Imperium of Man vs Galactic Empire.

[Kuroji]

Good point.

[Vendetta]

Khorne only benefits if you're doing it for the sake of doing it. He doesn't benefit when, for example, the Guard is hitting Tyranids to keep them from overrunning a planet.

Nope, the tricksy part about the Chaos Gods is that whenever you do their thing, they benefit.

This is why Eldar are never allowed to have any fun ever.

[Shroom Man 777]

You CAN slag the rest of the world so that the shielded portions of the planet sinks into the lava.

Also, re: Warp. Whose to say that SW humans affect the Warp in the same way as the Tau, i.e. not at all? If the billions of sentients in SW don't manifest any Warp-based effects despite their minds and subconscious whatevers, then this means that SW humans and sentients are very much unlike 40k ones whose minds and whatevers DO manifest Warp-whatevers.

[Simon_Jester]

They've got a number of different methods depending how they want to finish things, from just shooting it with general onboard weapons for that good old fashioned BDZ feel, to torpedoes which'll destroy everything organic on the planet without exception, to torpedoes that are specifically designed as planet crackers. Technically, anything that removes life from the planet counts as Exterminatus. It's just how much of a hurry they're in and whether they want to make an example particularly strongly, I think. But I don't think they've got anything quite on par with the Death Star even with Dark Age tech.

Though cyclonic torpedoes come pretty close in their actual effect: blowing planets into debris field. They can truly destroy a planet if they care that much, but they really have to work for it.

When it comes down to it, the GE's probably got a serious edge in intel. I was totally disregarding any intel, putting the GE and IoM in a jar and shaking it to see what would happen. Even if targeted assassinations would be carried out, that wouldn't have enough of an effect on the GE's war machine to stop it, or even slow it down significantly, unless you can avoid getting force-choked by Vader when you sneak onto the Executor's bridge somehow. And his loss won't do very much harm anyways, the only one that would is Palpatine. I think he's smart enough to stay on Coruscant, the Death Star or somewhere else remote just in case.

It is... actually conceivable that an Imperium assassin could take down Palpatine. They're pretty insane. But it's so tremendously unlikely that I'd never suggest it as a likely outcome.

Another major advantage the Empire has is that they're a more objective, rational society when it comes to threat assessment. The Imperium isn't as big an outside-context problem for them as the Empire is for the Imperium.

This is one of the big advantages Cortez enjoyed against the Aztecs, for instance. While Montezuma was busy worrying whether Cortez was the reincarnation of an ancient god, Cortez was analyzing Aztec society and figuring how to break it apart along its natural fault lines. By the time the Aztecs had gotten over the "wait, is he a god?" reaction and decided to do something about Cortez, it was too late.

Likewise, the Imperium may take much far too long to come up with an intelligent response to the Empire, because their long strategic decision cycle will get in the way and because their people in the rear areas will be thinking "purge the xenos, and if that doesn't work purge harder!"

You CAN slag the rest of the world so that the shielded portions of the planet sinks into the lava.

Also, re: Warp. Whose to say that SW humans affect the Warp in the same way as the Tau, i.e. not at all? If the billions of sentients in SW don't manifest any Warp-based effects despite their minds and subconscious whatevers, then this means that SW humans and sentients are very much unlike 40k ones whose minds and whatevers DO manifest Warp-whatevers.

Maybe the Warp is just stronger in some sense in 40k space, such that psychic effects that wouldn't be noticeable in the SW galaxy are very noticeable in the 40k galaxy. I mean, you can draw a lot of similarities between the effects of the Force and the effects of the Warp. Both do weird things to your mind, both let you fire bolts of energy from your hands, both let you contact people over long distances, both surround and penetrate all life (and not in a good way, in the case of 40k).

They're not actually all that different in the broad sense, it's just that the Warp is way, way stronger than the Force. Correspondingly, it twists your personality farther, lets you fire bigger bolts of energy, and so on.

So there are two very obvious explanations for how this works in 40k that don't make SW humans immune.

One possibility is that just about all intelligent life in 40k has relatively high Force sensitivity, in Star Wars terms. Most of them still aren't actually at Jedi level, but proportionately there are far more of them who are. And you've got lots of not-actually-psychic people whose Force abilities are manifesting as improbable levels of awesomeness and luck (which helps to explain the heroic single combat and all).

Another is that life in both galaxies interacts with the Force/Warp with more or less the same strength, but that the Warp itself is inherently stronger in the 40k Milky Way. In other words, in 40k terms, the Galaxy Far, Far Away is a "calm" zone in the Warp, one where psyker abilities don't work as well, where daemons don't manifest as huge monsters, one where you can interact with the "Warp" (that is, the Force) without being turned into something completely inhuman by its mindbending effects.

Neither of those options is good from the point of view of the Empire. Either they're charging into the midst of a horde of people who are all much stronger in the Force than they are, on average... or they're charging out of their safe little bubble of quiet-Warp space into a larger universe where things are much more fucked up.

[Kuroji]

Another is that life in both galaxies interacts with the Force/Warp with more or less the same strength, but that the Warp itself is inherently stronger in the 40k Milky Way. In other words, in 40k terms, the Galaxy Far, Far Away is a "calm" zone in the Warp, one where psyker abilities don't work as well, where daemons don't manifest as huge monsters, one where you can interact with the "Warp" (that is, the Force) without being turned into something completely inhuman by its mindbending effects.

