Daleks in Warhammer 40k

[Shroom Man 777]

Yes. It absorbed Rose's DNA and that was why it was experiencing human emotions, and that was why it was disgusted with itself and self-terminated. Very touching, in a Daleky kinda way.

[TC Pilot]

That's if you assume the Earth was covered in survey posts that still functioned after being massively dislocated or something. 'Display goes wobbly' is a pretty poor excuse for continental dislocation and it's pretty worthless evidence (although we know they killed everyone); the station wasn't destroyed by huge amounts of ejecta or anything. Pretty much the only way the terminal display is acceptable is if you assume the station observed the planet with video, removed everything but the continental outline and presented that (deleting for example the giant doomfleet of unstoppable doom, environmental disruption, etc).

The girl whose watching it says they're "bombing whole continents" and "Australasia's just gone."

If it makes you feel any better, each "wobbly" continent has a big blinking red circle around it before it goes wobbly.

[Stark]

They 100% have massive planet-killing firepower; that display is just a dubious source and unnecesary.

[Ugolino]

Time travel might not go as planned in the 40k verse. Certain materials mention that Chaos can influence time to an extent. (Mentions of warp storms being "tears in space and time", time flowing differently in the Eye of Terror, daemon weapons that evidently can cut time in the Chaos Daemons codex...)

Daleks would probably be seen as similar to Necrons: highly deadly but rare threats. Oh, and heretic alien technology.

[LadyTevar]

And once the EoM finds out the pepperpots are just armor for the mutants inside?

[TC Pilot]

Time travel might not go as planned in the 40k verse. Certain materials mention that Chaos can influence time to an extent. (Mentions of warp storms being "tears in space and time", time flowing differently in the Eye of Terror, daemon weapons that evidently can cut time in the Chaos Daemons codex...)

That strikes me as fairly anemic compared to standard Time Lord/Dalek time travelling. I mean, a single TARDIS can basically ignore causality with a bit of modification, and the Time Lords could pretty much do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted, and the Daleks beat them.

[Shroom Man 777]

And once the EoM finds out the pepperpots are just armor for the mutants inside?

Then what?

Chaos Space Marines are just a bunch of mutated superhumans inside some armor too. And when the EoM found this out, that Chaos Space Marines are just Space Marine armor for the superhuman mutants inside... nothing spectacular really happened.

Of course, the CSM are also blessed by their foul gods and most of the other factions do have esoteric factors going for them... except the Tau? And once the EoM finds out the Greyskins are just armor for the aliens inside? Nothing happened. Yet the Tau have been doing pretty fine (of course, the other factions could squash them like a bug if the Tau were shit out of luck) in the grimdarkness of the far future where there is only war.

The Dalek could not fare any worse than them - and since they've demonstrated technology far surpassing any seen in "current" 40k (excluding apocryphal paleohistorical stuffs) like standard-issue time travel and higher-end (attempted) multiversal genocide, it's a fair bet to say that the Daleks are probably going to rate pretty high in the Cain's Scale of "bowel-clenching existential terrors".

Can the Warp deities of 40k even engage in temporal warfare at all? I know they're massively powerful, but have they ever done anything that ridiculous? I recall hearing of ships and armies departing and ending up in temporal paradoxes due to Warp fluctuations, but in 40k this is the exception. With Doctor Who, the Time Lords, and the Daleks, this is everyday/everytime norm.

Daleks would probably be seen as similar to Necrons: highly deadly but rare threats. Oh, and heretic alien technology.

Have they ever engaged in time travel? Have they ever displaced planets - through space AND time - to construct some ridiculous doomsday weapon meant to annihilate life on ALL galaxies in ALL universes? I'd ask if a Necron Warrior could do something as ridiculous as "extrapolating the DNA of a time traveler" to repair battle damage, but then I realized that Necrons have self-repair technology, so nevermind. Although you've got to admit, "extrapolating DNA" from a time traveler sounds ridiculous.

