Avatar supposedly racist

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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Darth Wong »

wolveraptor wrote:The author says it best:
This is a classic scenario you've seen in non-scifi epics from Dances With Wolves to The Last Samurai, where a white guy manages to get himself accepted into a closed society of people of color and eventually becomes its most awesome member.
The message is that "anything you can do, the white man can do better".
But that's a retarded conclusion. It's not just about race, it's about the fact that he has insider knowledge. How the fuck would a Na'Vi have been able to take out a flying cruiser by tossing grenades into its air intakes? Where would he get the grenades? How would he know how to use them? How would he know which parts of the ship are vulnerable?

One can only interpret that in terms of race if one is trying hard to do so. The same is true in Last Samurai, where Algren was useful not because he was a superior swordsman but because he knew more about the kinds of tactics the western-trained enemies would use. When the fighting began, he wasn't superior to anyone else. It was just dumb luck that he survived at the end; it's not as if he did anything different or better than anyone else around him.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Samuel »

Why do so many of you bring up racism in north america as the default?
We live there.
However lets make a clear distinction between bad racism and good racism. That is what is the intent and causation of it.
That isn't bad racism versus good racism- that is a false belief versus a true one. Different ethnic groups do have different odds of certain diseases.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by wolveraptor »

Darth Wong wrote:But that's a retarded conclusion. It's not just about race, it's about the fact that he has insider knowledge. How the fuck would a Na'Vi have been able to take out a flying cruiser by tossing grenades into its air intakes? Where would he get the grenades? How would he know how to use them? How would he know which parts of the ship are vulnerable?
That's true, in this scenario as well as real life ones. As I mentioned earlier, white people were instrumental to the Civil Rights movements in North America for similar reasons.

Looking back, author does get it wrong on some points.
Not only has he been assimilated into the native people's culture, but he has become their leader.
Not strictly true. Yes he's the protagonist, but the tribe did have its own cheiftan and elders, as well as a religious hierarchy.

One thing that does bother me, though, is the sexual element to these kinds of movies. In both Samurai and Avatar, the outsider hero quickly seduces some native girl who was involved with another guy prior to his arrival. In Algren's case, it was particularly stupid because the guy fucking killed Taka's husband. But no, suddenly the fact that "oh, he's so good with my kids" is enough for her to overlook that.

Now obviously there's nothing bad about two people from different cultures becoming romantically involved, but it seems to happen with a certain immediacy in these types of story lines. It's pretty corny, and it smacks of that whole "awesome-best-of-both-worlds white dude" trope I was mentioning earlier. Hell, it's usually not even necessary to the plot to include that type of story arc. Why does Hollywood insist on doing it?
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

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wolveraptor wrote: Hell, it's usually not even necessary to the plot to include that type of story arc. Why does Hollywood insist on doing it?
Cramming in a romance sub-plot attracts female viewers?
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

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Not always. Frankly, I find a lot of the "must have romantic/lust interest" in Hollywood to be crass and clumsy. And you're discounting the "guy gets the girl" fantasy of young males.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

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wolveraptor wrote:One thing that does bother me, though, is the sexual element to these kinds of movies. In both Samurai and Avatar, the outsider hero quickly seduces some native girl who was involved with another guy prior to his arrival.
The implausibly accelerated romance is a staple of all movies, not just this particular kind of movie.
In Algren's case, it was particularly stupid because the guy fucking killed Taka's husband. But no, suddenly the fact that "oh, he's so good with my kids" is enough for her to overlook that.
Taka's husband probably treated her like shit anyway. Think about the kind of man you're talking about.
Now obviously there's nothing bad about two people from different cultures becoming romantically involved, but it seems to happen with a certain immediacy in these types of story lines. It's pretty corny, and it smacks of that whole "awesome-best-of-both-worlds white dude" trope I was mentioning earlier. Hell, it's usually not even necessary to the plot to include that type of story arc. Why does Hollywood insist on doing it?
I don't see anything about the implausibly accelerated romance which is race-related. It's a very common theme in movies of all kinds.