If THAT is the case, I think that Palpatine would end up being Emperor-level, while any naturally Force-attuned folk (Vader, any Jedi or muppets) are definitely beta or alpha psykers. Yoda would probably shit lightning if he came across, and then end up a daemonhost about twelve seconds later. I'm more worried what would happen if stormtroopers started showing signs of Chaos corruption, though. Though what effect this might have on whether SW hyperspace actually IS the Warp and thus the source of the Force is certainly debatable.

[Simon_Jester]

If THAT is the case, I think that Palpatine would end up being Emperor-level, while any naturally Force-attuned folk (Vader, any Jedi or muppets) are definitely beta or alpha psykers. Yoda would probably shit lightning if he came across, and then end up a daemonhost about twelve seconds later.

I'd say it's the other way around. Palpatine becomes an insanely powerful Tzeentchian daemon prince in seconds, because he's already become as completely corrupted by the evil side of the Warp as it's possible to be. He's the candidate of the Chaos gods' dreams. Whereas Yoda, who has immense willpower and Dark Side resistance, becomes the Frog-Emperor of Mankind.

Anyway, though, this still presents strategic problems for the Empire, because anything they send to the 40k galaxy is liable to come straight back down their throats with a dash of Chaos thrown in for flavor.* While they might very well conquer the Imperium if their leading Force users pass through and become more powerful than we can possibly imagine... they'll have been warped beyond all recognition in the process.

I'm more worried what would happen if stormtroopers started showing signs of Chaos corruption, though. Though what effect this might have on whether SW hyperspace actually IS the Warp and thus the source of the Force is certainly debatable.

We know that in 40k the Necrons have a drive system that has nothing to do with the Warp and effectively teleports ships from A to B. I'd guess that hyperspace is the same thing the Necrons are using, myself.

[Vendetta]

Also, re: Warp. Whose to say that SW humans affect the Warp in the same way as the Tau, i.e. not at all? If the billions of sentients in SW don't manifest any Warp-based effects despite their minds and subconscious whatevers, then this means that SW humans and sentients are very much unlike 40k ones whose minds and whatevers DO manifest Warp-whatevers.

Maybe the Warp is just stronger in some sense in 40k space, such that psychic effects that wouldn't be noticeable in the SW galaxy are very noticeable in the 40k galaxy. I mean, you can draw a lot of similarities between the effects of the Force and the effects of the Warp. Both do weird things to your mind, both let you fire bolts of energy from your hands, both let you contact people over long distances, both surround and penetrate all life (and not in a good way, in the case of 40k).

It is entirely possible that the Eldar raping a brand new hole in the fabric of reality has something to do with that. See: Not allowed to have any more fun, ever.

Either that or three out of four chaos gods are sulking in SW because the Sith are basically all Tzeentch, all the time.

[Simon_Jester]

It is entirely possible that the Eldar raping a brand new hole in the fabric of reality has something to do with that. See: Not allowed to have any more fun, ever.

Either that or three out of four chaos gods are sulking in SW because the Sith are basically all Tzeentch, all the time.

Eh, not really. I mean, it's usually either Tzeentch or Khorne, but that whole "embrace your anger" thing really is a very Khornate way of thinking.

Oh, god. I just had the most horrible vision of a SW/40k crossover ever. Only one scene, and I will never, ever even think about trying to write the story that results from this:

"His computer's off. Luke, you've switched off your targeting computer. What's wrong?"
"BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"

[Serafina]

If THAT is the case, I think that Palpatine would end up being Emperor-level, while any naturally Force-attuned folk (Vader, any Jedi or muppets) are definitely beta or alpha psykers. Yoda would probably shit lightning if he came across, and then end up a daemonhost about twelve seconds later. I'm more worried what would happen if stormtroopers started showing signs of Chaos corruption, though. Though what effect this might have on whether SW hyperspace actually IS the Warp and thus the source of the Force is certainly debatable.

IF any force-users get an substantial power boost by the warp, they will be in a world of hurt.
Why?
Well, simply because using the warp is very much about controll, and lack of controll can lead form harmless stuff like exploding heads to bad stuff like being posessed.


Anyway, the best way to bring down the IoM is to build a Death Star or similar superweapon and blow up Terra.
Aside from the impact on morale, it would destroy the Astronomican which would seriously hamper warp travel.

Of course, you have to learn about that weakness first, which could take quite a while. Basically the only people who know how the Astronomican works and how important it is are Inquisitors, Navigators and high-ranking members of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.
Given that SW would not know to look for it in the first place, the odds of finding it out are kinda slim.

Of course, it is entirely possible that the Eldar or even the Necrons would disagree with that plan (the Eldar due to the impact on the galactical power balance, the Necrons because hte IoM is usefull for keeping the Warp at bay).
So even the Death Star is no 100%-strategy.


However, i have yet to see a sure plan to actually counqer any worlds - if you don't do that, why invade in the first place?
Smaller worlds (agricultural, mining etc.) are not that heavily defended, but any interesting worlds (hive/garrision/fleet/factory) easily have millions or billons of defenders.
While a stormtrooper might be slightly better than a soldier of the Guard (propably on IoM-stormtrooper-level), the GE is lacking in the vehicle compartement - notably artillery and tanks.
Even if they match the sheer numbers, the Guard alone would propably outmatch them, ignoring the better troops of the IoM.

