Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

Post by ThomasP »

Ford Prefect wrote:
ThomasP wrote:That's one reason I like this site and others like the Atomic Rocket pages, because they ground things in rationalism and real numbers.
Yeah, but this site was founded on rational analysis of Star Wars which, though I enjoy it, cannot really be said to be scientifically plausible. I know there's a quote from Lucas about him wanting to make sure Star Wars is scientifically rigourous despite being set in another galaxy xyz thousand of years ago, but the actual film has Star Destroyers pulling over a thousand gees in acceleration, artificial gravity and other stuff which is practically magic. The films are quite consistent with each other though, which is arguably much more important that how outright plausible the setting is.
Of course, and I've got no problem with that kind of approach at all. As you said, the internal consistency is much more important than diamond-hard realism.

But even the main page here, or things like Saxton's pages, are making the attempt to rationally examine the handwaving and derive numbers for it.

I just have trouble seeing why people that seem so hostile to that kind of approach would be so concerned about writing in a genre that's pretty much built on that kind of world-building.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

Post by Batman »

ThomasP wrote: I just have trouble seeing why people that seem so hostile to that kind of approach would be so concerned about writing in a genre that's pretty much built on that kind of world-building.
That'd be the part where the genre ISN'T built on it. SciFi has always been 'make up the rules that allow you to tell the story you want to tell'. Every once in a while people like Heinlein allowed real world physics to influence those rules.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

Post by fgalkin »

Stark wrote:To answer the OP; because 'science fiction' is fantasy with lasers. Sorry if you heard otherwise.
There are two types of attitudes among writers, even in SW. One one hand you have this site, and the Saxtonites. On the other, you have Karen Traviss.

There is "fantasy with lasers", and then there is downright hostility to science and all things logical. Excellent writers look to science for inspiration (moving beyond humanoid aliens and rayguns). Good writers, at the least, know their limitations and try to introduce some kind of consistency to their worlds, no matter how soft and squishy they may be. Bad writers insist that they don't need to, because it stifles their "creativity", or, rather, exposes the lack thereof.

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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

Post by Stark »

Oh yeah, I'm just saying that in general, scifi (especially mass-market scifi) isn't about accuracy or science or anything like that, it's about the same wish-fulfillment that fantasy is about. That could even be why most scifi readers are hostile to actually examining the sources; because they're jut pulpy detective or romance novels with rayguns. :)

Someone shoudl quote ACC so that we all remember that scifi and magic are the same, thus ANYTHING GOES.

Like in Greg Bear novels. :)
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

Post by Zixinus »

I think its pretty much they don't want to bother to make an effort to even fake science well enough, never mind make it look realistic. Science is something that requires a little effort, particularly the physics parts because it involves numbers.

Example: Learning about nautical traditions is easy, you just have to carve your way trough a book of "Ye Oldie Nautical Traditions" while spaceship design goes trough the motions of "bah, its all based on physics and stuff I don't understand and I don't have time to" so they'll go and make a weird tank instead. After all, its simpler and who cares? Or "its only the science nerds that give a shit and they're very few people, no one will notice" and then the author proceeds to talk about a supernova that destroys a galaxy.

You can get away with awful science in good stories. You can even get away with using very plot-convenient scientific and engineering principles in otherwise pretty bad science. It's not just consistency, but knowing where you can skip over the holes. The science used is not so much important as the people characters around the events. If you can keep them in tag, they'll force the story to make at least enough sense to be enjoyable to read, despite the occasional brain haemorrhage.

That's why I'm always more curious about works that are reputed to be well-researched. Anybody who made an effort to be accurate obviously took his own story as seriously.

The other reason is the same why conspiracy theorists like to insert secret government conspiracies, aliens, lizard people, cabals and only the Lord and the Holy Mother knows what else, while a other people arrive at more boring and often more frightening explanations. The human brain is attracted to the more exiting options, thus "rule of cool" and all assorted type of ideas. You take something you're interested in and pile on it over and over again.