The only guys who consistently nail women because of race are black guys in porno movies.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by wolveraptor »

^You know, you're right. Those cliches aren't automatically racist just because characters of two different races are involved in them, just like a crime isn't automatically racist just because it's committed by a member of one race against a member of another. I concede.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Gramzamber »

Darksider wrote:
wolveraptor wrote: Hell, it's usually not even necessary to the plot to include that type of story arc. Why does Hollywood insist on doing it?
Cramming in a romance sub-plot attracts female viewers?
Maybe more female main characters would attract female viewers instead.
But then it seems to be Hollywood law these days that all main characters must be crewcut white males, or Will Smith.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

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"All main characters must be crew-cut white males" has been pretty much the rule since motion pictures were first created. Yes, a few exceptions, but not many.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Spoonist »

Samuel wrote:
However lets make a clear distinction between bad racism and good racism. That is what is the intent and causation of it.
That isn't bad racism versus good racism- that is a false belief versus a true one. Different ethnic groups do have different odds of certain diseases.
Agreed, but treating them differently because of their genetic setup is by some called racism, which was why I wanted to exclude that from this debate. Other debates on racism on this board has detariorated down to this before and I wanted to point out that this was not what the article was refering to.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Spoonist »

Gramzamber wrote:
Darksider wrote:
wolveraptor wrote: Hell, it's usually not even necessary to the plot to include that type of story arc. Why does Hollywood insist on doing it?
Cramming in a romance sub-plot attracts female viewers?
Maybe more female main characters would attract female viewers instead.
But then it seems to be Hollywood law these days that all main characters must be crewcut white males, or Will Smith.
Which is one thing that I usually like about Cameron's movies. He casts females in lots of roles who are traditionally males only. T2 and Aliens comes to mind. In Avatar the examples would be the scientific lead, how many other sci-fi movies/series have a female as the scientific lead? Same thing with the "nice" pilot.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Gramzamber »

Spoonist wrote:Which is one thing that I usually like about Cameron's movies. He casts females in lots of roles who are traditionally males only. T2 and Aliens comes to mind. In Avatar the examples would be the scientific lead, how many other sci-fi movies/series have a female as the scientific lead? Same thing with the "nice" pilot.
Yeah my post was more a stab at Hollywood in general rather than this movie (other than I think Sam Worthington is a wanker, but I digress..).
Aliens is always up there when I think of "strong female lead".
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Junghalli »

Hard SF author Peter Watts wrote a decent review of Avatar that touches on this issue. I've bolded the relevant parts.
Peter Watts wrote:A little bit of classic Trek. A bit of Deathworld, a touch of Anne McAffrey’s Dragonriders. At least 50% glorious Roger-Dean-album-cover porn. Strong echoes of The Emerald Forest, a lameass mystical eighties-era John Boorman film about the plight of the Amazon. South Park pretty much nailed the plot with that “Dances with Smurfs” episode they ran a few weeks back. And most tellingly, am I the only one out there to remember an obscure 1975 novel by Alan Dean Foster called Midworld? About a planet sheathed in deep forest, and the six-legged fauna that lived there, and the ruthless Human industrialists who come to exploit its riches only to be fought by the gone-native descendents of an earlier expedition that had learned to live in harmony with nature? A novel in which it was ultimately revealed that the fauna and the flora were essentially part of a single interconnected network? Yes? Anyone?

I am talking, of course, about James Cameron’s Avatar, which I saw in glorious understated 3D last night, and which proved (for all the triteness of its plot) to be one of the more welcome diversions I’ve experienced over the past couple of weeks. It was frustrating. It was enjoyable. They got the some things right and some things wrong, and some things they got both ways at the same time.

The technology, for example. Anachronistic in that way it absolutely has to be, to convey a sense of verisimilitude to the modern gut. The critic in you insists that all these manual controls and B-52 cockpits— the very presence of on-site human pilots in a world of teleoperated meat puppets, generations beyond a time in which the skies already seethe with autonomous flying robots— make about as much sense as an F-16 with reins and a buggy-whip for a control interface. And yet the scratched paint and the scuffed windscreens feel so right, viscerally, that just this once I do not have the heart to complain.