[Shroom Man 777]

re: Wasting Terra

What can the Eldar or the Necrons do about it? How can they stop a hundreds-km battlestation from hypering into Sol, wasting Terra, and hypering out? How can they even know this is going to happen (sure, the Eldar has prophesies and foresight... but the Necrons?)? If the Empire wants to Alderaan Terra, and we know that they can choose to kill entire worlds at whim, what can anyone do about it?

However, i have yet to see a sure plan to actually counqer any worlds - if you don't do that, why invade in the first place?
Smaller worlds (agricultural, mining etc.) are not that heavily defended, but any interesting worlds (hive/garrision/fleet/factory) easily have millions or billons of defenders.
While a stormtrooper might be slightly better than a soldier of the Guard (propably on IoM-stormtrooper-level), the GE is lacking in the vehicle compartement - notably artillery and tanks.
Even if they match the sheer numbers, the Guard alone would propably outmatch them, ignoring the better troops of the IoM.

You don't need to conquer worlds. You can just strategically bombard and/or eliminate whole craploads of the enemy (Imperium's) warmaking capacities by bombarding forge worlds, by wasting shipyards, by killing their supply ships, and generally attriting them. Think of it as the Empire's equivalent of firebombing Japan, or bombing Germany. They can do this indefinitely, with impunity, until such a time that the Imperium's warmaking capacity's been attrited to the point where they surrender or can hardly put up a fight or where their hiveworlds start having famines and they die.

Think of the American plans to deal with Japan in WW2, now multiply it on a galactic level.

[Srelex]

the GE is lacking in the vehicle compartement - notably artillery and tanks.

Er, no.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TX-130T_fighter_tank
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/2-M_repulsor_tank
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Century_tank
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE_Mauler
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SPMA
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_artillery_platform
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leveler_ ... e_launcher

As for overall vehicles: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category ... l_vehicles

[NecronLord]

No they don't. Fuck, planets have been broken up by IoM fleet bombardment on occasion. Exterminatus is preffered because it requires one volley to hit the planet. And you can drive-by with a Cobra destroyer and do it in seconds.

What? With a fleet or battleship maybe, but where have bombardments been described as taking seconds?

In IIRC the 5th Ed. Tyranids Codex, a squadron of Cobra-class destroyers did a drive-by Cyclonic strike on a 'nid held world (although as I don't have the relevant codex I couldn't verify that).

Every deployment of Virus bombs is a single volley attack, as a rule. That's 3rd ed 'nid codex, but there are other examples. Not least BFG, where the 'exterminator weapon' (can represent a number of devices) only needs to fire once.

Additionally, there's the video game examples, both inside thirty seconds.




The latter is obviously something special, in that it blows up the planet, but we know the Imperium has the capacity to do that with a single torpedo, though only six are known to exist now (WD 287, Last Stand of the Firebrands)

[Simon_Jester]

re: Wasting Terra

What can the Eldar or the Necrons do about it? How can they stop a hundreds-km battlestation from hypering into Sol, wasting Terra, and hypering out? How can they even know this is going to happen (sure, the Eldar has prophesies and foresight... but the Necrons?)? If the Empire wants to Alderaan Terra, and we know that they can choose to kill entire worlds at whim, what can anyone do about it?

The Necron have technological capabilities that match or exceed anything we've seen out of the Empire with the possible exception of the sheer power output of the Death Star superlaser. That includes inertialess drive, shields and weapons that can give them vastly more combat power per ton than the Imperium's finest (which, again, is not all that far below the Empire's level)... I wouldn't put it past the Necrons to decide to stop the Empre from wasting Terra (and probably Mars, where one of their gods lives) by simply blowing the Death Star to bits.

Their intelligence seems incredibly good, probably because of the sheer scope of their sensor capability and the functionally-supernatural powers their rulers get from, well, call it "sufficiently advanced" technology.

You don't need to conquer worlds. You can just strategically bombard and/or eliminate whole craploads of the enemy (Imperium's) warmaking capacities by bombarding forge worlds, by wasting shipyards, by killing their supply ships, and generally attriting them. Think of it as the Empire's equivalent of firebombing Japan, or bombing Germany. They can do this indefinitely, with impunity, until such a time that the Imperium's warmaking capacity's been attrited to the point where they surrender or can hardly put up a fight or where their hiveworlds start having famines and they die.

The problem is one that people really faced when planning this kind of bombing during WW2; ask Stuart if you don't believe me. He probably has a graph.

See, in order to win this way, you have to beat on your enemy until they surrender. Which requires an agreement to surrender from someone with the authority to surrender and the influence to impose their will on the diehards. But if you knock out the central nodes of control, who's going to sign the surrender document? Who has the authority to tell the guerillas squatting in the ruins of their civilization that it's time to stop shooting at you?

If you can't solve this problem, you're going to be faced with a version of the problem the Philippines had with having random crazy Japanese Army guys who didn't know the war is over charging out of the woods and bayoneting people. Only instead of random crazy "Nippon banzai!" types, you've got entire planets with Base Delta Zero-capable battlefleets to deal with. Not good.

Now, if all you want is to cripple the enemy and walk away, that may be acceptable: do enough damage and while there may still be belligerent guys left alive and staggering out of the wreckage, they won't be coming after you any time soon. But if you aspire to conquer, this means that you will have to constantly garrison every world that does surrender to protect it from raids launched by those that didn't. Up to and including Exterminatus-level attacks by surviving elements of the Space Marines, Inquisition, and Imperial Navy.

