Realism meets imagination: Super Soldiers

[Caiaphas]

Also, I think that individual nations have their own governments by definition. Unless you mean a single nation with has to deal with an hostile organization inside their cities, well, that's a job for the police essentially, you need a super policeman, not a super soldier.

I suppose that what I mean is that there is an organization like the UN, only with a helluva lot more power over other nations. An appropriate analogy would be that the world government (aka super-UN) is like the federal government, with the individual national governments like the states.

You have been seeing too much movies...

Sadly, I haven't had the time. Too much damn work to do too often. But what I mean is that they are supposed to complete mission goals with little support if necessary, and since the goal in this case is the elimination of all revolutionaries, that would entail killing everyone inside the base. I hope this clears things up a little for you.

Also, some ideas for supersoldier mods: anything that eliminates or reduces the need for sleep would be useful.

Thanks for the ideas.

[Raxmei]

That other thread brought something to mind. If I were trying to make a supersoldier race (not that I think that's a good idea in the first place) I'd be aiming to create the most austere organism capable of doing useful work and operating modern technology. Super powerful muscles increase metabolic overhead and the overcharged metabolisms used to support this would seem to be optimized for high performance over ruggedness. The benefit of that enhancement would make you a really terrifying fellow on an ancient or medieval battlefield, but these days that isn't as important. All you need physically is to be able to carry your pack, use your shovel, wear your armor, and sometimes shoot your gun. Come to think of it it might be better to approach this problem thinking what sort of enhancements a general purpose slave laborer might be able to use, with the obvious difference that you have a bigger budget to work with than you would for a common workman. You'd generally be optimizing for endurance and low upkeep.

edit: There might actually be the kernel of an interesting story there. Some crazy "master race" types engineer themselves to be the perfect warriors and create a slave race to serve them. When the slave race rebels like they always do the master race types lose because they're all engineered to be the perfect fighters but suck at every other soldier skill. Yes, this is partially inspired by S.M. Stirling's final society Draka.

[Rossum]

I supposed I'd better clear up the intended use of these supersoldiers and give a bit of background.

They're designed to be sabatours, infiltrators, and commandos. They have recieved training in commanding, so that they can lead groups to accomplish objectives. The general method by which they're supposed to operate is like this: infiltrate a partisan base, work your way into a position where you can effect damage, cut the power and other vital utilities when the time is right, and slaughter everyone in the base or call in for reinforcements. They also may be called upon for special missions, like retrieval of a specific item or the assassination of a particular figure.

As for the background: there's two factions duking it out. One is the government and the other is a breakaway group that wants to lessen the authority of the government over individual nations. The breakaway group is organized sort of like the Taliban today, only based in cities all over the world rather than the middle of nowhere, so it's very hard to just send in the troops and kill them. That's why a specific, heavily modified group of supersoldiers is needed, to infiltrate and locate bases. It makes the job a lot easier for the regulars.

Shroom Man, thanks for the adrenaline gland idea. I hadn't thought of that.

Hmm... if you are making them out to be sabateures and such, wouldn't making them stealthier help out as well?

Maybe some sort of invisibility gear, optic fibers built into their suits that bend light around their bodies. Or perhaps they have sonic based weaponry that disorients their opponents while they are immune to its effects (either by wearing protective gear or modifications to their inner ear or body structure that make them immune to sonic attacks). Give them the ability to move extra silently or see in the dark.

Maybe improve their sense of smell... give them the senses of a bloodhound so they can instictivly track enemies through the dark by smell, detect minute changes in their enemy (like a lie detector) or sense bombs or other dangerous compounds without the need of equipment. Could be brought about by either gene modification if they are an engineered race, cybernetic implants by just giving them sensors and hooking it to their brains so they register various information in different ways.

Tracker 1: I'm picking up four different scents, one is a Caucasian male in his thirties, one is that Garsem guy they linked to the drug runners, another one... he smells of pseudoderm and hydrolics... must be the cyborg, and there's one scared guy... overweight and late twenties.

Tracker 2: Well I'm picking up a mess of dust in that building. Smells like they're running enough nanofabricators to send a swarm force over half the city.

Tracker 1: Bugs? Dammit, what kind?

Tracker 2: About... *sniff* *sniff* I'm guessing they've got over three million fabricated robo wasps in there. The air is full of polycarbonate micron dust and... damm, they're loading them with Psycho! If those things get loose we'll have half the city eating the other half! We'll have to disable those bugs first... inform the base we'll need a decontamination crew soon and set your immune-defense system to block psychoactives.