Or the biology. Someone put a lot of thought into Pandora’s wildlife; it was beautiful to behold, it was amazingly diverse, it even seemed (for the most part) phylogenetically consistent. Across a wide range of species, everything from nostril placement to jaw structure was nicely suggestive of common ancestry. Except for the Na’vi, which are ridiculously anthropomorphic: tetrapod bipeds where everything else on the planet seems to have six limbs; binocular vision on a world where four eyes is the vertebrate norm. Evidently Cameron felt that his hero could not plausibly fall in love with a four-eyed banana-slug, but that a blue-skinned cat-woman just might pass muster. (I agree that the former premise would result in a much more challenging film, conceptually— but then, I like conceptually challenging films.) And while I have no problem in principle with the concept of planetary-ecosystem-as-integrated-network, did anybody give any thought at all as to the ramifications of hanging extra USB-equipped spinal cords off the heads of every piece of megafauna on the planet? Pandora is rife with obvious predator-prey interactions; how would those even evolve in a world where prey could forge a direct neural interface with their predators, force them to feel the pain of being consumed? Wouldn’t that pretty much have to result in completely different trophodynamic networks than the Wild-Kingdom stuff that we saw in the film?

Then there’s the question of how the good guys can move their Avatar-interface pods into a “flux zone” which scrambles all EM signals, without compromising the Avatar link itself. And I’m sure someone worked out some kind of superconductor handwave for the levitating unobtanium; would a line or two of explanatory dialog really have killed the pacing that much?

Characters vs. caricatures. No corporate honcho is going to be caught dead talking about “savages” and “blue monkeys”, even if that’s the way they actually feel; these people are more than practiced in the smiling empty comment, the statement that encourages and reassures but commits to nothing. They would speak of relocating the “natives” for their own good, perhaps; who knows what damaging side-effects this unobtanium might have on the unprotected indigenous people? Burke, from Cameron’s Aliens, was a much more plausible corporate slimeball.

And of course, as I’m sure I’m not the first to point out, there’s the whole problem of the Helpless Natives Who Need To Be Rescued By The Noble White Guy. Given the story’s premise, I certainly don’t deny that ol’ Jake would be an extremely valuable resource, with his inside knowledge of how the “sky people” operate. There’s nothing patronizing or condescending about giving him a vital role in the insurgency, the most valuable source of tactical wisdom available. A consultant. An advisor.

But a messiah? This guy who has spent a grand total of three months living with the natives, leading an assault with local implements, across terrain on which every other member of the tribe has spent their entire lives? This guy, this innocent, figures out the trick to taming the planet’s Top Predator all by himself, a trick that only five real Na’vi have figured out during their entire recorded history? (It’s actually a not-bad trick, if you don’t think about it too much. If you do, though, you start thinking about those spinal USB jacks again, and the vulnerability of even the most fearsome predator to sneak neural hacks…) The tale would have been better told if Jake had told them all he knew, and then been shunted off to the side and kept safe— an invaluable source of intel, too vital to risk in battle— while the native warriors took the lead.


Finally, I had seriously misgivings about the resolution at the end of the movie. It does not seem quite as definitive as Cameron would have us believe. The title of this posting, taken from another of his films, kinda sums up the problem as I see it.

But you know something? All that said, I’d see Avatar again. In a second.

It’s been years now since special effects were enough to entice me into a theatre. Ever since the ascension of CGI, it’s been possible to render pretty much anything a writer can imagine. The highest production values have been devalued by the relentless onslaught of Moore’s Law. I didn’t care how eye-popping something looked; there had to be more to lure me in. No modern movie can succeed solely on the strength of its special effects.

But then I saw Avatar, and in terms of sheer technical virtuosity it just blew me away. Every frame is gorgeous. Every two minutes of footage looks as though it must have cost as much as any other whole movie to make. Every perfectly-rendered dust mote and shaft of filtered sunlight forces me to smile and widen my eyes despite my most jaded intentions.

I have a lot of problems with Avatar as a story. As a movie, though — as an experience — it has made me change my own rules, at least for now.