Man, realizing that the Daleks in the season 4 finale of Doctor Who had technology to reliably neutralize the TARDIS, makes them out to be freaky scary.

[NecronLord]

the Daleks beat them.

They did nothing of the sort. The Doctor immolated them from on high before Lord President Rassilon could use the Final Sanction, and... also obliterate them. Current evidence suggests that while the Daleks won battles ("took control of the cruciform"), they had no realistic chance of victory at the end.

If we're counting Time War survivors, then we also get to count the Time Lord Victorious among them.

[Teleros]

it's a fair bet to say that the Daleks are probably going to rate pretty high in the Cain's Scale of "bowel-clenching existential terrors".

Except that Ciaphas Cain tends to win against those terrors (well, survive, which I suppose is the same thing in 40K) .

Can the Warp deities of 40k even engage in temporal warfare at all? I know they're massively powerful, but have they ever done anything that ridiculous? I recall hearing of ships and armies departing and ending up in temporal paradoxes due to Warp fluctuations, but in 40k this is the exception. With Doctor Who, the Time Lords, and the Daleks, this is everyday/everytime norm.

Not that I know of, although the way the Warp messes with time may make daemon worlds and Chaos in general much harder for the Daleks to beat. Of course, hiding out in the Warp isn't exactly a brilliant tactic for beating the guys who now run the galaxy...

[TC Pilot]

They did nothing of the sort.

Beyond surviving in a war against the Time Lords long enough to attack Gallifrey and wreck their capital, of course.

The Doctor immolated them from on high before Lord President Rassilon could use the Final Sanction, and... also obliterate them.

Which was the equivalent of Davros' reality bomb, was it not? The Time Lords weren't exactly going to survive that, at least not in anything resembling their original form, if at all.

Current evidence suggests that while the Daleks won battles ("took control of the cruciform"), they had no realistic chance of victory at the end.

That's like saying the US or Soviets wouldn't have won a war against the other because in the end of the other side would just destroy the planet with nukes. Regardless, the Daleks, and whatever else was involved in the Time War, pushed the Time Lords into a corner from which their only solution appears to have been "destroy reality and hope we ascend." Considering where they started from, for the Daleks to have forced the masters of time and space into committing omnicide is a victory in my book.

[NecronLord]

Beyond surviving in a war against the Time Lords long enough to attack Gallifrey and wreck their capital, of course.

So this makes them the Germans to the Time Lords' USSR. We know that Final Victory would have been the Time Lords', if it weren't for one particular Time Lord destroying both sides. Notice that the Dalek attacks have pretty clearly been fought off, by the fact that we see a big pile of destroyed Dalek ships around the capitol, and no ongoing battle.

Which was the equivalent of Davros' reality bomb, was it not? The Time Lords weren't exactly going to survive that, at least not in anything resembling their original form, if at all.

There's no evidence that they could have used a reality bomb in the war without getting TARDISes shoved up their arses. They couldn't stop a type 40 materialising in their control vault. How precisely would they have stopped a Time Lord attack on such a facility? Or, hell, the Time Lords using their own magnetron to remove the planets and laugh at them. And it wasn't exactly very subtle, it had to be placed in a strategic location (which the First Doctor sealed before becoming a renegade even, so it's known to the Time Lords) and the Doctor had no trouble working out what was going on when given one human companion, one Shadow Proclamation Computer, and ten minutes.

And why should they care about surviving in their original forms? It's pretty clear they expected their new forms to be better, and there's no reason to think they'd be incorrect.

That's like saying the US or Soviets wouldn't have won a war against the other because in the end of the other side would just destroy the planet with nukes. Regardless, the Daleks, and whatever else was involved in the Time War, pushed the Time Lords into a corner from which their only solution appears to have been "destroy reality and hope we ascend." Considering where they started from, for the Daleks to have forced the masters of time and space into committing omnicide is a victory in my book.