I think one of the forum members more familiar with brain functions could make a more plausible explanation for this, but my guess why this is due to evolution. When you're confused and need to plan, you're averaged frightened person naturally seeks out the more frightening possibilities than the more mundane ones (like, 9/11 wasn't an elaborate plot to scare the populace; it was just the inevitable event that will happen once you put a moron in charge of defence priorities). After all, if you suspected a tiger in your cave and prepared for it, you're odds of surviving are better
Asimov, as mentioned before, didn't particularly bother with it all that much, and he's considered on of SF's greatest.
Wasn't Asimov a biochemist? I recall that he did give up his carrier in favour of writing but I think he did have a degree.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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Zixinus wrote:Wasn't Asimov a biochemist? I recall that he did give up his carrier in favour of writing but I think he did have a degree.
Yeah, he was. He also wrote dozens of popular science books. It's hilarious people are bringing up Asimov to support an "ah, fuck it" attitude towards science; Asimov's fiction broke science all the time, but he knew he was breaking it and he broke it for a purpose.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

Post by B5B7 »

Not only did Isaac Asimov have a degree, but there is a reason why he was called Dr Asimov.
ThomasP wrote:You disagree that the concept of "space fighters" is at the very least a massively over-used cliche, and one that has little basis in reality?
I agree with you but with a couple of caveats. Firstly, since we are talking about unknown to us reality, it can be difficult to be certain of how realistic some things are - after all, many of the things that are depicted in the settings where fighters are used are outside our reality scope as well [however, even so, the fighters as shown in BSG, for instance, are too small to be able to do what they are depicted as achieving, so I am basically agreeing with you].

As a secondary point, and basically wandering off topic here [as we shouldn't get too obsessed with the specific example of fighters, as many other implausible things in the fanfiction you refer to (plus also often bad writing and poor spelling)], but those who justifiably criticize fighters talk of using missiles instead, and unless those missiles have some beyond our science space drive, they won't be too effective either, quite often.

As Ford Prefect stated, consistency is a more important aspect; along with logic and plausibility (incidentally, many of the writers of TV SF seem to not even have a strong grasp of basic arithmetic, let alone science). Again going slightly off OP, but these aspects are why I am so critical of the (professional) author Jack McDevitt - he can write well and his science is treated in an average manner, but he threw logic and plausibility out the window with his two main series, in which he basically transfers "actual" 1950s hundreds or thousands of years into future.

As another example from another sphere - Gary Gygax with his D&D basically created a system in which if you can continuously find a lot of treasure then you will then be able to survive falling off a cliff. This is because he didn't realise (or care) that because something is labelled fantasy doesn't give one a licence to totally ignore the laws of physics and biology, unless you are a great author who can provide a plausible rationale for doing so.

Some minor points of clarification. Although we call this thing we love 'science fiction', it doesn't necessarily need to have much science in it (as everyone reading this already knows).
When earlier I mentioned "knowledge and respect of science", in reference to the authors that I named, I was speaking of a philosophy or attitude towards science that is conveyed by these authors. One can have imaginative superscience, and yet still reveal a basic pro-science vibe. This is in contrast to the attitude conveyed by the writers of Star Trek: Voyager.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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B5B7 wrote:When earlier I mentioned "knowledge and respect of science", in reference to the authors that I named, I was speaking of a philosophy or attitude towards science that is conveyed by these authors. One can have imaginative superscience, and yet still reveal a basic pro-science vibe. This is in contrast to the attitude conveyed by the writers of Star Trek: Voyager.
Right, and we're in agreement on all your major points.

It's more the lackadaisical attitude towards realism/consistency (since as mentioned even if you handwave you should at least be aware that you're doing it), and using it as justification to write crap, that's the issue in my mind.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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Zixinus wrote:
Asimov, as mentioned before, didn't particularly bother with it all that much, and he's considered on of SF's greatest.
Wasn't Asimov a biochemist? I recall that he did give up his carrier in favour of writing but I think he did have a degree.
Asimov had a PhD in Biochemistry and a professor of biochemistry at Boston University School of Medicine, although after 1958 he made his living as a writer, not a teacher.

Asimov wrote a lot of nonfiction as well as fiction, and understood that fiction is, at a fundamental level, about people and not facts. Readers will forgive implausible physics before they forgive implausible characters. He was entirely aware of when he was bending or breaking science when he wrote fiction, but it's fiction, by definition it's about something that didn't happen so it's already a falsehood. If the story requires faster than light travel then an author will use it, even knowing that current science says such things are impossible.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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B5B7 wrote:This is because he didn't realise (or care) that because something is labelled fantasy doesn't give one a licence to totally ignore the laws of physics and biology, unless you are a great author who can provide a plausible rationale for doing so.
As this thread has gone on, I've wanted to say something along these lines. "Fantasy with lasers" doesn't give something a license to be all willy-nilly inconsistent, either. Even fantasy should be grounded in rules, even if those rules completely break with reality as we know it. If there are no rules, the fantasy author is just as incompetent as one who shirks the science in their science fiction.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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Broomstick wrote:
Zixinus wrote:
Asimov, as mentioned before, didn't particularly bother with it all that much, and he's considered on of SF's greatest.
Wasn't Asimov a biochemist? I recall that he did give up his carrier in favour of writing but I think he did have a degree.
Asimov had a PhD in Biochemistry and a professor of biochemistry at Boston University School of Medicine, although after 1958 he made his living as a writer, not a teacher.

