory they used their super writing powers to even the field. Why didn't the minefield get cleared? Because if it had then the AQ would have been screwed. Therefore, the minefield worked even though it shouldn't have. We have seen the Dominion troops walk through a minefield without hesitation, their ships suicide into other ships, and the whole time think it was an honor. The only reason they didn't do so at the wormhole was because it would cause them to win the war and end the ratings.

was because it would cause them to win the war and end the ratings.

There are shows that, when the bad guys are unbeatable, it is actually true. Is there any reason they couldn't have done that for DS9 aside from the fact that would require alot of effort and significantly change the flavor of the series?

That'd be the part where the audience likely didn't WANT the Dominion to win? For BSG/nBSG (the only show I can think off offhand that had the bad guys winning) that was a done deal. There was no way AROUND the bad guys winning, because that ALREADY HAPPENED. Both BSGs were about dealing with the aftermath of it. DS9 was not.

Starglider wrote:Is there any evidence that unpowered objects can make it through the wormhole? It's not a hospitable environment in there, there are multiple singularities for a start.

A large asteroid passed through the wormhole in the episode Destiny.

I couldn't see the Dominion trying for another all out invasion like they did before. They had the help of a local power as well as a divided AQ, and still couldn't quite win. I imagine they'd try something different the second time out.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:

Starglider wrote:Is there any evidence that unpowered objects can make it through the wormhole? It's not a hospitable environment in there, there are multiple singularities for a start.

A large asteroid passed through the wormhole in the episode Destiny.

Don't forget Akorem Laam's solar sailing ship that just drifted in there one day.

I just re-read the main page about the mines. The DS9 TM states:

The explosive system consists of a stripped-down standard photon torpedo warhead and includes only the central combiner tank into which the cryogenic deuterium and antideuterium have been premixed

How many of these would be necessary to drop a ship's shields, then destroy the ship? IIRC it takes multiple photorps to destroy a Galor after it's shields are down. If it takes 8 mines to destroy a single ship, asuming none are destroyed before impact, then it would only take 4 ships to open a gap, or 313 to deplete the fields supply of replicator materials.

"Station-keeping thrusters were cannibalized from a class-1 instrumented probe and connected to a single cold-gas nitrogen pressure tank. Modulation of the warhead magnetic field was also used to keep the mines aligned within a four-frequency icosahedron geodesic sphere. A neutrino source counter was incorporated into the sensor package to keep the mines at a uniform distance from the wormhole opening

this seams to me to be saying that the mines are not capable of rapid acceleration. If that is the case it should be possible to clear a corridor suffering only the initial casualties to create the 20 mine gap then activating transporter inhibitor fields to prevent mines replicating in the fleet formation. the corridor can then be created using torpedo fire or what not. The Dominion is experienced with mine warfare, and should be at least familiar with the concept of creating corridors through minefields.

Batman wrote:That'd be the part where the audience likely didn't WANT the Dominion to win? For BSG/nBSG (the only show I can think off offhand that had the bad guys winning) that was a done deal. There was no way AROUND the bad guys winning, because that ALREADY HAPPENED. Both BSGs were about dealing with the aftermath of it. DS9 was not.

Samuel wrote:

was because it would cause them to win the war and end the ratings.

There are shows that, when the bad guys are unbeatable, it is actually true. Is there any reason they couldn't have done that for DS9 aside from the fact that would require alot of effort and significantly change the flavor of the series?

I liked Star Trek specifically because it was not grimdark and nBSG because it was. I understand that the Dominion War ended the way it did to preserve the spirit of the show. I just wish more thought had been put into it. Like perhaps a final sacrifice from Sisko to collapse the wormhole, an offer of amnesty to the Cardasians in return for them joining the alliance and an AQ fleet victory over the Dominion Remnant Fleet. Throw in some speeches from the main cast and some French horns and there you go. The Federation ideals of duty and sacrifice for the greater good are maintained and balance is restored. This also ends the possibility of re-invasion for at least 60+ years, unless the Dominion gets slipstream tech. It would have been a good ending to the series I think.

NecronLord wrote:In short, there's no justification for your assumption that because one set of "mortals" can tell that a "god" is building an anti-god weapon, they too can build an anti "god" weapon if they just put their minds to it.

Right.

Oh, added bonus, there's no garuntee that with the Prophets gone, the Celestial Temple will remain intact. That'd be rather an own goal for a Dominion war strategy now wouldn't it?

Again it was mundane technology. They changed the frequencies of existing deflector on DS9 to allow it to emit chroniton particles. Rom was aware that chroniton particles damage "temporal beings" therefore this wasn't classified information. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume Dominion could use their existing ships and modify their deflector frequencies. Just because it can be used to kill wormhole aliens doesn't somehow retroactively make the technology beyond our comprehension.
As for whether the Wormhole will remain intact, there is information that I'm aware of that suggests it will collapse.

