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Elfdart wrote:Her hair was pinned up in a bun, so is it much of a stretch for her to have pulled one of the pins and used it?

With her fucking mouth? Yes.

The IMAX version was great, though. They cut about 15-20 minutes (and the number of times Padme says "Oh Annie!") and it felt more like a Star Wars movie.

SEE! I knew the IMAX was different! I saw it there the first time and remembered actually liking the movie. I couldn't figure out what happened after I saw it again, but I swore to Jenn that the IMAX verison was different.

I mean, she would have pulled the pin with her hands, put it in her mouth, then picked the lock. I've seen people thread needles like that before. It's not that odd.

Elfdart wrote:I mean, she would have pulled the pin with her hands, put it in her mouth, then picked the lock. I've seen people thread needles like that before. It's not that odd.

Yeah I know it isn't impossible, I'm just saying, when the fuck did this woman, who became Queen at 13, then spent all her time in politics after that, learn this little skill. It is ridiculous.

Havok wrote:

Elfdart wrote:I mean, she would have pulled the pin with her hands, put it in her mouth, then picked the lock. I've seen people thread needles like that before. It's not that odd.

Yeah I know it isn't impossible, I'm just saying, when the fuck did this woman, who became Queen at 13, then spent all her time in politics after that, learn this little skill. It is ridiculous.

She's the Jill Valentine of Star Wars.

BTW, this Havok is the one I know, not that guy defending TPM in the other thread.

Thanks man.

I'm not defending the movie, so much as the character actions and reactions in universe. That is why I don't really argue against the bad writing points, because I technically agree with them. Regardless of how I feel about the writing though, it established what the characters have done, for better or worse. I'm looking at it like they are real people not written characters, if that makes sense.

Patroklos wrote:There are plenty of women in the order and he has been traveling the galaxy on missions for years.

Not to mention that cocktease Aayla Secura. Seriously, is she encouraged to dress that way to keep the male Jedi on their toes?

Havok wrote:

Elfdart wrote:I mean, she would have pulled the pin with her hands, put it in her mouth, then picked the lock. I've seen people thread needles like that before. It's not that odd.

Yeah I know it isn't impossible, I'm just saying, when the fuck did this woman, who became Queen at 13, then spent all her time in politics after that, learn this little skill. It is ridiculous.

Probably in the same school where she and her handmaidens learned to be such crack shots with pistols.

The cut 15 to 20 minutes? Wow.

My god. Could that Jedi lets all activate our lightsabers individually scene look any more fan filmish? It is fucking horrible.

Oh I know. So embarassing to watch.

I have one shot for you, and I want you to tell me what it is:-

"HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!"

As for AotC, I like it better than TPM. Its true that it doesn't look as good as TPM (that would be because TPM is the best looking prequel movie, period, before Lucas got it on too much with the digital and all that shit) though. More thoughts later.

Vympel wrote:The cut 15 to 20 minutes? Wow.

My god. Could that Jedi lets all activate our lightsabers individually scene look any more fan filmish? It is fucking horrible.

Oh I know. So embarassing to watch.

But surely you liked seeing all those Jedi strike their kewl individual poses...right?

My general opinion on AOTC is that, once they start kicking ass, it improves dramatically (that is, once, Anakin goes genocidal). I personally liked Yoda's ass kicking of Dooku, and the final reveal of the Imperial March.

I also found the camera zooms cute, as in "Look, they are trying to pretend there's an actual camera filming this, as if this was a documentary or something! Awwwwwww".

Personally, I thought AOTC was worse than TPM. Its problems start with the fact that TPM gives it basically nothing to work off of, but then only goes downhill from there. Yes, there's less Jar Jar, but he's still there and as annoying as ever. There's absolutely no immersion into the story, yet we're supposed to believe the Republic's in the middle of a huge secession crisis. We're supposed to believe Padme's life is in danger, yet the guy who she accuses of the crime doesn't even show up until the movie's 3/4 of the way done. Not only is the romance annoying, it's basically unbelievable. The dialouge is terrible, not just in the romance scenes, but in general (Dooku's "It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber" springs to mind).

Just about the only saving grace is the arena battle/land battle, and even that is undermined by that awful Artoo/Threepio sketch. The last thing I want when watching a bunch of sword-wielding mages fight an army of robots is puns.