Add some modifications to their legs to let them run faster and jump farther, and maybe the ability to climb walls. You want someone who can move quickly, silently, and undetectably and take out his opponents before they know he's even there.

[Simon_Jester]

I've never understood the concept of wanking out a super soldier. Under certain circumstances a highly modified 'agent' might be appropriate, but the potential benefit should match the cost. For an average soldier that's not going to be the case.

The simpler and cheaper route would be to use nanotechnology to act like a retrovirus and genetically modify the individual from the inside out to make them perform at peak human ca[abilities, or slightly beyond in some cases, rather than try to make their capabilities super human.

Anything more is better served by telepresence or a capably AI most of the time.

Realistically, yes.

The one context where supersoldiers might make sense is where it's impractical to send extremely large armies, where high quality equipment makes a huge difference, where the equipment in question is so expensive that you're talking about making a six million dollar man to get a better return on a sixty million dollar investment of equipment.

This is what 40k does to semi-justify their Space Marines. I think it works well enough, given how wacky the rest of the setting is.

[Teleros]

This is what 40k does to semi-justify their Space Marines. I think it works well enough, given how wacky the rest of the setting is.

Well, that and the Space Marines don't really bother with details like economics . Plus, do you want to be the emissary charged with telling the Ultramarines to disband because they're not cost-effective enough ?

They're designed to be sabatours, infiltrators, and commandos. They have recieved training in commanding, so that they can lead groups to accomplish objectives. The general method by which they're supposed to operate is like this: infiltrate a partisan base, work your way into a position where you can effect damage, cut the power and other vital utilities when the time is right, and slaughter everyone in the base or call in for reinforcements. They also may be called upon for special missions, like retrieval of a specific item or the assassination of a particular figure.

In this case I'd suggest a very different set of "upgrades" or whatever you want to call them...

• Endurance: because that is a big (BIG) part about what being in most real-world special forces is all about.
• Intelligence: because smart people will get promoted quicker when undercover and be able to better adapt to situations.
• Charisma: should speak for itself. You want people who can get everyone to love them and trust them with their babies (or at least the code to the armoury).
• Psychological Stability: In other words, these guys must be able to remain focused on the mission when undercover for long periods and when in extreme circumstances. Or in the Hollywood version, they can have a love interest, but mustn't choose them over the mission.

Beyond that... optimising what they have alreday, as Shroom said, is probably all you need to do. They should thus be able to blend in well with the local population and the group they've got to infiltrate. Going all Rambo on the enemy is what other people do.

[Shroom Man 777]

I supposed I'd better clear up the intended use of these supersoldiers and give a bit of background.

They're designed to be sabatours, infiltrators, and commandos. They have recieved training in commanding, so that they can lead groups to accomplish objectives. The general method by which they're supposed to operate is like this: infiltrate a partisan base, work your way into a position where you can effect damage, cut the power and other vital utilities when the time is right, and slaughter everyone in the base or call in for reinforcements. They also may be called upon for special missions, like retrieval of a specific item or the assassination of a particular figure.

As for the background: there's two factions duking it out. One is the government and the other is a breakaway group that wants to lessen the authority of the government over individual nations. The breakaway group is organized sort of like the Taliban today, only based in cities all over the world rather than the middle of nowhere, so it's very hard to just send in the troops and kill them. That's why a specific, heavily modified group of supersoldiers is needed, to infiltrate and locate bases. It makes the job a lot easier for the regulars.

Shroom Man, thanks for the adrenaline gland idea. I hadn't thought of that.

The thing is, in locating and infiltrating and sabotaging local bases, why would you need someone who is superstrong, superfast, and superdurable and also SUPEREXPENSIVE? If you want someone to do special operations that involve infiltration, espionage, sabotage and stuff, then these guys are supposed to be stealthy, evasive, and cunning blokes who'll use deception, evasion, diversion and all other types of underhanded techniques to AVOID COMBAT because by avoiding combat, THAT is how they infiltrate Talibans/mafias/gangs/cartels/partisans/resistances/insurgencies. And because these guys AVOID combat, that makes giving them superstrength and superbones and supernerves kind of pointless.

You'd be better off spending time and energy and money training these guys on the local customs, traditions, techniques, strategies and tactics of the insurgents/Talibans/mafias/gangs/cartels/partisans/resistances/terrorists than spending millions of monies and months or years of time on radical surgery to enhance them with crazy technologies.