Avatar is a movie that succeeds on the strength of its effects.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Ford Prefect »

wolveraptor wrote:In Algren's case, it was particularly stupid because the guy fucking killed Taka's husband. But no, suddenly the fact that "oh, he's so good with my kids" is enough for her to overlook that.
Isn't the whole point of the Algren/Taka relationship that he reminds her of Hirotata? Hence the pointedly shown fatherly relationship with her children? She gives Algren Hirotata's armour because he has come to fill the role of the man he killed at the beginning of the film.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Sinewmire »

In Algren's case, it was particularly stupid because the guy fucking killed Taka's husband. But no, suddenly the fact that "oh, he's so good with my kids" is enough for her to overlook that.
Maybe she just, you know, likes the guy who's been living with her for X amount of time? I thought she was attracted to him from the get go, hence her request for suicide to Katsumoto. Not because she has the man who killed her husband in her house, but because she has the man who killed her husband in her house and is attracted to him.

The "good with the kids" thing just helped her put him in a context other than "foreigner guy who killed my husband", as I saw it.

Maybe I' m, just overthinking things, I usually do.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Simon_Jester »

Speaking for myself, I started expecting to like the movie as soon as I say a starship with radiators on its engine block; I can't remember ever seeing anyone get that right before in visual media.

On the review Junghalli cited, a few random comments and a bit about the "white guy turns out to be a better native than the natives" aspect.
And of course, as I’m sure I’m not the first to point out, there’s the whole problem of the Helpless Natives Who Need To Be Rescued By The Noble White Guy. Given the story’s premise, I certainly don’t deny that ol’ Jake would be an extremely valuable resource, with his inside knowledge of how the “sky people” operate. There’s nothing patronizing or condescending about giving him a vital role in the insurgency, the most valuable source of tactical wisdom available. A consultant. An advisor.

But a messiah? This guy who has spent a grand total of three months living with the natives, leading an assault with local implements, across terrain on which every other member of the tribe has spent their entire lives? This guy, this innocent, figures out the trick to taming the planet’s Top Predator all by himself, a trick that only five real Na’vi have figured out during their entire recorded history? (It’s actually a not-bad trick, if you don’t think about it too much. If you do, though, you start thinking about those spinal USB jacks again, and the vulnerability of even the most fearsome predator to sneak neural hacks…) The tale would have been better told if Jake had told them all he knew, and then been shunted off to the side and kept safe— an invaluable source of intel, too vital to risk in battle— while the native warriors took the lead.
This is, to my way of thinking, the sign of a man who cannot get his mind into the frame of reference used by pastoral or hunter-gatherer societies. On Earth, most societies like that are big on personal leadership, establishing the right to rule through heroic achievement, that sort of thing. They don't have carefully organized bureaucracies that say "OK, we'll send these guys out to fight and keep these guys at home to work on the intelligence staff;" they have warriors that say "well, if you know so much about fighting this enemy, why don't you show us how well it works, Mr. Big Man?" and laugh you out of the tribal council if you don't do it. If Jake wanted to accomplish anything with the Na'Vi he was going to have to establish himself as someone impressive enough to follow.

As for his managing to tame the big red dragon-monster, it's made pretty clear that he does this by looking at the problem from an external context. Look at how the Na'Vi normally approach banshees. If they tried to tame a toruk that way they'd get torn to pieces, because while banshees are small enough that you can break them rodeo-style, the toruks aren't. Figuring out how to capture one would require either an enormous amount of physical skill (the sort of thing that you only see once every few generations)... or a kind of meta-analysis that Stone Age societies may not be very good at, because while they know everything about their own environment they're not accustomed to taking a step back and thinking about that environment in the abstract. They don't think "the toruk is an apex predator" and exploit the gaps that will leave in its defensive behavior, because there's no category "apex predator" in their minds. They think "holy shit that thing is dangerous," and rightly so.
___________