To extend the analogy to WW2 Japan, you don't want to blow up Terra. You want the High Lords of Terra to sign a surrender document aboard the Death Star and get an official radio broadcast from the Emperor renouncing his divinity. Because otherwise you're going to have "for the Emperor!" diehards harassing you from now until the setting becomes Warhammer 50k.

[NecronLord]

Hang on. Then, what exactly DOES an Exterminatus entail? If not fleet bombardment... A one-volley planetary killfuck by what means? The use of crazy weapons like virus bombs and cyclonics? Non brute-force methods? Or can a single Cobra destroyer brute force an entire planet's murdershitting?

Exterminatus is any attack that destroys all life on a planet so utterly that the Imperium cannot re-terraform it. This can be technobabble like virus bombs, it can be cyclonic torpedos, it can also be whistling up a fleet to blast the planet, or even firing mass drivers at it.

Is it done by pure astropathics? I seem to recall mention of couriers but I don't remember perfectly...

Yes, couriers are more Tau, though obviously couriers are in use where that would be beneficial.

[NecronLord]

re: Wasting Terra

What can the Eldar or the Necrons do about it? How can they stop a hundreds-km battlestation from hypering into Sol, wasting Terra, and hypering out? How can they even know this is going to happen (sure, the Eldar has prophesies and foresight... but the Necrons?)? If the Empire wants to Alderaan Terra, and we know that they can choose to kill entire worlds at whim, what can anyone do about it?

The Necron have technological capabilities that match or exceed anything we've seen out of the Empire with the possible exception of the sheer power output of the Death Star superlaser. That includes inertialess drive, shields and weapons that can give them vastly more combat power per ton than the Imperium's finest (which, again, is not all that far below the Empire's level)... I wouldn't put it past the Necrons to decide to stop the Empre from wasting Terra (and probably Mars, where one of their gods lives) by simply blowing the Death Star to bits.

I'm not sure they're capable of such a thing. They could maybe ram a tombworld into it? (How very Doc Smith) from behind or something, but that'd likely destroy the place anyway.

More likely is the Deceiver just going to Coruscant and becoming the Emperor. Problem solved.

[Shroom Man 777]

re: Wasting Terra

What can the Eldar or the Necrons do about it? How can they stop a hundreds-km battlestation from hypering into Sol, wasting Terra, and hypering out? How can they even know this is going to happen (sure, the Eldar has prophesies and foresight... but the Necrons?)? If the Empire wants to Alderaan Terra, and we know that they can choose to kill entire worlds at whim, what can anyone do about it?

The Necron have technological capabilities that match or exceed anything we've seen out of the Empire with the possible exception of the sheer power output of the Death Star superlaser. That includes inertialess drive, shields and weapons that can give them vastly more combat power per ton than the Imperium's finest (which, again, is not all that far below the Empire's level)... I wouldn't put it past the Necrons to decide to stop the Empre from wasting Terra (and probably Mars, where one of their gods lives) by simply blowing the Death Star to bits.

Their intelligence seems incredibly good, probably because of the sheer scope of their sensor capability and the functionally-supernatural powers their rulers get from, well, call it "sufficiently advanced" technology.

Can we get more defined Necron capabilites? Because all that they've been doing lately is scurrying about being vaguely mysterious and scary, as befitting plot devices and unspecifically very powerful and frightening bad guys to motivate the protagonists in bowel-clenching fear, and nothing truly definite as per their specific large-scale warmaking capabilities (in the current/present time, and not thousands of years ago when they were fucking Eldar gods with their necrodermis cocks or whatever).

The problem is one that people really faced when planning this kind of bombing during WW2; ask Stuart if you don't believe me. He probably has a graph.

See, in order to win this way, you have to beat on your enemy until they surrender. Which requires an agreement to surrender from someone with the authority to surrender and the influence to impose their will on the diehards. But if you knock out the central nodes of control, who's going to sign the surrender document? Who has the authority to tell the guerillas squatting in the ruins of their civilization that it's time to stop shooting at you?

If you can't solve this problem, you're going to be faced with a version of the problem the Philippines had with having random crazy Japanese Army guys who didn't know the war is over charging out of the woods and bayoneting people. Only instead of random crazy "Nippon banzai!" types, you've got entire planets with Base Delta Zero-capable battlefleets to deal with. Not good.

Now, if all you want is to cripple the enemy and walk away, that may be acceptable: do enough damage and while there may still be belligerent guys left alive and staggering out of the wreckage, they won't be coming after you any time soon. But if you aspire to conquer, this means that you will have to constantly garrison every world that does surrender to protect it from raids launched by those that didn't. Up to and including Exterminatus-level attacks by surviving elements of the Space Marines, Inquisition, and Imperial Navy.

To extend the analogy to WW2 Japan, you don't want to blow up Terra. You want the High Lords of Terra to sign a surrender document aboard the Death Star and get an official radio broadcast from the Emperor renouncing his divinity. Because otherwise you're going to have "for the Emperor!" diehards harassing you from now until the setting becomes Warhammer 50k.