That said, quite a few of the deleted scenes, Padme's family and Padme in the Senate off the top of my head, ought to have been left in, in my opinion.

What makes it worse TC, is that A New Hope gave Empire almost nothing to work off as well and it ended up being, arguably, and in my opinion, the best movie in the franchise. The structure of TPM is basically the same as ANH, and yet Lucas completely dropped the ball, or more appropriately, didn't drop it, which in my view is the problem with the prequels, with AOTC.

The movie literally makes me cringe and roll my eyes. That doesn't happen very often.

I liked AotC better than TPM at first, as in "neither movie is really great but AotC has Slave I kicking ass, so extra points."

Then I took a screenwriting class.

Man, AotC is a MESS. It really suffers having to plausibly cover the gap between TPM and RotS. Of course, TPM should have been planned out a little better in the context of the saga as a whole, but that doesn't make AotC's faults not AotC's fault.

And I went on the WHY DON'T THE JEDI FIGURE OUT WHO'S BEHIND THE CLONE ARMY rant right after I saw the movie for the second time. It is the biggest logic hole in the saga.

Since I was on a swordfighting rant during the last post, I have to mention the Arena battle. God, that was an atrocity. Seriously, words cannot describe how awful most of the Jedi were at fighting; it was clear simply from the brief glimpses we got.

We saw Jedi running through autofire with their lightsabers fucking raised overhead. We saw some idiot landing before two battle droids, lurch to her feet, and then twirl at the droids to score a glancing blow. We see awkward stances, refusal to work as anything other than individuals, embarrassing attempts at proper kicks (which would be suboptimal in this situation even if adequately performed). We even see that some Jedi can't hold their fucking weapons properly - something you learn to do instinctively after a week or so training. The Jedi we see in this movie are, with the exception of the main cast, by and large a tasteless joke. They don't even have an apparent objective; they just seem to vaguely mill around cutting at air and occasionally in the general direction of battle droids.

But the arena scene is not all bad, I must admit. Sam Jackson actually does very well; no frills, no fancy movement, just a straight-line advance toward the enemy, followed by judicious surgery. Anakin uses power-based techniques, but clean ones, which is appropriate; Obi-Wan does indulge in a bit of nonsense, but Ewan McGregor manages to sell us on the focused attitude that so many of the extras completely lack.

Rob Brown, despite his failings, delivered an account on the filming of the arena battle with which I can't really disagree. He described most of the stock Jedi as essentially reenactors with delusions of adequacy, and contended that the competent practitioners were cut. Looking at (random example) the travesty of two-sword fighting we see in this scene, I can well believe it.

Out of curiosity, in the non movie supporting material do they ever describe a mechanism for the start of hostilities other than the Geonosians executing a tresspassing criminal and his girlfriend for espionage and killing a dozen of their citizens?

It seems like a pretty underwhelming event to justify starting a war that probably killed trillions.

Eleas wrote:Since I was on a swordfighting rant during the last post, I have to mention the Arena battle. God, that was an atrocity. Seriously, words cannot describe how awful most of the Jedi were at fighting; it was clear simply from the brief glimpses we got.

Why? Because you say so?

We saw Jedi running through autofire with their lightsabers fucking raised overhead. We saw some idiot landing before two battle droids, lurch to her feet, and then twirl at the droids to score a glancing blow. We see awkward stances, refusal to work as anything other than individuals, embarrassing attempts at proper kicks (which would be suboptimal in this situation even if adequately performed). We even see that some Jedi can't hold their fucking weapons properly - something you learn to do instinctively after a week or so training. The Jedi we see in this movie are, with the exception of the main cast, by and large a tasteless joke. They don't even have an apparent objective; they just seem to vaguely mill around cutting at air and occasionally in the general direction of battle droids.

So there's a proper technique for wielding a purely fanciful weapon? What is the right way grab a lightsabre? Is there a school or training manual for this?

But the arena scene is not all bad, I must admit. Sam Jackson actually does very well; no frills, no fancy movement, just a straight-line advance toward the enemy, followed by judicious surgery. Anakin uses power-based techniques, but clean ones, which is appropriate; Obi-Wan does indulge in a bit of nonsense, but Ewan McGregor manages to sell us on the focused attitude that so many of the extras completely lack.

Holy shit! Extras aren't given the same level of detail as the main characters?
Say it ain't so!