Why? Killing the enemy, ascending to godhood, that looks a lot like victory to me. What the fuck's this 'hope' crap? Are we now assuming they were just lying? Has properly maintained Time Lord technology ever failed to perform as advertised?

So basically, your argument is that the Daleks 'won' because the Time Lords had gone mad and were about to obliterate them? And in the very same paragraph you state that mutual annihilation doesn't count as a win, so even if the Final Sanction were some hilarious lie, it would still not be a Dalek victory.

[Shroom Man 777]

You gotta give the Daleks an E for effort, and credit for trying. Daleks being Daleks, I think they would've still tried - even if it meant ultimate crushing defeat - to kill their greatest enemy when the opportunity presented itself. I mean, if the Daleks knew that they could've never defeated the Time Lords and were themselves doomed to defeat, won't the Daleks - in their own twisted Dalek thinking - think that it's still worth it to attack the Time Lords anyway, to inflict the amount of damage we saw them did? Basically them saying "If we can't rule the universe, then there will BE no universe!"

And, damn. When it comes down to it, after the Doctor's solution on Galifrey, there were STILL more Daleks left than Time Lords. Right?

[NecronLord]

And, damn. When it comes down to it, after the Doctor's solution on Galifrey, there were STILL more Daleks left than Time Lords. Right?

And then the Time Lord Victorious killed them all as they appeared.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah, that really didn't go so well for their master plan.

Still, if it weren't for the Doctor's survival/involvement, the various Dalek survivors would've had a chance of recuperating the Dalek numbers - while most of the Time Lords stayed dead - and as we saw with the Dalek Emperor and the Cult of Skaaro, they could've tried giving "omnicidal megalomania" a second/third/fourth shot.

Question, though. How the fuck did Dalek Khan breech the Time Lock, allowing him to save the Dalek Supreme and Davros? And is that episode with Timothy Dalton as President of Time (Lords) worth watching? Am I missing out on a lot?

[NecronLord]

Still, if it weren't for the Doctor's survival/involvement,

Then Lord President James Bond would have inflicted the Final Sanction upon the Daleks and scourged them from existence.

And is that episode with Timothy Dalton as President of Time (Lords) worth watching? Am I missing out on a lot?

It's not as bad as some episodes, it's not great either. Better than the Reality Bomb one, I think.

[TC Pilot]

So basically, your argument is that the Daleks 'won' because the Time Lords had gone mad and were about to obliterate them?

Basically. Since the Time Lords couldn't win the war, Rassilon goes batshit and decides to destroy reality. It's a Dalek win in that they were doing well enough in a "conventional" war to force the Time Lords into that position.

[mr friendly guy]

TC pilot's definition of winning the war seems to depend on a few things

a. TL were pushed into a corner
b. unconventional means which includes universe destroying wank doesn't count because he says so
c. to consider universe destroying means = must be desperate


He seems to support the first assertion with statements like Daleks wrecking the TL capital even though we see the fucking capital intact protected by a forcefield with ruined Dalek saucers surrounding the capital.

The only other statements you could make regarding the TL being forced to a corner include the fact that two worlds Arcadia and the Crucible are mentioned to have fallen. However thats two worlds out a conflict which spanned space and time. The other battle mentioned by the Doctor was the destruction of Davros ship by the Nightmare child.

So given the scope of things I really can't see how he got this "pushed them into a corner" business. Unless you can come up with evidence of lots of battles going the Dalek's way no one but you is buying this.

The second assertion is just because he says so. Seriously its like the humans (from one of the many worlds) didn't defeat the Kromaggs from sliders because they had to use unconventional biological weapons, since they Kromags were superior in everything else. I don't know what definition of winning he uses, but mine is when the other side is either dead, surrendered or negotiated a settlement favourable to your side. It doesn't give a shit what method you have to use to get to the winning position.