If that (IoM surrenders) doesn't happen, then I think having the IoM crippled and having the SW Galactic Empire zip in and vaporize IoM military assets or planets that cross the No Fly Zone, ala post-Desert Storm but pre-Iraqi Freedom Iraq, is still a pretty nice outcome. Sure, the Empire doesn't get an overwhelming victory, but the IoM still gets fucked and is now stuck with sanctions and a Psykers for Food or whatever program. Maybe when the Galactic Empire bolsters its capabilities in the future, it can send weapons inspectors that the IoM can rebuff and so Palpatine can lie to the galactic populace that the IoM is manufacturing virus bombs that the Galactic Empire has prohibited it from making. So the GE can launch a second Space Gulf War, an Operation Imperium Freedom or whatever, and this time they can do it better.

Or worse.

[Simon_Jester]

Can we get more defined Necron capabilites? Because all that they've been doing lately is scurrying about being vaguely mysterious and scary, as befitting plot devices and unspecifically very powerful and frightening bad guys to motivate the protagonists in bowel-clenching fear, and nothing truly definite as per their specific large-scale warmaking capabilities (in the current/present time, and not thousands of years ago when they were fucking Eldar gods with their necrodermis cocks or whatever).

Well, we've got the Necron World Engine, described as "planet sized." It shrugged off a dozen attacks by Imperium capital ships (which, I remind you, carry lances and nova cannon and such that are roughly on par with SW capital ship weapons), inflicting "millions of casualties" on the Imperium's fleet.

Finally, an entire chapter of Space Marines managed to ram their flagship through the shields and (of course) board the freaking thing. They blew the shit out of the stuff in front of them and fought their way to a major command center. When they blew the shit out of that, it messed up the World Engine's command and control to the point where the Navy was able to nail it with a barrage of those planet-busting cyclonic torpedoes.

Now, I don't remember any evidence of the World Engine actually destroying any planets outright, as opposed to "sterilizing" them. But given its size and resistance to capital ship fire, and the kind of firepower it took to kill it, I'd imagine it as being basically like the Death Star only without a superlaser: still very, very much BDZ-capable, and still practically immune to conventional fleet strikes.

Likewise, we have examples of Necron craft slipping right through the Imperium's toughest defenses (Sol system) and landing on Mars, which is the industrial heart of the Imperium just as Terra is its political and religious heart. So I wouldn't put it past the Necrons to get their fighter-type craft into position to disable the Death Star. Even if they don't find a convenient small thermal exhaust port, they may still be able to attack the superlaser emitters or something.

Not saying this is a surefire tactic, but if anyone short of the Culture can kill the Death Star by brute force, the Necrons can.

If that (IoM surrenders) doesn't happen, then I think having the IoM crippled and having the SW Galactic Empire zip in and vaporize IoM military assets or planets that cross the No Fly Zone, ala post-Desert Storm but pre-Iraqi Freedom Iraq, is still a pretty nice outcome.

Well, yeah, but the Empire doesn't actually profit from this situation, any more than we profited from doing this to Iraq. Since they're, y'know, in completely different galaxies, possibly in completely different universes... why not just have the Star Wars guys fortify whatever random portal let them interact with 40k and say "You know, we're not going into this universe, it is just too fucked up for words. Let them handle their own grim and dark problems."

[Bloody Chaplain]

On your first point Shroom Man I have to give it to you. The FTL travel of the SW inverse is far safer than the warp, as well as exponentially faster. On the subject of communication though, I recall that obi-wan had to use Anakin to send a message to Corascant due to either distance or power. Astropaths can communicate instantly, anywhere, with some being able to do so as long as they are alive.

Multiple people have replied to your planet killing posts already so I won’t go into that.

With the comparison of the two ships multiple people have cited the size of Star Destroyers and their weaponry, I would like to point out that most escort type ship of the IoM are as large if not larger. If it is true that the SD is about 1 mile long, most escort ships of the Imperium are that long, (2 kilometers,) with larger ships coming in at 4-8 miles. Still this is smaller than SSD, but only a few thousand of these were made, while there are an uncountable amount of Battle-ships and Grand-Cruisers, and at the least there are, 3000 Battle-Barges. Just as a SD is bristling with weaponry so are ships of the Imperium, with super powered Lancer batteries, nova cannons, torpedoes, and laser batteries. While I am pretty sure an Ion blast would do the same to a IoM ship as it would to a SW ship of the same size, I don’t think anything but a SSD would be able to take out one of the larger Imperium ships.

On to manufacturing. If I am correct, then SD are manufactured at one of four different ship yards. The Imperium has entire worlds whose are only in existence to manufacture weapons of war, such as Mars. These Forge worlds have billions of people working day and night to turn out weapons on such a massive scale that their planets are more inhospitable than a Hive World. Entire other planets, the agri-worlds, are required to supply food to these worlds. Most forge worlds build thousands of Grand Cruisers a year.

You made the point that the GE has an entire galaxy worth of resources, though they also share them with Thrawn’s people and a few other groups, though I don’t think this adversely affect their resource gathering. The only military force in SW seems to be police to fight rebels, and they can’t even do that right.

The Imperium sacrifices billions of people a day in war, work, and millions of psykers a day to keep the Emperor alive. They fight enemies ranging from bands of poorly trained insurgents to supernatural elite armies, and more often than not win. The Eye of Terror is a constant war zone and has been one for thousands of years. All Imperium controlled planets near that system, are nothing more than giant army raising and training centers.