Rob Brown, despite his failings, delivered an account on the filming of the arena battle with which I can't really disagree. He described most of the stock Jedi as essentially reenactors with delusions of adequacy, and contended that the competent practitioners were cut. Looking at (random example) the travesty of two-sword fighting we see in this scene, I can well believe it.

Who is Rob Brown and why should I care what he thinks? Let me guess, he knows how to handle REAL lightsabres.

Vympel wrote:The cut 15 to 20 minutes? Wow.

Back then, IMAX movies had to be under two hours. They cut some of the office scenes, some of the "Oh, Annies!", the Sound of Music scene IIRC, the scene with the fruit, and one or two of the landing scenes. It was faster-paced.

Then again, my favorite part of the movie is a scene that causes fanboys to shit their pants in anger: When Anakin leans over to kiss Padme, she pulls away and John Williams' lovey-dovey music stops cold. That should have tipped off the slower members of the audience that the scenes are supposed to be campy but then, they aren't the brightest people now are they?

I just checked the DVD and I have to concede she is holding the lock pick in her mouth. She seems to be holding it still though and doing the actual picking by manoeuvring the cuff on her wrist. Still rather silly, though. And it takes her a lot longer to do the other one, even when she has her hand free.

And apparently have a quartet of massive fucking gashes down your back does nothing to impede your fighting ability.

Patroklos wrote:Out of curiosity, in the non movie supporting material do they ever describe a mechanism for the start of hostilities other than the Geonosians executing a tresspassing criminal and his girlfriend for espionage and killing a dozen of their citizens?

In an earlier draft of the screenplay, the motivation for going to war was better explained. The Separatists were building up a massive droid army. When Obi-Wan discovered the army, he informed the Chancellor of a massive military build-up and imminent attack on the Republic. In dialogue that was cut from the final draft, the Chancellor and the Jedi discuss the situation. They basically take the massive Separatist military build-up as a blatant act of war, and realize they have no choice but to immediately make use of the clone army. So the casus belli here was the Separatist military build-up and imminent attack, not merely the trial for espionage on Geonosis.

Why? Because you say so?

Because the evidence makes it painfully obvious, much in the same way you wouldn't portray a futuristic painter genius by having him gibber and eat his fucking crayons. Sorry, unfortunate choice of pronoun there: what you would choose to do, deeply stupid as you are, is anyone's guess.

So there's a proper technique for wielding a purely fanciful weapon?

Jesus, this is stupidity taken to a new and sadder level. Tell me, what are the proper tactics for employing a purely fanciful starship? What about a purely fanciful technology? A material? A culture?

Looks like you just argued that anything goes, child. Which kinda makes me wonder why you pretend (if tenuously) to employ the rules of logic at all. After all, this is a purely fanciful universe.

Holy shit! Extras aren't given the same level of detail as the main characters?
Say it ain't so!

This is a bit odd. Usually you make an effort at disguising your dishonesty, but with such an obvious strawman I have to wonder if you're even trying.

It has -- of course -- nothing to do with detail or script. It has to do with the fact that if you hire stunt people for a big fucking movie, they should display the skills and conditioning necessary to pull off rudimentary stunts. It's not rocket science. It's not even science. It's observation, and evident to all except the yourself and the brain-dead.

Who is Rob Brown and why should I care what he thinks? Let me guess, he knows how to handle REAL lightsabres.

Those being two questions, I shall reply to them in order:

• Rob Brown, like myself, has experience with the sword and has studied the movie footage without licking at the screen and fawning over Anakin's tight backside. This is something you might wish to try; think of it as a new experience.
• What you choose to care about is up to you. For my own part, I didn't address you in any sense. Given that you not only refuse to contribute to the discussion in any measure, and provide neither insight nor entertainment, you are inconsequential to me. I reply only to stave off potentially wittier trolls who might otherwise, spurred by the apparent success of asinine one-liners, follow in your footsteps.

Eleas wrote:

So there's a proper technique for wielding a purely fanciful weapon?

Jesus, this is stupidity taken to a new and sadder level. Tell me, what are the proper tactics for employing a purely fanciful starship? What about a purely fanciful technology? A material? A culture?

You tell me -you're the expert. While you're at it you can tell us the proper technique for sprinkling fairy dust.