The third point is most probably his better thought out one, as the TL most probably aren't the equivalent of human trigger happy extremist dropping nukes at the first sign of trouble. The problem is the Doctor outright stated what was more worrisome was the monsters spawned by the Time War and less the Daleks themselves, a statement which Rassilon didn't contradict. In fact he explained how he planned to win against all this.

Oh and when NL pointed out the TL weren't pushed in a corner, and were going to obliterate them shortly (with what TC pilot considers unconventional means) his argument boils down to but the other side isn't winning so my side must be... seriously the false dilemma there is so blatantly obvious.

[TC Pilot]

He seems to support the first assertion with statements like Daleks wrecking the TL capital even though we see the fucking capital intact protected by a forcefield with ruined Dalek saucers surrounding the capital.

What forcefield? You mean the shattered globe? Yeah, it's intact, in that it's still standing. Though since it's the last day of the Time War before the Doctor destroys everyone, it doesn't really scream "Time Lords victorious!" that their capital is on fire, their homeworld's got a multi-million Dalek fleet in orbit, and "Let's destroy the universe!" is the best solution Rassilon of all people can come up with.

The only other statements you could make regarding the TL being forced to a corner include the fact that two worlds Arcadia and the Crucible are mentioned to have fallen. However thats two worlds out a conflict which spanned space and time. The other battle mentioned by the Doctor was the destruction of Davros ship by the Nightmare child.

Here's a fun little quote from the episode: "And that's what you opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending." "My kind of world." "Just listen! Because even the Time Lords can't survive that!" Cue Rassilon's Evil Overlord speech.

The second assertion is just because he says so. Seriously its like the humans (from one of the many worlds) didn't defeat the Kromaggs from sliders because they had to use unconventional biological weapons, since they Kromags were superior in everything else. I don't know what definition of winning he uses, but mine is when the other side is either dead, surrendered or negotiated a settlement favourable to your side. It doesn't give a shit what method you have to use to get to the winning position.

Yeah, and in the final outcome they both lost, which I'm well aware of. Of course, since I've said what I think constitutes a win for the Daleks (doing well enough to force the TL omnicide), you don't have much of any point.

The problem is the Doctor outright stated what was more worrisome was the monsters spawned by the Time War and less the Daleks themselves

Pure speculation on your part. True, the Doctor only mentions the Daleks as one of many Time Lord-defeating threats, but it's rather obvious the Daleks were the Time Lords' main enemy through the whole thing. On the last day of the war, it's the Daleks who they're fighting against. It's the 10-million strong Dalek fleet that burns with Gallifrey.

[Stark]

It's arguable that the use of silly universe destruction suggests that the primary theatre of war - the vortex or control of 'time' - had already been won by the Daleks (or ceded by the Time Lords, whatever). By the time the Barriers are down and the fleet is bombing Gallifrey, it's pretty obvious the first-line weapons of a 'time war' (timescoops, time-loops, interventions, TARDISes, etc) have been defeated and can no longer defend the Time Lords from the relatively mundane threat of a few metal spaceships with bombs (which they should be able to trivially deal with). This means they are at that point weaker and less capable (for whatever reason) than during the Omega affair.

Of course, I figured it would have been dramatic for this to be due to the Time Lords being forced to expend all their energies fixing the massive universe-wide temporal damage of reckless Dalek time travel - sacrificing themselves to save the universe - rather than the pantomime unimaginative scenario we saw.

[mr friendly guy]

What forcefield? You mean the shattered globe? Yeah, it's intact, in that it's still standing. Though since it's the last day of the Time War before the Doctor destroys everyone, it doesn't really scream "Time Lords victorious!" that their capital is on fire, their homeworld's got a multi-million Dalek fleet in orbit, and "Let's destroy the universe!" is the best solution Rassilon of all people can come up with.