There are so many regiments of the Imperial Guard that they are uncountable. Behind them are the combat forces of the Imperial Navy, various PDF forces, (basically a planets standing army,) the militant branches of the Ecclesiarchy, as well as 1 million Space Marines give or take a thousand. Suitably the Imperial Navy is also gigantic. There are five immense navies, one for each sector of space, with most worlds having their own fleets of thousands, war zones having entire fleets dedicated to them, and so do many important planets such as Mars or Earth. Most of the larger ships are crewed by 25,000 to 1 million men.
Another point about manpower. While the destruction of Alderaan was the most terrible thing the Empire could do, planet killing is a familiar occurrence to the Imperium. The death of one planet, such as Tanith, is not even given a second though by anybody except the guardsmen from there. Similarly, when chaos take over a planet, billions of people are slaughtered.
Several people talked about SW owning at space warfare. I find it hard since the fleet around the second death star had about 40 SDs and 1 SSD. If this is the force the Empire can put around such an important target, then Terra’s fleet alone, (which has thousands of Battle-Ships and Grand-cruisers,) could destroy this fleet and any other one.
If we put the largest Imperium ship against a SSD the SSD would win. In a straight up navel engagement on a planet, the Imperium can just field more ships of a similar quality to a SD, and enough larger ships to spam the SSD.
Onto ground combat, it would not be like Vietnam as some have said. Vietnam had an almost appalling lack of support, as well as a general hatred of the US soldier. Nobody ever blinks an eye when an entire IG unit is wiped out. In fact, IG doctrine is to win against enemies of superior quality by sending in so many men that the enemy just can’t slaughter enough of them. Against humans it break down into more conventional schools of war. This brings me back that there will be no protest when several billion guardsmen die, even if they couldn’t take out a comparable amount of the enemy with them.
Onto the lasgun vs blaster argument. A lasgun on its standard setting is basically a .50 round. It blows limbs of people, and has been known to gib people quite easily. This is ineffective against most enemies the IG goes up against, but against humans it is incredibly powerful. The blaster seems to be generally weaker in the force it generates, I haven’t ever seen a rebel gibbed by one, I do recall in ep IV that storm trooper bolts that missed the rebels were able to kill them with shrapnel from the impact. Which one is stronger I don’t know, as I don’t know the full powers of the blaster.
From a lot of the SW movies and cannon books I see a lot of Hollywood tactics, Endor being the most blatant example. The IG and SM are guilty of this to at an extent, but not as badly. For the SM it is their way of life. Charge upright with little cover is a way of life for them, and IG commanders are often forced to make bad calls to prevent worse ones and so on. If we look at the reputations without the flaws of SW authors or the movies then the Storm Trooper should be an elite force. Yet again, why in the hell are there walkers in a forest, nothing larger than a platoon guarding the damn shield, and why do they get killed by teddy bears using tactics that anybody with common sense could avoid. In the movies at least, I really am not afraid of Storm Troopers.

The IG on the other hand always uses overwhelming force when they expect combat. Unless a commander is trying to get someone killed that is. Though the Imperium does have a bureaucratic system that would make a Jamaican limboist cry, they still win when they put their might and minds together.

I actually have to go now so I shall post more later. Didn’t expect so many replies in less than a day, as well as so many good points. Some of this stuff is making me rethink the debate. Will be back for more abuse later. I hope this post is intelligible, I am rushed right now.

[Night_stalker]

yeah, and I'm pretty sure that the Stormtroopers aren't trained to deal with flamethrowers, plasma guns, psykers, and lots of heavy projectile weapons.

[Simon_Jester]

yeah, and I'm pretty sure that the Stormtroopers aren't trained to deal with flamethrowers, plasma guns, psykers, and lots of heavy projectile weapons.

Eh. Flamethrowers are a well known (if rare) weapon in Star Wars. Plasma guns are functionally equivalent to super-heavy blasters. They're BIG and powerful, but not so big as to present a really drastic new challenge compared to, say, heavily armed battledroids. Likewise heavy projectile weapons.

Psykers, now... psykers are going to be a problem. Even anti-Jedi training doesn't help much, because psykers are less likely to try and fight you by bringing a sword to a gunfight, and more likely to just rip you to pieces with their bare brains.

[Shroom Man 777]

40k psykers aren't magic. Sure, they throw lightning and shit, but lots of times they've been depicted as being just as killable by raw firepower. Blow them to pieces and they're dead.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, yeah. But some of the shit they get up to is pretty extreme, like making people invisible to sensors or teleporting guys behind your lines. They're not (usually) bulletproof, but depending on just which psykers we're talking about, the weirder stuff in their bag of tricks is at least going to achieve tactical surprise against troops who aren't used to it. I mean, hell, it even manages to surprise troops who are used to it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh man, not this again.

Look: SW vs 40K (or IoM) is a case of "depends on". As in "depends on how the GE and IoM are set up at the start." The state of the galaxy (is Chaos still present as a threat? Is Chaos removed?), level of militarization (in particular, how much of a war footing you give to the Empire at the outset. Assuming they start off on a much higher war footing is something of a cheat for the GE, since they don't normally exist in a highly militarized state and their economy tends to favor a mostly peaceful galaxy. Even during the Civil War. The closest you got was the Clone Wars or the Yuuzhan Vong war.), level of intel involved, and how ruthlessly you impose canon (EG "million world" Empire vs "Million world" Imperium - does it ignore or allow the supplementary evidence on both sides that suggests larger sizes?)