If you want someone who's superfast and superstrong and superexpensive and superkilly, they'd be less suited as infiltrators and would be more useful as shock troopers. The guys who come in helicopters to rescue hostages being held by terrorists, where their speed/strength/superabilities will be useful in an actual combat scenario.

But letting a single supersoldier go "slaughter everyone in the base"? Alone? By himself? Against dozens or hundreds of enemies? He must either have SUPER super-abilities that make him like a Space Marine (the ability to withstand getting shot in the face, the ability to keep on fighting despite losing limbs or suffering horrific burns or injuries, the ability to spit venom, multiple hearts, and a GIANT FUCKOFF POWER ARMOR, and like SPIDERMAN-FAST superspeed) or you're getting your supersoldier - who you spent MILLIONS of dollars on designing RADICAL SUPER-ADVANCED MEDICAL TECHNOLOGIES - killed by a dozen/hundred bad guys with guns.


This is IF you're trying to be realistic. If you're trying NOT to be realistic, then you can have your supersoldiers slaughter entire enemy bases by himself! It's also cool. A supersoldier program that uses cutting edge technology and millions of dollars to create a living-breathing RUTHLESS 80s ACTION HERO? A genetically-engineered cybernetic AHNULD? Oh man, that would be AWESOME! You can have him say ONE LINERS! "You're fired!" *shoots someone with a rocket launcher* "LET OFF SOME STEAM!" *impales bad guy with a steam pipe* "WRONG!" *shoots person in the face with a shotgun* "EXCUSE MY FRIEND, HE IS DEAD TIRED!" *breaks someone's neck* "CONSIDER THAT A DIVORCE!" *shoots Sharon Stone in the ovaries* "You know what I said about killing you last?" "Yeah, you said you would!" "I LIED!" *drops people off cliffs* "CHILL OUT DICKWAD!" *slaughters ONE MILLION PEOPLE SINGLEHANDEDLY* "Hasta la vista baby!"

[Shroom Man 777]

Super Shroom Soldier Set A would be ideal for counter-terrorism ops, for storming close quarters, where speed and strength and reflexes and shit will make them superior to any baseline foe.

So this guy is... Shroombo?

Super Shroom Soldier Set B would be better for military reconnaissance, in say infiltrating enemy territory for extended periods of time and NOT fighting the enemy but staying HIDDEN and gathering information while crawling in jungles/deserts/tundras/oceans/volcanos/etc.

And this is... Solid Shroom Snake?

Yes.

JOHN SHROOMBO!

Shep even has the requisite GRAPHS!

A summary for your convenience!

[Caiaphas]

This is IF you're trying to be realistic.

Unfortunately for me, yes I am.

If you want someone who's superfast and superstrong and superexpensive and superkilly, they'd be less suited as infiltrators and would be more useful as shock troopers.

Heh. Superkilly. Would a hybrid shocktrooper-infiltrator be at all feasible?

Endurance: because that is a big (BIG) part about what being in most real-world special forces is all about.

Didn't I state that was part of what the modified muscle was for? Huh. I'll put it in. The modified muscle, by the way, was also intended to make the subject capable of moving faster without tearing all of it to bits, thanks to the enhanced nervous system. It wasn't to make him stronger. Also, I'm imagining up a sort of direct brain transfer information machine-a-ma-bobber for all of those customs/languages/whatnot that you mentioned. The Agents still need training in everything, but the machine makes it a heck of a lot easier.

Intelligence: because smart people will get promoted quicker when undercover and be able to better adapt to situations.
Charisma: should speak for itself. You want people who can get everyone to love them and trust them with their babies (or at least the code to the armoury).
Psychological Stability: In other words, these guys must be able to remain focused on the mission when undercover for long periods and when in extreme circumstances. Or in the Hollywood version, they can have a love interest, but mustn't choose them over the mission.

That's what the screening programs are for, not the genetics.

Give them the ability to move extra silently or see in the dark.

Silence comes from training; the natural night vision has already been covered. The smell thing is pretty cool, though. In it goes to the ability pool!

Thanks for the suggestions on a more realistic supersoldier, all of you.

[Shroom Man 777]

This is IF you're trying to be realistic.

Unfortunately for me, yes I am.

If you want someone who's superfast and superstrong and superexpensive and superkilly, they'd be less suited as infiltrators and would be more useful as shock troopers.

