Anti-Gay Republican Booed At CPAC Event...

[eion]

What evidence do you have that gay bashing is stopped by the carrying of concealed weapons? I how many cases of being jumped upon leaving a bar or whatever would you even have time to draw a weapon anyway?

The U.S. Department of Justice paid for a survey of 1,874 incarcerated felons from 1982-1983. While the relevant document "Armed Criminals in America - A Survey of Incarcerated Felons" is not available online its reference information is here. The authors of that document also published a book based on the same survey titled Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms. Page 15 states: "...three fifths agreed that "most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police." About two fifths of the sample reported at least one armed victim encounter at some time in their careers; just over one third said that they had personally been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim." About two fifths reported having decided at least once in their lives not to commit a crime because they had reason to suspect that the intended victim was armed."

That makes this sound quite sensible to me.

Not having the ability to read the survey online, perhaps you can tell me: how many of the felons surveyed were imprisoned for assaulting homosexuals? Robbery is carried out under very different circumstances than gay-bashing. As Plekhanov said, these assaults can happen very quickly, and if gay people become known for carrying weapons to defend themselves one of two things could happen:

a) attacks go down out of fear of instant reprisal

b) attackers switch to different tactics like surprise, or carrying weapons themselves and dispensing their victims on site rather than drawing the crime out

[Plekhanov]

What evidence do you have that gay bashing is stopped by the carrying of concealed weapons? I how many cases of being jumped upon leaving a bar or whatever would you even have time to draw a weapon anyway?

The U.S. Department of Justice paid for a survey of 1,874 incarcerated felons from 1982-1983. While the relevant document "Armed Criminals in America - A Survey of Incarcerated Felons" is not available online its reference information is here. The authors of that document also published a book based on the same survey titled Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms. Page 15 states: "...three fifths agreed that "most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police." About two fifths of the sample reported at least one armed victim encounter at some time in their careers; just over one third said that they had personally been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim." About two fifths reported having decided at least once in their lives not to commit a crime because they had reason to suspect that the intended victim was armed."

That makes this sound quite sensible to me.

"Thirty-one states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "
--Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

So if as you claim criminals are deterred by the prospect of their victims carrying guns can you demonstrate that gay bashing is less common in states which allow concealed carrying or in localities surrounding pink pistols groups?

[Liberty]

Hopefully, this is an indication of some progress at the GOP. I really doubt it will amount to something, but I hope it will.

GOPers have disavowed overt gay bashing for quite a while now, but it's no different than the GOP booing the KKK. Yes, they dislike the in-your-face type of homophobia, but lower-level homophobia is different.

Sure. However, young people (god, saying this makes me feel old) nowadays get introduced via the media to gay people far more than say....ten years ago. I mean, I hardly can think of a show that did not have some gay/bisexual character on it. So I am hoping that this is an indication of changing values.

I'd like to see studies on it, but what I have seen indicates that younger people often turn out less extreme than their parents. Today, young people are decidedly less homophobic, for instance. Also, to draw on my area of research, homeschooling, a recent study of six Christian homeschool families by Robert Kunzman found that in each family the children were less dogmatic and extreme in their beliefs than were their parents, even though the parents often homeschooled specifically to teach their children their beliefs.

But then, there are some fucking insane young Republicans out there, so maybe I'm wrong...

[Lord Insanity]

Not having the ability to read the survey online, perhaps you can tell me: how many of the felons surveyed were imprisoned for assaulting homosexuals? Robbery is carried out under very different circumstances than gay-bashing. As Plekhanov said, these assaults can happen very quickly, and if gay people become known for carrying weapons to defend themselves one of two things could happen:

a) attacks go down out of fear of instant reprisal

b) attackers switch to different tactics like surprise, or carrying weapons themselves and dispensing their victims on site rather than drawing the crime out

Well if this "gun loony" site is accurate, here is the summary of the National Institute of Justice report. If you scroll down a little there is an ASCII chart breakdown of how the criminals in the survey were armed. 39 percent weren't armed at all and 50 percent didn't have a gun. Guess that explains away what I previously cited. Obviously two fifths of criminals are going to avoid committing a crime if they think the victim is armed if they aren't armed themselves.

So if as you claim criminals are deterred by the prospect of their victims carrying guns can you demonstrate that gay bashing is less common in states which allow concealed carrying or in localities surrounding pink pistols groups?

I doubt there is any reliable research on the subject. What I previously posted would strongly suggest that is the case but the above sort of explains that away. I am just going to concede the point because I don't really have access to any reliable data on the subject and we are really derailing this thread.

Regardless of whether the Pink Pistols rationale is accurate or not, it still illustrates why a homosexual that believes it might be a Republican though.

[Plekhanov]

So if as you claim criminals are deterred by the prospect of their victims carrying guns can you demonstrate that gay bashing is less common in states which allow concealed carrying or in localities surrounding pink pistols groups?

I doubt there is any reliable research on the subject. What I previously posted would strongly suggest that is the case but the above sort of explains that away. I am just going to concede the point because I don't really have access to any reliable data on the subject and we are really derailing this thread.

"strongly suggest" really? This two decades old survey of criminals, not violent hate criminals 'strongly suggests' your conclusions does it?