The big "if" is the state of the 40K galaxy (and the SW) galaxy. In the case of the 40K galaxy, it includes the state of the warp (which influences travel and navigation for both sides) the absence or presence of other factions and threats (Chaos, Orks, 'nids, Necronds, Eldar, etc.) as they serve as distractions nad problems for both sides (an IoM unencumbered by Chaos and alien threats is not nearly as fragmented, for one thing, and SW won't have to worry about those other threats either.) In this case I'm assuming the former - that its just the IoM vs GE. Likewise for SW the REbellion and other unaligned factions could be relevant but here will be assumed to be irrelevant.

In general, the GE has the advantage in industry, communications, and FTL speed. With the following caveats:

1.) Communications advantage HEAVILY relies on the holonet and hyperwave, so the (initial) advantage here remains mostly in the SW galaxy itself. Mobile starship hyperwave faiclities can be used (like the Separtists used) but they aren't as effective, and like FTL travel, you apparently need Stellar level power for holonet communications (so you need a steady and hefty supply logistics to deploy and maintain such - the Holonet was very expensive for the Republic to maintain. Indeed, Palpy financed much of his military endeavors through scaling back the Holonet, which actually had the beneficial side effect of restricting information and access to his enemies.)

In the SW galaxy, bulk communication will be through subspace and mobile hyperwave/hyperradio nets and shipboard comms. SW will still have an advantage, but it will be much less pronounced than in its home galaxy (until or unless they can deploy and maintain a similar network in SW.)

2.) Industry. Hard to predict. The bulk of the Republic/Military industry operates in situations where the overall galactic situation is not dramatically threatened (The closest being the Yuuzhan Vong war -the Clone Wars was mostly economic in and of itself) but as a rule does not and (to my knowledgE) has not gone onto a significant military footing - at least not without a significant threat to the stability of the government hitting them in the face (and sometimes not even then, depending on the politics of the situation.) The SW galaxy as a rule seems to be geared towards peaceful economic activity and against any significant or practical warmaking (likely because any move towards that would fuck up the galaxy.) They vastly under-utilize their automated construction abilities as well (or even just droid manufacturing) likely for political and economic reasons again (think unions and corporations) and their Military Industrial Complex I suspect could make the US one look efficient.

In short: They have the potential, they just never use it, and anyone who brings up industrial potential for the GE should realistically be taking context into account with the situation. Simply saying "Death Star" doesn't mean much - this isn't Trek or some other small power.

3.) FTL speed. Again, there are some (inter-related) factors that limit the advantage here. Knowledge is a short term problem. SW doesn't know the 40K galaxy as a whole (hell the 40K galaxy itself doesnt know the galaxy as a whole) and it will take some time and effort (however they do it) to overcome that (but they can map it, even if they have to do it by hand.) I should ntoe here that the problems in communicatons will hamper FTL travel as well, not just for plotting things out, but also because it seems that much of the civilian and commerical traffic relies on the holonet/hyperwave capability to receive/download accurate hyperdrive data for jump calculations and such. Local military forces probably have those problems as well. Only the ships of the central government and its military don't need this (aside from smugglers like the Falcon and secret ships like Maul's ship, but they trade reliability for freedom in one case, and Maul's ship is an exception.)

The big problem is more centered on the 40K galaxy, and the state thereof. If Chaos is present, the warp is turbulent, but this doesn't JUST affect the situation in the warp or warp travel. It can also affect realspace by warp portals and gates, and the random warp rifts or warp storms that may erupt randomly and at any given time. What happens if a starship plows through a warp gate or sudden warp storm? Nevermind the stable ones like the Eye or Maelstrom (good luck plotting those) Nevermind any other bizarre (read magical) freak anomalies that may crop up in 40K (Giant space whales, for example. They get as big or bigger than starships), space hulks, or whatever. The fun part is going to be in trying to detect those things, especially (there is a chance, its been hinted at that ther emay be some tachyonic element to warp phenomena, but its not a strong link.)

And there are exceptions. Strong currents can be predictable and give FAST transit, as can certain isolated areas (the system featured in Dark Creed features in sanely fast warp travel between a score or more of systems) and the Emperor is known (HH collected visions mentions this) of being able to greatly expedite warp travel if he chose to do so.

If Chaos is absent, then those threats vanish. But then warp travel becomes much faster and more reliabile. Not as fast as a strong warp current (Those wouldn't exist), but perhaps as fast as the webway - thousands of LY an hour or so, we might say.

40K has the advantage largely in "military expeirence" (they've been at war steadily for millenia) and an insanely massive military buildup - their industry may suck, but they've been doing it alot longer and they tend to have alot of stuff as a result.

In space: their ships are also alot more durable than SW equivalent, perhaps one reason why they take so long ot build (they emphasize more on quality than speed, esp big ships) Despite having roughly comparable magnitude of firepower, 40K ships last longer (hours in most cases opposed to minutes.) in combat with each other. A large part of this is due to void shields, but also due to hull.

Offsetting this is that some weapons, notably broadside guns, can suck at longer ranges (tens of thousands towards hundreds of thousands of km range) when it comes to accurate fire (CF Nightbringer) although this depends on the type of ship and how it is armed. That lack of consistency can be a problem (for 40K) and limit how much firepower can be brought to bear at longer ranges (then again SW ships tend not to engage at more than a light second as a rule either.)