Asimov wrote a lot of nonfiction as well as fiction, and understood that fiction is, at a fundamental level, about people and not facts. Readers will forgive implausible physics before they forgive implausible characters.
Umm. At least in the Trantor/Foundation series, Asimov's characters are all singularly unremarkable; the only names I can ever remember without looking them up are Hari Seldon and the Mule, and in both cases that is because they are quasi-religious figures in universe that everyone keeps mentioning. Asimov's concepts were quite interesting science fiction/space opera (or "fantasy with ray guns" as the jargon goes around here), but he was never able to write much interesting character interaction or development.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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And with that I have to agree - I've long been puzzled with how prominent he became. He wasn't producing really memorable characters. On the other hand, although his characters were rather bland they didn't have a habit of doing really bizarre out of character things. That's one reason they don't stand out. Really, in hard science fiction it's OK if you remember the idea more than the characters, so long as the characters don't step out of character - that's what I meant, the characters must be plausible, even if they aren't memorable.

I'm more inclined to remember characters like Susan Calvin and R. Daneel Olivaw, I always was more interested in his robot stories than his Foundation series (yes, I'm aware that eventually the two were merged but I started reading Asimov in the early 1970's, a decade or two before he wrote those novels). The Gods Themselves was intriguing despite the very weak science content but I never held it to be a great novel. Honestly, I think I preferred his non-fiction to his fiction. That, and the magazine that bore his name did quite a bit for short science fiction and new writers in its time.

I did eventually get a copy of a couple of the Lucky Starr series... yuuuuuck. If this is what children used see as their first encounter with "science fiction" I understand why only nerds and geeks tended to read it. Ick. So glad I started with Clarke and Heinlein and adult-focused literature (even if I was only seven at the time, but hey, I had advanced reading skills).
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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What's wrong with the Lucky Starr books? Sure, Asimov's version of the solar system turned out not to be all that close to the REAL one as we found out what it's like. So what? Those books were still good entertainment.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

Post by Samuel »

but those who justifiably criticize fighters talk of using missiles instead, and unless those missiles have some beyond our science space drive, they won't be too effective either, quite often.
Actually the main problem is that we can use unmanned drones to do the job of fighters. We are already using UAVs now and even if computer technology suddenly stops due to random act of plot we would to have machines in the place of pilots.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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Which well-known sci-fi authors are actually scientists? Peter Watts is the only one who springs to mind right now.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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SciFi is a setting, not a story or even a level of realism. Atlas Shrugged is arguably science fiction, so is Warhammer 40,000 and crazy shit by authors I've never heard of (where mechs hit one another with universes or whatever). SciFi is good for speculating, if that's the story you want to tell. It's also perfectly valid window dressing for the conventions of other genres (Bladerunner's noir to Event Horizon's haunted house to Star Wars and Firefly's westerns).
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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Batman wrote:What's wrong with the Lucky Starr books? Sure, Asimov's version of the solar system turned out not to be all that close to the REAL one as we found out what it's like. So what? Those books were still good entertainment.
Really? They struck me as formulaic and repetitive with cardboard characters. If you felt differently (and apparently many have) then just chalk it up to my personal opinion being different from yours.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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Battlehymn Republic wrote:Which well-known sci-fi authors are actually scientists? Peter Watts is the only one who springs to mind right now.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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Broomstick wrote:And with that I have to agree - I've long been puzzled with how prominent he became.
Why? Clarke had less prominent characters, as did Heinlein. Heinlein's heroes always seemed too samey for me. Clarke didn't even have heroes, he just had people in interesting or extraordinary situations.