Aand the random stuff:
The technology, for example. Anachronistic in that way it absolutely has to be, to convey a sense of verisimilitude to the modern gut. The critic in you insists that all these manual controls and B-52 cockpits— the very presence of on-site human pilots in a world of teleoperated meat puppets, generations beyond a time in which the skies already seethe with autonomous flying robots— make about as much sense as an F-16 with reins and a buggy-whip for a control interface. And yet the scratched paint and the scuffed windscreens feel so right, viscerally, that just this once I do not have the heart to complain.
The use of on-site human pilots may be an adaptation to local conditions, too. They've got the Designated Magic Rocks putting out some kind of interference field that makes radar and guided missiles unreliable; the same effect could also make it tricky to fly aircraft remotely like Predator drones. In which case the first wave of colonist-miners on Pandora would try to fly their teleoperated aircraft around, crash whenever they got too close to a flying mountain or inconveniently placed natural ore deposit, and eventually groan and decide to retrofit their aircraft with Stone Age manual controls.
And while I have no problem in principle with the concept of planetary-ecosystem-as-integrated-network, did anybody give any thought at all as to the ramifications of hanging extra USB-equipped spinal cords off the heads of every piece of megafauna on the planet? Pandora is rife with obvious predator-prey interactions; how would those even evolve in a world where prey could forge a direct neural interface with their predators, force them to feel the pain of being consumed? Wouldn’t that pretty much have to result in completely different trophodynamic networks than the Wild-Kingdom stuff that we saw in the film?
The prey would have to be able to plug their USB cords into the predator, which could be difficult to do without hands and humanoid-level brains. Trying to set up a neural link as a predator defense isn't a very safe plan in Pandora, as demonstrated by what happens when Na'Vi hunters try to plug into and adopt the banshees- it's dangerous and some of them die trying. If an animal tried it (without tricks like throwing a bolo around the beast's mouth to keep it from biting), it would probably be in even worse shape.
Characters vs. caricatures. No corporate honcho is going to be caught dead talking about “savages” and “blue monkeys”, even if that’s the way they actually feel; these people are more than practiced in the smiling empty comment, the statement that encourages and reassures but commits to nothing. They would speak of relocating the “natives” for their own good, perhaps; who knows what damaging side-effects this unobtanium might have on the unprotected indigenous people?
Ooh. Good point.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Darth Wong »

Simon_Jester wrote:This is, to my way of thinking, the sign of a man who cannot get his mind into the frame of reference used by pastoral or hunter-gatherer societies.
That's the same thing I was thinking. The guy appears to fulfill a religious prophecy, so they elevate him to a high level. No one ever said that primitive tribal and religious beliefs had to make sense.
As for his managing to tame the big red dragon-monster, it's made pretty clear that he does this by looking at the problem from an external context.
I thought he actually did it by taking a huge risk and having it pay off, because he had nothing left to lose at that point. Na'vi do take risks, but those risks are controlled in the sense that they are familiar with them. They're not suicidal. I viewed that scene as Jake taking a near-suicidal risk because he'd burned every bridge and he knew it was his only shot.
The use of on-site human pilots may be an adaptation to local conditions, too. They've got the Designated Magic Rocks putting out some kind of interference field that makes radar and guided missiles unreliable; the same effect could also make it tricky to fly aircraft remotely like Predator drones.
The remote-operated avatars didn't seem to involve any kind of high-tech transceiver anyway; in the Avatar-verse there seems to be an assumption that biological central nervous system function operates on some kind of higher level than artificial technology does. It's the Avatar-verse's equivalent of magic. It's also why you have to be genetically matched to your avatar.
The prey would have to be able to plug their USB cords into the predator, which could be difficult to do without hands and humanoid-level brains. Trying to set up a neural link as a predator defense isn't a very safe plan in Pandora, as demonstrated by what happens when Na'Vi hunters try to plug into and adopt the banshees- it's dangerous and some of them die trying. If an animal tried it (without tricks like throwing a bolo around the beast's mouth to keep it from biting), it would probably be in even worse shape.
I would assume that the neural-jack connection is an evolutionary adaptation similar to "pack animal" communication in real-life. It confers an advantage because of the ability to communicate, although you would expect it to only work within a species. The known existence of inter-species neural jacking might be limited to only particular species with a particular genetic lineage, or it might be evidence of historical symbiosis, similar to the relationship between man and dogs but on an even closer level.
Characters vs. caricatures. No corporate honcho is going to be caught dead talking about “savages” and “blue monkeys”, even if that’s the way they actually feel; these people are more than practiced in the smiling empty comment, the statement that encourages and reassures but commits to nothing. They would speak of relocating the “natives” for their own good, perhaps; who knows what damaging side-effects this unobtanium might have on the unprotected indigenous people?
Ooh. Good point.
No it isn't. This guy has obviously never worked for an industrial corporation. Would he consider it a ridiculous "caricature" to see an employee of a paper-mill laughing and joking about how much waste they illegally dump into rivers and streams up north? Because I've seen that myself in real-life. The fact is that people can be amazingly blunt and say incredibly offensive things once they get the idea that you probably agree with them.