They also tend to have far greater operational endurance than SW ships - days and weeks as opposed to hours or days. A SW ship at max powre can only operate for a few hours. A 40K ship at max power (assuming roughly comparable acceleration) can last that long easily if not more, without needing a resupply. Months or years if they ration. This may seem like a minor advantage, but with hypermatter powrplants fuel is a huge concern. You need it to power weapons (for ship to ship combat or BDZ), to power engines (to move),a nd to run the hyperdrive (Consider the hyperdrive ranges of the Venator, for example) One on one of comparable size/power, a 40K ship could quite possibly outlast a SW ship and force the latter to disengage and seek refuelling, or fight it to a pont where it could no longer reliabily carry out a sufficiently destructive planetary bombardment attack. And let's not forget that even the sublight 40K ships have at least some small measure of this capability.

Exterminatus: Timeframe depends on the method, the level of destruction (anywhere from "burn everything on the surface to ash via powerufl global firestorms" down to "melting the entire crust and blowing the atmosphere and oceans off" to rare cases of "blow significant chunks of the planet out, disrupt the planet's mass, or blow it apart.")

The "disrupting/blowing apart" the planet tends to be highly specialized. Certain (rare) kinds of Cyclonics, Archeotech weapons as NL says, huge fleets (the entirety of a SM LEgion basically which is going to be in the thousands to tens of thousands of ships and even then you need certain conditions for it ot happen), Warp aid (EG the Planet Killer). Nova cannon have (in theory) been noted as being capable of disrupting a planet's mass, as has overloading a certain kind of planetary power grid (plasma reactor I think) such as with St Josemane's hope (13th Black crusade background book, which also mentioned ~100 Nova cannon shells accomplishing the same thing. But it doesnt say what kind of shells are used and I doubt its on raw firepower alone.)

BFG says that a single cruiser sized vessel could arguably Exterminatus a planet in a matter of hours. The bigger the ship or more there are, the faster it can take. (Contras with Caves of Ice, where a flotilla of Battleships could wipe out the 'crons within a few salvos - minutes at worst, seconds at best.) This includes conventional bobmardment means as well as virus/cyclonic type bombardments (which can be technobabble or non.)

Smaller ships can use other methods like cyclonic torpedoes and virus warheads. The main benefit with those tends to be "fire and forget" - you dont have to keep bombarding the planet to achieve the results.

I'd get to teh ground first, but the big situation is the strategic scale (including space based forces). Settle that and then get down to tactics.

[NecronLord]

Well, we've got the Necron World Engine, described as "planet sized." It shrugged off a dozen attacks by Imperium capital ships (which, I remind you, carry lances and nova cannon and such that are roughly on par with SW capital ship weapons), inflicting "millions of casualties" on the Imperium's fleet.

Finally, an entire chapter of Space Marines managed to ram their flagship through the shields and (of course) board the freaking thing. They blew the shit out of the stuff in front of them and fought their way to a major command center. When they blew the shit out of that, it messed up the World Engine's command and control to the point where the Navy was able to nail it with a barrage of those planet-busting cyclonic torpedoes.

Now, I don't remember any evidence of the World Engine actually destroying any planets outright, as opposed to "sterilizing" them. But given its size and resistance to capital ship fire, and the kind of firepower it took to kill it, I'd imagine it as being basically like the Death Star only without a superlaser: still very, very much BDZ-capable, and still practically immune to conventional fleet strikes.

Likewise, we have examples of Necron craft slipping right through the Imperium's toughest defenses (Sol system) and landing on Mars, which is the industrial heart of the Imperium just as Terra is its political and religious heart. So I wouldn't put it past the Necrons to get their fighter-type craft into position to disable the Death Star. Even if they don't find a convenient small thermal exhaust port, they may still be able to attack the superlaser emitters or something.

Not saying this is a surefire tactic, but if anyone short of the Culture can kill the Death Star by brute force, the Necrons can.

For the record, the World Engine is probably a Tomb World (read, planet) they put a shield on and bolted an inertialess drive to, rather than a giant spherical space station. Any 40K vessel of such size would otherwise be world destroying.

[Simon_Jester]

For the record, the World Engine is probably a Tomb World (read, planet) they put a shield on and bolted an inertialess drive to, rather than a giant spherical space station. Any 40K vessel of such size would otherwise be world destroying.

This is very plausible. But it still requires that the Necrons be capable of at least rudimentary megascale construction: bolting engines onto a planet is probably not trivial. And they have an unknown number of extremely powerful, very mobile ships (as opposed to mobile planets).

It's not even closed to guaranteed that they could do it, but I would not be surprised to learn that the Necrons could take on the Death Star in a fleet action and destroy it by brute force.

The superlaser would probably swat Necron ships like flies if it scores a hit, but it's a single-target, relatively slow firing weapon, with a fixed traverse. Not suitable for a fleet action unless the enemy can be herded into a kill-zone. Whereas the Death Star's secondary batteries are, by all evidence, not more powerful than standard naval turbolasers and point defense. So it might not be able to repel a Necron fleet attack and prevent them from getting in close and crippling the ship with component strikes.

Then again, it might. I do not know, and much depends on the exact capabilities of Necron ships, which we don't have a good feel for.