DaveJB wrote:You'd better show me which page you're talking about, because the only one I can find says that they wouldn't be effective against the Empire; it says nothing about the Dominion.

Anyway, like I said above, if the Dominion could have just brute-forced their way through the minefield without losing too many ships, they would have just done that. A civilisation that mass-produces disposable warriors and warships isn't going to sit at the GQ entrance of the wormhole for three months just because they were afraid of the consequences of running into the Federation's big bad minefield - the casualties it would have caused were obviously too much for the Dominion's liking, and that was when they controlled the AQ entrance. The situation would likely be a whole lot worse for them if it was the Federation in control.

But there is no logical reason why Dominion simply couldn't fire torpedoes all around the Wormhole detonating them and taking the mines with them as one example. It would be messy and inefficient but ultimately it would get the job done. The only, in universe, explanation I can think of is that Dukat obstructed the initiative to use brute force in order to be the one who took down the field with his fancy plan. And just like with the plan to kill the Prophets we again have modifications to the deflector beam as weapon against the mines. This is that same old deflector used by an aging mining station and abandoned by Cardassians. Dominion was allied with Cardassians and occupied the station itself and was present when Dukat came up with the plan in fact it is entirely possible Dominion scientists also worked on the solution. This technology also should be easily replicable in the Dominion.

Gandalf wrote:I couldn't see the Dominion trying for another all out invasion like they did before. They had the help of a local power as well as a divided AQ, and still couldn't quite win. I imagine they'd try something different the second time out.

Dominion expeditionary forces allied with Cardassian Union couldn't win. It would be like British forces at Dunquerke allying themselves with France after it's military was smashed by Germans the way Cardassia was smashed by Klingons and then proceeding to lay the smackdown on the combined forces of Germany and Russia.

Why are we assuming the Dominion had large numbers of unused vessels just hanging around in the Delta quadrant?

Maybe because the Dominion, at least according to the FF, encompassed hundred of planets and the Founders are notorious paranoids and so having many more ships than necessary would make sense for them? Specially if they were building up for a war?

Plus, it's in the Dominions own 'at-home' advantage to have a massive fleeet.

Consider;

The Dominion is a dictatorship. They can't afford to show any signs of weakness.

If a planet rebels, they need to crush it, and quickly. Otherwise, other systems may rebel.

If a sector rebels, they need to crush it, and quickly. Otherwise, other systems may rebel.

If they are invaded, they need to crush the invasion (and possibly launch a counter invasion), and quickly.

If they appear week or negligient, a system or more could rebel.

The best way to keep everyone in line, therefore, is with constant patrols. This means lots and lots of ships.

In effect, they need at LEAST 1 attack ship per system. Possibly more. Probably at least 3 ships, possible a whole squadron.

And that's just for 'urban pacificiation' (Interstellar beat cop work).

Then you need patrols to show those 3 ships have lots of friends.

Then you have ships that actually do stuff beyond just 'waving the flag'

Then you have border patrols.

Then you have reserve fleets.

Then, the dominion might have a 'rescue/relief' fleet (after all, the best way to keep member in line besides military force is to show you care). Odds are, IF they do, it's armed.

To be fair on that Sol, propoganda could probably go a long way in making a false image of how the Dominion are doing. I mean a horrible defeat can be casted off as a great victory and a rebellion could be classed as a terrorist action. It could be like WW2 Japan where losses were not addmitted so that the Japanese people would think they were winning.

One thing to consider is that, according to Weyoun, Dominion is 2000 years old. This makes it not at all like current dictatorships such as North Korea which, as a regime, existed for about 60 years. Dominion is obviously much more stable so I don't think we should automatically assume its member worlds are all secretly waiting for the slightest sign of weakness to start a rebellion.
Just because they don't hold elections every 4 years doesn't mean that average Dominion citizen won't feel patriotism for something he was born into and existed for 2000 years.

As for how many ships they had left in Gamma Quadrant Federation-Klingon alliance was no match for the Dominion even without additional 2800 ships that were due to arrive in "Sacrifice of Angels". There was no reason for the Dominion to leave its territory undefended by emptying itself of ships at that point.

Finally as I already noted a large Dominion fleet, still considered a great threat to Federation-Klingon-Romulan alliance, was allowed to return back into the Gamma Quadrant. That should be enough to contain any rebellions if they flare up. In the meantime the undamaged Dominion industry can work on rebuilding the fleet.

If a dictatorship exists long enough, it turns into something else - Monarchy, Aristocracy or Feudalism.

The Dominion is more of a feudal Monarchy (rule by birthright, but without one central ruler) with some elements of Aristocracy.