It has -- of course -- nothing to do with detail or script. It has to do with the fact that if you hire stunt people for a big fucking movie, they should display the skills and conditioning necessary to pull off rudimentary stunts. It's not rocket science. It's not even science. It's observation, and evident to all except the yourself and the brain-dead.

They're glorified extras for fuck's sake!

Who is Rob Brown and why should I care what he thinks? Let me guess, he knows how to handle REAL lightsabres.

Those being two questions, I shall reply to them in order:

• Rob Brown, like myself, has experience with the sword

While that might impress dungeon masters and Renaissance Fair rejects, it has zilch to do with wielding a fictional weapon that can parry gunshots.

and has studied the movie footage without licking at the screen and fawning over Anakin's tight backside.

Project often?

This is something you might wish to try; think of it as a new experience.

I have better things to do than freeze-frame a movie to see if the extras are holding their weapons "properly" based on the word of one extra who apparently likes to look down his nose at other extras.

[*] What you choose to care about is up to you. For my own part, I didn't address you in any sense.

At least you admit it.

Given that you not only refuse to contribute to the discussion in any measure, and provide neither insight nor entertainment, you are inconsequential to me. I reply only to stave off potentially wittier trolls who might otherwise, spurred by the apparent success of asinine one-liners, follow in your footsteps.[/list]

Sounds to me like you got sand in your twat.

Are you seriously claiming that twirling around is essential to the functioning of a lightsaber? Do tell how you came to this downright amazing conclusion. While you're at it, explain how making glancing cuts is an effective use of an edged weapon, particularly against opponents that do not bleed.

Now, you may say "well, it isn't really important you NERD" or whatever, but then why argue about it? General pissiness? A desire to boldly defend minor details?

When it comes to fanciful weapons, the lightsaber is not an incredibly arcane one. It is a straight-bladed sword, about one meter in length, and we can conclude certain aspects of its proper operation from that. Its lack of guards or hilt adds further details about its proper use, and observing the weapon's characteristics when in use gives us our final set of clues. If we saw Stormtroopers shooting their blasters "gangsta-style", or holding them upside-down, would you try to claim that such is essential for shooting a blaster properly, especially when we see everybody else shoot them differently?

The way the Jedi wield their lightsabres sometimes seems more appropriate for a metal blade that requires force or thrust to inflict damage, rather than a beam of energy which can prove fatal merely by passively coming into contact with it. Consider Mace Windu's attempted fatal blow at Palpatine. Mace raises his arm and then thrusts the blade downwards toward Palpatine to kill him. But why not just poke him gently in the face? Why is any force required at all? Compare this to the way Han effortlessly disemboweled the Tauntaun in Empire Strikes Back. He barely applied any force; he just gently slid the blade across the animal's underside.

We can also chalk it up to them being more worried about sword technique as an art form rather than a form of combat.

Centuries of arrogance and general lack of need for their services tend to render elite warrior classes ineffective as a fighting force and rather focused more on their function as a caste. Look at all the needless pomp and ceremony of the Samurai, especially in their later years. This doesn't matter when you are fighting against like minded opponents in "combat" that resembles a choreographed ceremony, but is certainly does when you are facing an opponent that could care less about your lofty notions of art and just wants to kill you as practically as possible.

The Jedi got weak, and it was limited to combat technique. They paid the price.

Elfdart wrote:

Jesus, this is stupidity taken to a new and sadder level. Tell me, what are the proper tactics for employing a purely fanciful starship? What about a purely fanciful technology? A material? A culture?

You tell me -you're the expert.

Oh no, I wouldn't pretend to be an expert at rebutting morons. I've simply been exposed to your kind a few times before, meaning I can easily determine when they so flagrantly ignore the rules of the debate.

<snip further "points" reliant on Elfdart ignoring the bulk of SDNet debate rules>

Channel72 wrote:The way the Jedi wield their lightsabres sometimes seems more appropriate for a metal blade that requires force or thrust to inflict damage, rather than a beam of energy which can prove fatal merely by passively coming into contact with it.

Finally, a point worth responding to. You're absolute right; however, we can clearly observe, as Rob Brown did, that lightsabers require some amount of force to cleave through an object. Anakin's blows are clearly useful in that regard, because they provide massive cutting power and allow for a stable stance.

If you twirl a weapon in melee, you will lose control, you'll present a predictable pattern, and you waste energy. There's no noticeable gain except showiness that barely would intimidate an amateur, and the droids about as impressed as one could expect.