RTD himself said Skaro was also devastated and Dalek Caan itself mentioned it was gone, using your logic you should be crowing for the other side. Especially considering at this point TL homeworld was hurt but still standing while the Dalek one wasn't. In your mind one side must either be totally dominant and there is no such thing as you know stalemate, I mean whats that? I guess any one pointing out the war looks like a stalemate must be arguing "Time Lords victorious" because thats how your strawman works.

Why do you think the 10 million fleet is in orbit after we fail to see any? I mean if you said this after the events in S1 & 2 we get the impression the Doctor pulled the MAD switch with the Daleks right on top of Gallifrey to take our the Daleks as well I would agree with you. However after RTD retconned the events to say the Doctor pulled the MAD switch to stop the TL, and we see no Dalek fleet in orbit, and the fact that we know Gallifrey fell the day the cruciform fell to the Dalek Emperor (where the Cruciform is stated by RTD to be NOT on Gallifrey) I would say most the Dalek fleet is elsewhere, and the MAD weapon the Doctor pulled covered a wide area of space.

Here's a fun little quote from the episode: "And that's what you opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending." "My kind of world." "Just listen! Because even the Time Lords can't survive that!" Cue Rassilon's Evil Overlord speech.

Wow, selective quoting from a dishones turd. Why don't you quote what the Doctor said before this. You know the part how the last days of the war things were born eg the Skaro depradations etc which the Master was unaware of, and how the war turned into hell. The Master isn't impressed with being in "Hell" until the Doctor mentions even the TL can't survive these things.

That is the Time War only turned to hell after these monsters were spawned, and not before where the TL were only contesting with the Daleks. The fact that the TL kept fighting against the Daleks meant they thought they had a fair chance to win. The fact that they opted to press the ascend to god button in the face of these other threats meant they didn't see the same chances of winning.

Yeah, and in the final outcome they both lost, which I'm well aware of. Of course, since I've said what I think constitutes a win for the Daleks (doing well enough to force the TL omnicide), you don't have much of any point.

Hey, Iraq won the first Gulf War. Don't believe me, well I think its constitues a win for Iraq as long as Saddam remains in power for 5 years afterwards. Of course I am aware they lost by usual definitions of the word, but since I have said what I think constitutes a win for them anyone arguing otherwise doesn't have a point.

I am aware of your made up definition of winning. What I am arguing is that this definition of winning butchers the proper definition of the word to make the word meaningless. I know its a hard concept, but words actually have meanings. You are doing the same bullshit thing some religious people do by having the definition of religious be so generalised even atheists count as religious by their definition.

The very fact that you say they both lost then say but the Daleks won because you have to use a different definition of winning proves my point.

The problem is the Doctor outright stated what was more worrisome was the monsters spawned by the Time War and less the Daleks themselves

Pure speculation on your part. True, the Doctor only mentions the Daleks as one of many Time Lord-defeating threats, but it's rather obvious the Daleks were the Time Lords' main enemy through the whole thing. On the last day of the war, it's the Daleks who they're fighting against. It's the 10-million strong Dalek fleet that burns with Gallifrey.

Bullshit. See above. The War only turned into Hell after these horrors were born, not fucking before. If you are going to give the Doctor's opinion weight then you shouldn't selectively quote and include the other important things he said.

[TC Pilot]

RTD himself said Skaro was also devastated and Dalek Caan itself mentioned it was gone, using your logic you should be crowing for the other side. Especially considering at this point TL homeworld was hurt but still standing while the Dalek one wasn't. In your mind one side must either be totally dominant and there is no such thing as you know stalemate, I mean whats that? I guess any one pointing out the war looks like a stalemate must be arguing "Time Lords victorious" because thats how your strawman works.

Except Skaro being a wartorn hellhole was kinda the reason Davros built the Daleks in the first place.

And as Stark so nicely pointed out, given that Gallifrey had actually been opened up to conventional attacks at all represents a collosal failure on their part.