Asimov had great ideas, particularly psychohistory and the laws of robotics. Not even Clarke or Heinlein introduced memorable concepts such as those. Foundation isn't about individuals, it is about people and the rise and fall of civilisation. Hari Seldon is an enigma (I haven't read the prequel books yet).
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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Broomstick wrote:And with that I have to agree - I've long been puzzled with how prominent he became. He wasn't producing really memorable characters. On the other hand, although his characters were rather bland they didn't have a habit of doing really bizarre out of character things. That's one reason they don't stand out. Really, in hard science fiction it's OK if you remember the idea more than the characters, so long as the characters don't step out of character - that's what I meant, the characters must be plausible, even if they aren't memorable.
That is probably true. Asimov's strength, as with other early science fiction, was more the concepts than character-driven stories. I would not agree with his supporters here that the Foundation series was meticulously planned out, excellent world-building with scientific problems considered (if one takes the whole issue about Trantor, for example, which has been debated at some length here, that appeared to be largely ignorant handwaving, and there were some considerable technological inconsistencies - notably with power generation), but it is a pioneering work in fleshing out its Galactic Empire. The story arc about the fall of the Empire (and later the rise of the telepaths, which was less of a favourite to me) remains interesting today in spite of virtually nonexistant characters. The books were less novels and more chronicles of fictional ahistory, somehow.
Battlehymn Republic wrote:Which well-known sci-fi authors are actually scientists? Peter Watts is the only one who springs to mind right now.
I am not certain whether he would qualify as well known today, but Edward E. Smith, who effectively invented the space opera genre back in the '30s/'40s, had a PhD in chemistry. His works, while making heavy use of handwaving and having somewhat dated science in certain respects, are surprisingly internally consistent, especially when one consider that they were literally written as pulp serials; among other things, he comes much closer to having a proper sense of scale for transgalactic civilisations than most of his successors.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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I personally find it entertaining on a site dedicated to 1-mile long ships that:
-Produce the energy of a small sun, with what is for all intents and purposes a magic power source
-Have magic radiators that prevent the waste heat from vaping the crew, nevermind melting the ship.
-Have magic acceleration compensators that allow them to legitly get away with 1,000s of G
-Have magic that allows antigravity and repulsor technology
-Can devastate entire worlds with aplomb using gun mounts that aren't that big
-Has stupid shields that basically require equally stupid weapons to threaten
-Can go FTL
-Has magic regeneration cylinders that can cure just about anything with a soak
-Equips ground troops with clumsy walkers on grounds that really don't hold up, given Snow speeders do fly under the shield and there's better ways to setup a means of safely passing through the actual field.
-Conduct almost painfully slow ground operations, even with all the L33t toys.

People are bitching Sci-Fi writers out for ignoring Physics. It's not like the flagrantly ignoring thermodynamics, tendency towards lack of follow through with collateral damage, and otherwise is not present in the site's namesake. Is there some field of study it doesn't have a noteworthy violation in?

Science!=a well thought out concept. Given fiction by definition is not made to the same standard as a proposal, I think it's more telling of the people here that they think fiction writers actually would and should meet those standards. Cheap entertainment is cheap entertainment and has its quality standards. It is not a proposal developed by a panel of experts after years of study on a problem.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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FOG3 wrote:Science!=a well thought out concept. Given fiction by definition is not made to the same standard as a proposal, I think it's more telling of the people here that they think fiction writers actually would and should meet those standards. Cheap entertainment is cheap entertainment and has its quality standards. It is not a proposal developed by a panel of experts after years of study on a problem.
There's a difference between deliberate decisions for the sake of story or setting and ignorant gaffes caused by lazy/nonexistent research. Trek gets slagged all the time on this site for these kinds of errors, and Wars has had a few doozies as well--"We'll take a submarine through the core of the planet". These don't make the story better, they just break suspension of disbelief.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

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Destructionator XIII wrote:In my own setting, I've been finding that the harder I make the science, not only does it instantly become more consistent, but the storylines make more and more sense - questions like "why the hell wouldn't they try X" start to answer themselves.

Not only do the existing plots become stronger, good science actually opens up more plots that I previously ignored. This is partially because paying attention to the science forces me to think about what is happening, and partially because the rules of the world are a nice strong guide as to what should happen next.

Pondering up alternative solutions makes a stronger, more solid story, and real science is an outstanding framework to guide you through the process.
Quoted for truth. Science makes storytelling easier, not harder, because it provides a set of consistent boundaries in which to work. I don't think it's an accident the first novel I ever finished was much harder than all my previous attempts.
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Re: Why do most wannabe SF writers reject science?

Post by Zixinus »

Which again validates my point somewhat: anybody who has gone trough the effort/research to create a solid base for the science of his novel, is likely to be just as meticulous with his writing-related work and editing.
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