Serafina wrote:If a dictatorship exists long enough, it turns into something else - Monarchy, Aristocracy or Feudalism.

The Dominion is more of a feudal Monarchy (rule by birthright, but without one central ruler) with some elements of Aristocracy.

The most correct term for the Dominion political system would be oligarchy, or even more accurately, a speciesist oligarchy. It has some features of feudalism, but not enough to call it feudal. In actuality it resembles a modern federation more than a feudal state. The member races are obviously free to conduct their daily lives relatively freely as long as they don't contest the overall leadership of the Founders and the Vorta (some do not seem to know much about the Founders) and don't try to engage in non-sanctioned political or economic dealings with non-member species. Most likely they are also forbidden to maintain significant military forces independent of the Jem'Hadar and Vorta, even if that was never explicitly mentioned.

Nevertlehess, it appears that being a Dominion member might not be that terrible. They obviously have to pay taxes to the Dominion, but the Jem'Hadar maintains peace and order (with an iron fist of course) among the member races and they don't even have to provide soldiers for the Dominion military. Since the Dominion is so large one could imagine that it provides a wealth of opportunities for internal trade and business.

I'm not sure if the show indicated it but I remember the novelization to "The Search" and other sources indicated the Dominion engaged in some control over its "member" races, encouraging a regimented and orderly society.

The Dominion's day-to-day interactions with various races probably depended on a case-by-case basis, getting a heavy hand or a light one as needed. At most extreme, it's entirely possible the Founders encouraged their subjects to worship them, but they may have also gone the Cyrus route and simply left local religion alone or rather co-opted it. This would all fit with the concept that Moore, Ira Behr, and the DS9 producers had in mind for the Dominion, as being the "anti-Federation".

Steve wrote:I'm not sure if the show indicated it but I remember the novelization to "The Search" and other sources indicated the Dominion engaged in some control over its "member" races, encouraging a regimented and orderly society.

The Dominion's day-to-day interactions with various races probably depended on a case-by-case basis, getting a heavy hand or a light one as needed. At most extreme, it's entirely possible the Founders encouraged their subjects to worship them, but they may have also gone the Cyrus route and simply left local religion alone or rather co-opted it. This would all fit with the concept that Moore, Ira Behr, and the DS9 producers had in mind for the Dominion, as being the "anti-Federation".

In "The Search" pt 1 the Dominion members the Ferengi were in trade with seemed to have no interaction with the upper-echelons of the Dominion. All they directed Sisko and company to was a relay station where all Dominion related communications were sent. The one member of this race seemed nonchalant over whether the Founders even existed, and just noted his policy was do what the Vorta say, and you do it. Otherwise the Jem'Hadar get sent in "and then you die".

That race probably just conducted its business with other races in the region. Occasionally had to give taxes to the Dominion, and "jump" when the Vorta said so. Other than that it seemed like an off-hand relationship. Further, it seemed the Vorta and Jem'Hadar ruled under a sort of Mandate of Heaven. The Founders being "God" and an oligarchy/military force operated in its stead.

On another note, I always had the impression that the Wormhole was on the fringes of Dominion space as it took them two seasons to start shit with the Federation.

Finally, was it ever really stated why the heck Odo was sent out into space? I know there was the rosy version the Founders gave, before it was revealed who they were in "The Search" pt 2 (to expand their knowledge, despite being isolated). But what was the real purpose? A fifth column on newly discovered worlds, intended to pave the way for eventual Dominion takeover?

One idea the writers had that never made it on screen, was that the Dominion already knew about the Federation, before the wormhole was even discovered.

They were preparing for an inevitable war that would take place in a few centuries, but the discovery of the wormhole bought the confrontation that much sooner.

I believe that's from interviews from Ira Behr and such, yes. The Dominion knew the Federation existed on the other end of the galaxy and would have to be dealt with in a few centuries when better methods of warp travel were discovered. Then the wormhole was discovered in what was likely space just beyond the Dominion frontier and their entire timetable got thrown out of whack.

As for Odo, I think the Founder idea was to genuinely learn about the rest of the universe.... until they could conquer it of course.

Lord MJ wrote:One idea the writers had that never made it on screen, was that the Dominion already knew about the Federation, before the wormhole was even discovered.

They were preparing for an inevitable war that would take place in a few centuries, but the discovery of the wormhole bought the confrontation that much sooner.

That actually makes a bunch of sense, considering that they managed to find another infant changeling not too far away from where they found Odo.

Steve wrote:As for Odo, I think the Founder idea was to genuinely learn about the rest of the universe.... until they could conquer it of course.

So... spies?

There's no reason it couldn't be both, though. Genuinely wanting to learn about a culture is not incompatible with wanting to conquer it.

That was actually my point. It would also give them an idea of how to best conquer that culture and control it.