Heh. Superkilly. Would a hybrid shocktrooper-infiltrator be at all feasible?

I guess so. But if it's got to be realistic, then you really can't expect it to fight its way out of an entire base and kill a billion people by itself - cause, realistically, it can't be immune from firearms without being covered in bigass armor and unless you've genetically engineered a Jedi or the Flash, even if it's very fast it's still not going to be THAT SUPERFAST. Because it won't be realistic.

Military weapons are never designed to do everything by their lonesome, and a lot of military weapons systems work best when they're working in conjunction with other specialized weapons systems. For killing a building full of terrorists, I guess it could do that - though preferably it would be working with other gunmen, or even a team of superkilly supersoldiers. Working as a team, the supersoldiers would drastically boost their superkilliness.

Anyway, for infiltrating, a superkilly supersoldier can do infiltration fine - if their enhancements aren't obvious and stuff. But normal humans can infiltrate just fine too. The enhancements won't make them better infiltrators. The enhancements will make them great killers though.

(But, really, "realistically" a lot of the special forces wank you see in TV, movies and books are just that - wank.)

[Ghost Rider]

Ultimately the fundamental flaw of the super solider is unless they are backed up with super weaponry(Space Marines are honestly a fun example), they are useless. Soliders are like equipment, an expendable resource. Your leaders do not try to waste them because of the morale and material problems, but creating a group that has immense costs and their missions are of a variable that has a high chance of seeing them all dead, makes them extremely undesirable.

So making them borderline Space Marines is sadly the better case given that inorganic means is always cheaper to mass produce rather then screwing around on MK1 human...who could die by tripping on a rock.

[Starglider]

So making them borderline Space Marines is sadly the better case given that inorganic means is always cheaper to mass produce rather then screwing around on MK1 human...who could die by tripping on a rock.

That's certainly true right now, but not necessarily in the future. Currently armor etc would be ridiculously expensive to make, but human genetic engineering would be even worse. However this is a question of relative technological development and relative costs. If transhuman technology (cybernetic, surgical and GE) is developed anyway for commercial/private use, at some point these enhancements become cost effective compared to trying to squeeze even more performance out of the gear. However I don't think it would ever be a case of doing biological augmentation instead of making powered armor etc, rather at some point it would become worth doing it as well.

[Ghost Rider]

So making them borderline Space Marines is sadly the better case given that inorganic means is always cheaper to mass produce rather then screwing around on MK1 human...who could die by tripping on a rock.

That's certainly true right now, but not necessarily in the future. Currently armor etc would be ridiculously expensive to make, but human genetic engineering would be even worse. However this is a question of relative technological development and relative costs. If transhuman technology (cybernetic, surgical and GE) is developed anyway for commercial/private use, at some point these enhancements become cost effective compared to trying to squeeze even more performance out of the gear. However I don't think it would ever be a case of doing biological augmentation instead of making powered armor etc, rather at some point it would become worth doing it as well.

Agreed. The interesting line of cost effective is actually something that makes the idea of super soliders an odd bird really. If you go one route, the android/AI route may be cheaper depending on what you want said unit to do. While as you point out, if some items become developed on a low cost commerical usage, it becomes more effective to eek out that last bit from said human.

I believe that is far more effective way of determining how you want a fantastical universe to utilize said soliders. Which is brought more to the forefront. Course this brings up hundreds of other variables but it allows one to examine it as more integral part of the system rather then viewing said subject within a vacuum.

[Rossum]

Hmmm, here's a crazy idea: What if the Super Soldiers were actually members of the nobility or somesuch? Like in the old feudal days when a leader was celebrated for going personally into battle to defend his nation.

In order for someone to be recognized as being worthy of holding a high ranking position in government, they have to spend some years in the military in actual combat and success in their battles.

So, alot of these guys come from wealthy or influential families and can afford to have absurdly expensive and extensive surgeries to turn them into superhuman monsters. Heck, they might have brain implants that let them upload their personality into a backup unit in case they get killed in battle... at which point they get put into a cloned body that was custom grown for battle (though if its thought that the are relying solely on their enhancements then it decreases the fame they can get from their actions).

Problem is that having super powered soldiers in charge of a country isn't all that good (though it could very well be that most of the actual day-to-day work is handled by competent people, its just that the Super Kings in charge occasionally blow billions of dollars on extravagant garbage or more military hardware).