In fact, I have to wonder if this guy has just led a sheltered life. If I were to imagine myself on Pandora in the human settlement, I would expect the humans to have all sorts of derogatory names for the Na'Vi. If anything, "savages" and "blue monkeys" seem fairly mild.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Samuel »

The remote-operated avatars didn't seem to involve any kind of high-tech transceiver anyway; in the Avatar-verse there seems to be an assumption that biological central nervous system function operates on some kind of higher level than artificial technology does. It's the Avatar-verse's equivalent of magic. It's also why you have to be genetically matched to your avatar.
The unobtanium is supposed to allow FTL coms- they could use it for the link in the avatar bodies which would explain why they cost so much (not my theory and it still doesn't explain the requirements for a genetic match).
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Ford Prefect »

Samuel wrote:The unobtanium is supposed to allow FTL coms- they could use it for the link in the avatar bodies which would explain why they cost so much (not my theory and it still doesn't explain the requirements for a genetic match).
They have FTL coms but with ridiculously low bandwidth. It couldn't possibly allow for the real time Avatar control we see in the film.
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wolveraptor
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by wolveraptor »

I suppose it's worth pointing out that hunter-gatherer cultures are often static for hundreds of thousands of years, with advancements in technology or understanding for generations. This might help explain why the Na'vi didn't figure out a consistent method for breaking and taming the Toruk.
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CaptainChewbacca
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

It seemed to me the deal with Toruk was that the Navi either don't appear to have as much of an ego as humans, or else their respect for toruk is so great that most hunters wouldn't consider trying. Mostly it would come down to 'not urgent enough' or 'no good reason' for taming it.

Of course, as soon as I heard the explanation of what the Toruk Makto could do I thought to myself 'If Jake tamed one, he could just tell the Na'vi to leave'.
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hongi
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by hongi »

Characters vs. caricatures. No corporate honcho is going to be caught dead talking about “savages” and “blue monkeys”, even if that’s the way they actually feel; these people are more than practiced in the smiling empty comment, the statement that encourages and reassures but commits to nothing. They would speak of relocating the “natives” for their own good, perhaps; who knows what damaging side-effects this unobtanium might have on the unprotected indigenous people?
Disagree. In the comfort of the control centre and among people he feels share his sentiments, it's no wonder that the guy was calling them savages. Obviously he'd talk with more polish in front of a camera and news crew.
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Simon_Jester »

Darth Wong wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:This is, to my way of thinking, the sign of a man who cannot get his mind into the frame of reference used by pastoral or hunter-gatherer societies.
That's the same thing I was thinking. The guy appears to fulfill a religious prophecy, so they elevate him to a high level. No one ever said that primitive tribal and religious beliefs had to make sense.
I'm not so sure this one was purely religious: there's a reason why primitive societies tend to follow the toughest warrior. It's not always as good as following the smartest warrior or having a complicated, refined command structure, but it works better than a lot of the alternatives. Anyone tough and clever enough to tame one of those giant monsters is probably tough and clever enough to make a good war leader for most of the stuff the Na'Vi normally have to deal with. Makes sense to me.