Why do you think the 10 million fleet is in orbit after we fail to see any? I mean if you said this after the events in S1 & 2 we get the impression the Doctor pulled the MAD switch with the Daleks right on top of Gallifrey to take our the Daleks as well I would agree with you. However after RTD retconned the events to say the Doctor pulled the MAD switch to stop the TL, and we see no Dalek fleet in orbit, and the fact that we know Gallifrey fell the day the cruciform fell to the Dalek Emperor (where the Cruciform is stated by RTD to be NOT on Gallifrey) I would say most the Dalek fleet is elsewhere, and the MAD weapon the Doctor pulled covered a wide area of space.

Between the Doctor's say-so and the fact the ground around the citadel is littered with Dalek ships, I'd say there's strong indications of a Dalek presence. There's also no reason to believe the Dalek fleet should neccesarily have appeared in the five minutes Gallifrey came back, since it's the only thing to have actually come through the time lock in that time anyway.

Though I have to wonder how the hell the Cruciform's capture being retconned to the same day as Gallifrey's fall makes any sense, considering the Master was there when it happened. I guess all those other threats weren't so threatening after all, if the Master didn't even know about them.

Wow, selective quoting from a dishones turd. Why don't you quote what the Doctor said before this. You know the part how the last days of the war things were born eg the Skaro depradations etc which the Master was unaware of, and how the war turned into hell. The Master isn't impressed with being in "Hell" until the Doctor mentions even the TL can't survive these things.

Hey fucktard, try actually reading the post you're responding to:

"True, the Doctor only mentions the Daleks as one of many Time Lord-defeating threats, but it's rather obvious the Daleks were the Time Lords' main enemy through the whole thing."

I'm sorry, what was that you were saying about dishonesty? Yeah, go fuck yourself.

That is the Time War only turned to hell after these monsters were spawned, and not before where the TL were only contesting with the Daleks.

So what? They're a product of the conflict between Time Lords and Daleks. An escalation of the war's ferocity isn't surprising at all, particularly when the war is by it's very nature a constantly repeating cycle of battles fought with time travel.

The fact that the TL kept fighting against the Daleks meant they thought they had a fair chance to win. The fact that they opted to press the ascend to god button in the face of these other threats meant they didn't see the same chances of winning.

Still more baseless speculating. At best, you can claim that cumulative weight of all these threats forced the Time Lords' hands, which ignores that the Daleks were fighting these other factions as much as the Time Lords were (Davros supposedly died at the hands of the Nightmare Child, remember?), and that the central conflict was always Daleks vs. Time Lords. It wasn't all these other threats that burned at "the furthest edge of the Time War," it was the Daleks.

I am aware of your made up definition of winning. What I am arguing is that this definition of winning butchers the proper definition of the word to make the word meaningless. I know its a hard concept, but words actually have meanings. You are doing the same bullshit thing some religious people do by having the definition of religious be so generalised even atheists count as religious by their definition.

Fantastic. So your argument basically comes down to being a blubbering little bitch. So you don't like how I set the conditions by which I judge the Daleks to have "beaten" the Time Lords? Too bad.

Edit - now that I think about it, the course of the conversation with NL and you has caused me to stray from "Daleks beat Time Lords" into an even more imprecise "Dalek victory." Bringing it back to my original way of wording it, I think, is more acceptable: Daleks "beat" the Time Lords in that they forced them to commit omnicide, while at the same time both lost the war.

Bullshit. See above. The War only turned into Hell after these horrors were born, not fucking before. If you are going to give the Doctor's opinion weight then you shouldn't selectively quote and include the other important things he said.

Already dealt with.

[NecronLord]

So, the Daleks beat the Time Lords like Japan beat the US by forcing them to use superweapons? I could use some enemies like that.

Or perhaps more accurate, if a thug forces a policeman to shoot him dead, that means the cop lost, because he wouldn't ordinarily do that,right? Even though the thug is dead and the cop goes home to his family, the thug wins...