That could be why people are trying to rebel against the Empire but keep getting targeted by super powered nobles trying to make a name for themselves by crushing the rebellion (there are also regular soldiers and generals who are given more traditional equipment).


Okay, probably not the way things actually work in-universe but I suppose there could be a few people from rich families who want a distinguished military career and aren't afraid to spend lots of money to have themselves turned into super advanced soldiers to increase their own survivability.

[Starglider]

Heck, they might have brain implants that let them upload their personality into a backup unit in case they get killed in battle... at which point they get put into a cloned body that was custom grown for battle (though if its thought that the are relying solely on their enhancemen.

It has been impossible to make large-scale command decisions while personally fighting in the battle since the Napoleonic era. I can't see nobility nominally in command of the whole army dropping down to an effective rank of lieutenant in order to lead infantry actions.

[Night_stalker]

Super Soilders sound good on books and in labs, but in reality they are really doomed. Think about it, the probelms are diverse:

1. Cost. How much will all that fancy bioengineering run you in terms of cash? A billion sounds about right, but it might be more, can't say for certain. That means that you won't have a lot of them ever made or built, as the cost makes them too expensive for all but a few.

2. Medical. If you take 20 soliders and try and biologiclaly engineer them, you run the risk of accidentally creating either a corpse due to your playing Dr. Frankenstein, or a super soldier who now is incredibly strong and fast, can heal fast, and has memories of the agony you put them through. Do the math.

3. Attrition. Consider that despite how much engineering they have done to them, they are still human, and are still vulnerable to a 7.62mm headache. That means you have to give them powered armor, or just have the remote piloted cyborg idea previously mentioned.

[dworkin]

One question regarding the atomicsuperkillymen of tomorrow's battlefield. Who are they? Which part of society gets to volunteer (or is volunteered) to undergo all this medical torture to become atomicsuperkillymen? Who gives birth to these people and raises them? Who is going to sign up for the 'become a better living through chemistry atomicsuperkillyman but fuck yourself sideways medically' option? Atheletes do it for massive fame, fortune and screwing rights. What's a spec-ops atomicsuperkillyman whose entire career is so secret even God needs a note from his mum for clearance getting? The chance to be killed horribly, dubious pension and medicare? Or should they feel suitably honoured just to be thrown on the trash heap after the use by date?

Okay, several questions. They boil down to one though. What is the social cost of having atomicsuperkillymen?

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe in the future, posthumans will have the vast majority of their organ systems manufactured by megacorporations. You could have a General Electric nervous system, a Pentium brain processor, and brainware programmed by Microsoft. Maybe in the case of these supersoldiers, they'd get AN-SPQR-whatever Raytheon passive-aggressive sensors in their eyes, and like Lockheed Martin radar-absorbent skin, and specific organs manufactured by say... Rheinmetall or Bofors or something.

[Starglider]

You could have a General Electric nervous system, a Pentium brain processor, and brainware programmed by Microsoft.

Let's hope they have a very thorough cross-vendor compatability lab. Try to economise with shitty Chinese uncertified organs, and within six months you have cancer, heart palpitations and lead posioning. Although at this point in the future it might be shitty American knock-offs of Chinese organs...

[Shroom Man 777]

Corporations might send their bio-engineered branded humanoid supersoldiers to, say, destroy other corporations in other countries/places so everyone in those countries/places will end up buying the victorious corporation's branded organs while the losing corporation's products get phased out and all their employees get harvested for raw materials.

I love the future.

[Starglider]

I love the future.

I think you are confusing 'the future' with 'a Shadowrun campaign I used to play in'.

[Connor MacLeod]

This is one of the topics where I think "realism" is overused, and people should think in terms of "plausible" instead. It is, in my opinion, to get anything that is *very* hard sci fi without getting far afield of what we actually consider sci fi - it seems every time I look there's been a revision as to what is considered "hard" sci fi. I mean, if we were thinking "realistic" we wouldn't even be considering the human angle in any aspect of warfare - it'd all be done by remote control, or automated combat platforms or robots. Hell, there might not even *be* actual warfare if we actually accounted for cost and distance and stuff...

Anyhow, the thing about "super soldiers" I have noticed is that you tend to get a sort of.. oh.. min/maxing sort of effect going on that reminds me of a really crappily designed RPG charcater. Stuff like "supah strength/speed/toughness" and "cost/efficiency" simply become abstractions that are tailored to suit the concept or character, rather than making the concept suit the role. Hell, the idea of "high cost/rarity" simply fits into that profile, it makes the "character type" seem more special and will serve as some sort of "balancing" drawback.