So yes, the Na'Vi have legends about some hero taming a giant dragon-monster; that doesn't mean they don't have strictly practical reasons to shut up and listen to someone who manages to pull it off.
I thought he actually did it by taking a huge risk and having it pay off, because he had nothing left to lose at that point. Na'vi do take risks, but those risks are controlled in the sense that they are familiar with them. They're not suicidal. I viewed that scene as Jake taking a near-suicidal risk because he'd burned every bridge and he knew it was his only shot.
I think it was a combination of both: what he was doing was immensely dangerous, but it would have been even more dangerous (to the point of impossibility) if he hadn't thought the problem through and figured out that trying to take on a toruk the way the Na'Vi normally take on their banshees would be a mistake.
Characters vs. caricatures. No corporate honcho is going to be caught dead talking about “savages” and “blue monkeys”, even if that’s the way they actually feel; these people are more than practiced in the smiling empty comment, the statement that encourages and reassures but commits to nothing. They would speak of relocating the “natives” for their own good, perhaps; who knows what damaging side-effects this unobtanium might have on the unprotected indigenous people?
Ooh. Good point.
No it isn't. This guy has obviously never worked for an industrial corporation. Would he consider it a ridiculous "caricature" to see an employee of a paper-mill laughing and joking about how much waste they illegally dump into rivers and streams up north? Because I've seen that myself in real-life. The fact is that people can be amazingly blunt and say incredibly offensive things once they get the idea that you probably agree with them.[/quote]True.

The only slight catch with that is that this movie's corporate executive isn't talking to people who agree with him, or isn't talking entirely to people who agree with him. If he were talking to the colonel, that rant of his would make a lot of sense. Talking to a biologist who's the leading expert on communicating with the natives? Then it only makes sense as a deliberate attempt to slap her down. Which, of course, it might very well be given the circumstances.
CaptainChewbacca wrote:It seemed to me the deal with Toruk was that the Navi either don't appear to have as much of an ego as humans, or else their respect for toruk is so great that most hunters wouldn't consider trying. Mostly it would come down to 'not urgent enough' or 'no good reason' for taming it.

Of course, as soon as I heard the explanation of what the Toruk Makto could do I thought to myself 'If Jake tamed one, he could just tell the Na'vi to leave'.
I think you're overestimating the degree to which the Na'Vi follow a Toruk Makto out of religious awe, compared to the degree to which it's practical. The only other example of a Toruk Makto we have is one who united the Na'Vi clans in a crisis, much as Jake did. Presumably, he did it by being a good leader and doing things that made sense, even if most wouldn't have the guts to do it themselves.

So I'd expect that a lot of people were listening to him because what he said made sense, or because they didn't want to be devoured by his pet dragon, and not because of an automatic "Wow! You must be a god!" reflex that causes them to ignore their own sense of self-preservation or anything. And the same applied to Jake. Taming a toruk got his foot in the door, but I doubt the Na'Vi would have listened to him for long if he'd been babbling nonsense. So if a Jake had shown up riding a toruk, then started preaching submission to the aliens and unlimited retreat, I think he'd be liable to wake up with his head bashed in.
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hongi
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by hongi »

Talking to a biologist who's the leading expert on communicating with the natives? Then it only makes sense as a deliberate attempt to slap her down. Which, of course, it might very well be given the circumstances.
Of course, they have a very antagonistic relationship. Either that or he simply doesn't care what she thinks. What's she going to do, tell him to stop calling the Na'vi derogatory names?
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Re: Avatar supposedly racist

Post by Simon_Jester »

hongi wrote:
Talking to a biologist who's the leading expert on communicating with the natives? Then it only makes sense as a deliberate attempt to slap her down. Which, of course, it might very well be given the circumstances.
Of course, they have a very antagonistic relationship. Either that or he simply doesn't care what she thinks. What's she going to do, tell him to stop calling the Na'vi derogatory names?
That ties into what I was trying to get at. He's deliberately showing that he doesn't value her opinion, that he thinks she's lost it and gone wandering off into tree-hugging hippitude, as way of sending a message both to her ("shut up") and to his own employees ("we're all in this together against the crazy scientist lady").
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