[mr friendly guy]

Except Skaro being a wartorn hellhole was kinda the reason Davros built the Daleks in the first place.

And as Stark so nicely pointed out, given that Gallifrey had actually been opened up to conventional attacks at all represents a collosal failure on their part.

This equals Dalek winning as opposed to stalemate how exactly? Not to mention there is a difference between being a war torn hellhole and being even a worse shit hole, but hey lets stick with black and white fallacies, its soooo much easier to grasp.

Between the Doctor's say-so and the fact the ground around the citadel is littered with Dalek ships, I'd say there's strong indications of a Dalek presence. There's also no reason to believe the Dalek fleet should neccesarily have appeared in the five minutes Gallifrey came back, since it's the only thing to have actually come through the time lock in that time anyway.

Yes a 10 million fleet orbiting the world where not one even thinks to fire. In fact they just sit there casually letting Rassilon narrate the end of time part one, leisurely vote on a course of action etc. All it proves was that the Dalek assaulted the capital and took casualties in the past. By your perverse logic because China still occasionally finds some left over Japanese land mines it proves Japan still has a significant military presence in China.

Though I have to wonder how the hell the Cruciform's capture being retconned to the same day as Gallifrey's fall makes any sense, considering the Master was there when it happened. I guess all those other threats weren't so threatening after all, if the Master didn't even know about them.

Considering the Doctor knew other things the Master didn't like the end of the universe plan it would seem to suggest only one of them kept abreast of current affairs. However Rassilon didn't contradict the Doctor's claim so the TL higher ups agreed with that assessment.

Hey fucktard, try actually reading the post you're responding to:

"True, the Doctor only mentions the Daleks as one of many Time Lord-defeating threats, but it's rather obvious the Daleks were the Time Lords' main enemy through the whole thing."

I'm sorry, what was that you were saying about dishonesty? Yeah, go fuck yourself..

Oh look the cumstain can't read properly. The issue isn't who fought the TL for the longer period dumbass. Is was which threat finally made the TL decide to go fuck this, lets blow up the universe. The only on screen evidence we have states it was someone other than the Daleks. Where is your superior evidence? Oh thats right, selective quoting ignoring the part where the Doctor actually says who was threat they were more worried about.

So what? They're a product of the conflict between Time Lords and Daleks. An escalation of the war's ferocity isn't surprising at all, particularly when the war is by it's very nature a constantly repeating cycle of battles fought with time travel.

It proves it wasn't the daleks per se which finally made Rassilon throw in the towel dumbass.

Still more baseless speculating. At best, you can claim that cumulative weight of all these threats forced the Time Lords' hands, which ignores that the Daleks were fighting these other factions as much as the Time Lords were (Davros supposedly died at the hands of the Nightmare Child, remember?), and that the central conflict was always Daleks vs. Time Lords. It wasn't all these other threats that burned at "the furthest edge of the Time War," it was the Daleks.

Except of course the Doctor outright states it. The war turned into hell when these other threats appeared. Even the time lords can't survive that. Oh I forgot, when the Doctor says it its baseless speculating, except when it supports your argument of course.

Fantastic. So your argument basically comes down to being a blubbering little bitch. So you don't like how I set the conditions by which I judge the Daleks to have "beaten" the Time Lords? Tough shit. Cry about it on your own time.

Oh bull hoo. Dumbshit boy doesn't know the definition of winning and whines like a little piece of crap when people point out thats not the proper definition. BUT ITS MY DEFINITION. I AM RIGHT NA NA NA.

I know you are stupid so lets make this easy for you. Words have meaning as well as certain connotations. Winning has good connotations. By stating one side won when they didn't it creates a deceptive picture by making them look more impressive than they really are. The fact that you twist the definition of winning to suit your position means you are just a dishonest whining little dipshit who wants to be able to say his side "won" even when they didn't.

[Ugolino]

It proves it wasn't the daleks per se which finally made Rassilon throw in the towel dumbass.