Regardless of whether the Pink Pistols rationale is accurate or not, it still illustrates why a homosexual that believes it might be a Republican though.

If your primary concern as a gay voter was hate crime do you really think that you'd see concealed carry laws as the most important policy issue concerning this problem? Instead of for example:
- Elected representatives fighting not stoking up hatred against LGBTs and seeking to use the power of the state to do the same
- The authorities treating LGBTs as full citizens and taking crimes against them seriously

[Tanasinn]

b) attackers switch to different tactics like surprise, or carrying weapons themselves and dispensing their victims on site rather than drawing the crime out

That shit already happens. Anyway, in a choice between being beaten half to death and tied to a post to die in the night/being dragged by a chain from a truck to my death and simply being shot, I know what I'd choose.

[eion]

b) attackers switch to different tactics like surprise, or carrying weapons themselves and dispensing their victims on site rather than drawing the crime out

That shit already happens. Anyway, in a choice between being beaten half to death and tied to a post to die in the night/being dragged by a chain from a truck to my death and simply being shot, I know what I'd choose.

Most gay bashings are still straight battery, without the use of firearms. These attacks are brutal, they are morally reprehensible, and they must be wiped out, but many victims live through them.

Scared, broken, and requiring counseling for years, but they live.

Violent reprisal won't necessarily reduce the number of hate crimes; it may only reduce the number of survivors.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

b) attackers switch to different tactics like surprise, or carrying weapons themselves and dispensing their victims on site rather than drawing the crime out

That shit already happens. Anyway, in a choice between being beaten half to death and tied to a post to die in the night/being dragged by a chain from a truck to my death and simply being shot, I know what I'd choose.

Most gay bashings are still straight battery, without the use of firearms. These attacks are brutal, they are morally reprehensible, and they must be wiped out, but many victims live through them.

Scared, broken, and requiring counseling for years, but they live.

Violent reprisal won't necessarily reduce the number of hate crimes; it may only reduce the number of survivors.

Whatever. I've been attacked by an armed person before and I charged him and I'm still alive. HAving more aggression and dealing out more violence is always the only sure way to have any kind of chance at all to survive a fight. And I didn't end up scared, or broken, or requiring counseling. People like this pick on homosexuals (and transwomen) because they're seen as effeminate and thus weak and easy targets for their bigotry. If you display confidence and elan in attacking them they usually run away. And if I was attacked by a group I'm probably dead anyway, since group violence is much, much worse in general, even against straight people, so I'm going to grab a rock or whatever I can and die bashing in the head of one of them. Is much preferable, as noted, to dying getting dragged behind a pickup truck.

And most importantly, this isn't reprisal. This isn't the gay mafia going around with tommy guns machine-gunning people who have previously bashed gays. This is straightforward self defence. Do you seriously think these people PLOT these attacks out? That they look up statistics of people who have suffered from hate crimes and fought back and think "Hrmm, this is risky, I better bring a gun?"

They're usually drunks or high on some kind of drug and then one of them is like "Hey, dude, let's go to the gay bar and beat the shit out of some queers". It is MORE likely that self-defence against robbery will result in more robbers carrying guns and murdering people, than it is with hate crimes, because robbery is a rational act done by oftentimes veritable professional criminals. Hate crimes are spur of the macho violence that has all of the forethought to it of two junkyard dogs having a throwdown.

Does that mean however that someone who votes based purely on the 2nd amendment is anything other than a retard? Fuck no. But until hate crimes are at infestimal levels, being armed is the best way to survive.

[eion]

Whatever. I've been attacked by an armed person before and I charged him and I'm still alive. HAving more aggression and dealing out more violence is always the only sure way to have any kind of chance at all to survive a fight. And I didn't end up scared, or broken, or requiring counseling. People like this pick on homosexuals (and transwomen) because they're seen as effeminate and thus weak and easy targets for their bigotry. If you display confidence and elan in attacking them they usually run away. And if I was attacked by a group I'm probably dead anyway, since group violence is much, much worse in general, even against straight people, so I'm going to grab a rock or whatever I can and die bashing in the head of one of them. Is much preferable, as noted, to dying getting dragged behind a pickup truck.

And most importantly, this isn't reprisal. This isn't the gay mafia going around with tommy guns machine-gunning people who have previously bashed gays. This is straightforward self defence. Do you seriously think these people PLOT these attacks out? That they look up statistics of people who have suffered from hate crimes and fought back and think "Hrmm, this is risky, I better bring a gun?"

They're usually drunks or high on some kind of drug and then one of them is like "Hey, dude, let's go to the gay bar and beat the shit out of some queers". It is MORE likely that self-defence against robbery will result in more robbers carrying guns and murdering people, than it is with hate crimes, because robbery is a rational act done by oftentimes veritable professional criminals. Hate crimes are spur of the macho violence that has all of the forethought to it of two junkyard dogs having a throwdown.

Does that mean however that someone who votes based purely on the 2nd amendment is anything other than a retard? Fuck no. But until hate crimes are at infestimal levels, being armed is the best way to survive.

Well argued. Quite convincing. I'd still prefer to have politicians who want to uphold my right to exist and to carry weapons defensively.