Considering just how crazy the Rassilon in EoT was, he's probably not likely to make a rational decision. Citing his decision as evidence is like saying that the Master only decided to bring back the Toclafane because of the threat posed by humans.

[TC Pilot]

So, the Daleks beat the Time Lords like Japan beat the US by forcing them to use superweapons? I could use some enemies like that.

I'm thinking more along the lines of a hypothetical World War III: conventional fight turned nuclear because one side was about to lose. Not a perfect analogy, granted, given the Time Lord plan to "ascend." But still, as I've already said to you, I look at it in the context of where the respective sides come from. The Daleks go from being an admittedly dangerous threat, but one that the Time Lords wouldn't have had any more trouble expunging from time and space than, say, the Sontarans, to a force strong enough to go toe-to-toe with the Time Lords and force them into a last resort option of destroying the universe.

Would they have lost if the Time Lords had actually gone through with the Final Sanction? Yeah, probably. But when "destroy the universe" seems the best chance for the masters of time and space to come out on top, it's obvious things have gone pretty bad.

This equals Dalek winning as opposed to stalemate how exactly?

Do you have any evidence of stalemate, just throwing that around to be an annoying contrarion??

Not to mention there is a difference between being a war torn hellhole and being even a worse shit hole, but hey lets stick with black and white fallacies, its soooo much easier to grasp.

Or you can actually add some content into your insubstantial garbage. How is Skaro "devastated" and what, if any relevance, does it matter to a species engineered precisely because the planet was so horribly fucked up to neccesitate the creation of something like the Daleks in the first place?

Yes a 10 million fleet orbiting the world where not one even thinks to fire. In fact they just sit there casually letting Rassilon narrate the end of time part one, leisurely vote on a course of action etc.

Typical Trektard-level argument: we don't see it so it can't possibly exist.

All it proves was that the Dalek assaulted the capital and took casualties in the past.

Guess the Time Lords are really up shit creek if they can't even put out the fires in their own capital then.

Though from the looks of the surface in the orbital shots, looks like Gallifrey's sustained BDZ-level damage.

Considering the Doctor knew other things the Master didn't like the end of the universe plan it would seem to suggest only one of them kept abreast of current affairs. However Rassilon didn't contradict the Doctor's claim so the TL higher ups agreed with that assessment.

Or the Time Lords took it back only to lose it again.

Oh look the cumstain can't read properly. The issue isn't who fought the TL for the longer period dumbass. Is was which threat finally made the TL decide to go fuck this, lets blow up the universe.

You tried to accuse me of dishonestly ignoring the other threats, despite the fact I explicitely cite them as "Time Lord-defeating threats" in the same fucking post. In short, go fuck yourself and come back when you can learn to read.

The only on screen evidence we have states it was someone other than the Daleks. Where is your superior evidence? Oh thats right, selective quoting ignoring the part where the Doctor actually says who was threat they were more worried about.

Funny how you can't be arsed to quote it. Probably because you know you're just a lying sack of shit at this point and realize you're just bullshitting your way through. So let's look at the actual quote:

"You weren't there, in the final days of the war. You never saw what was born. But if the time lock's broken then everything's coming through, not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travisties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-have-been King and his Army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres. The war turned into hell. And that's you've opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending!"
"My kind of world."
"Just listen! Because even the Time Lords can't survive that!"

In short, and as I've already said, your attempt to equate the Time Lord "defeat" solely to these other threats, which we know fought the Daleks as much as the Time Lords, is blatantly dishonest on its face.

It proves it wasn't the daleks per se which finally made Rassilon throw in the towel dumbass.

And as everyone but you seems to know, the war was always primarily one between Daleks and Time Lords.

*snip skidmark's crying

Whoopdeefucking doo. Jerk off to your inane nitpicking on your own time. Though I wouldn't be surprised if you can't; you're compensating awfully hard at this point.