Stuff like Space Marines or Spartans maybe make for a good game character-type or a story type, but I'd expect something more plausible (or "realistic" - I tend to consider the terms interchangably to mean "makes sense" rather than "conform to reality") to encompass a whole range of different "types" each tailored to a particular task. Shroomy specified the "Shock trooper" type, and others hinted at what an infiltrator/Specforce type would need (endurance is one. I expect the trooper to be able live off the land or operate independently far more efficiently as well. Having some of the senses like hearing and sight augmented would also help, as would some sort of "burst" speed mode or altered perception - the ability to act or react quickly for brief periods suits more than a sort of "powered up" mode.) You'll only give them abilities that would directly contribute to their mission, not handle EVERY CONCEIVABLE PROBLEM (that's a sort of over-engineering, which as Mike has noted, is not a good thing.) and I'd expect those abilities to be incremental advantages rather than vast upgrades (no lifting multi-ton masses effortlessly - I'd expect at best strenght migth be no more than a few times better, and it may carry a drawback of being only briefly applied due to various factors. OR they may engineer them to be able to lift more "human" amounts for far longer.) Tied into all this would likely be some sort of cost/benefit angle - they'd only expend the costs for enhancement so long as it didn't become too expensive (IE no massive costs to get a small increase in capability - these things likely will have a certain degree of expendability in them.)

And also like Shroom said I suspect that the medical/biological types would be the ones to control this aspect of technology. Having thought about it, they might even be required to provide any "maintenance" (medical technology to heal the damage caused by super abilities, to replace worn out organs, and the like. I'd bet that if you could grow super soldiers, regenerative technologies and/or cloning would also be feasible.)

An aside about Space Marines - while they have alot of silly qualities (preference for melee with chainsaw swords being one) I must say I rather do like the concepts applied to them. They're a specialized and elite force - not neccesairly special forces per se, but they are designed for specific roles - ship to ship boarding, shock and terror tactics and psychologicla warfare, rapid-response strike forces, and generally being available where some superhuman badass needs killing. Costs of making the Marines themselves are relatively minor, save time (and alot of that is largely a matter of policy and not technological limitation - Marines can be made in as little as a year, or less although it carries risks.) - gene seed (the progenoids) IIRC only needs a host to grow in (which is how they make new organs - slave hosts) and time and the costs of sustaining the hosts (basically life support and feeding.) Equipment (the weapons, power armor, the starships and all the rest) are where the costs are more substantial.

The main limit on Astartes numbers (aside from politics, bureacratic inertia, and residual fear of the Heresy) is that the Gene-seed as designed needs a certain kind of host to actually work, and this limits it to a small percentage of humanity relatively speaking (IIRC the ratios, there are more potential Astartes recruits than there are Psykers, but not by much. We're still talking under 1% of the total population.) and as we know from all the fluff, the Gene seed is pretty absurd (over-engineered, even.) Had I done it I would have introduced a greater degree of specialization in organ use, as well as developing "weaker" variants of the gene-seed that would produce less capable Astartes (but still superhuman) but also allow for greater numbers. You could even do this on several stages (indeed, Scouts represent a potential version of this by themselves, so we know its at least possible, nevermind the Primarchs from whom the gene-seed originates.) sorta like the difference between Spartan-2's and spartan-3s. The High end Astartes would be less numerous, but pretty much serve the roles they already do, with the "lesser" Marine types being used to support and do things that a normal person can't but would be trivial for a "full" Marine (and there are examples.)

Hell, I'm not even sure the Astartes technically count as strictly "genetically engineered" troops despite some of the claims. The way the gene-seed works (and has been described in more detial in earlier fluff, circa 2nd edition) hints that it might have a significant mechanical/biomechanical component to it (self replicating micromachines or some such) so they, like Spartans, may actually represent some sort of pseudo-cyborg.

[Shroom Man 777]

And also like Shroom said I suspect that the medical/biological types would be the ones to control this aspect of technology. Having thought about it, they might even be required to provide any "maintenance" (medical technology to heal the damage caused by super abilities, to replace worn out organs, and the like. I'd bet that if you could grow super soldiers, regenerative technologies and/or cloning would also be feasible.)

Oh, yes. A supersoldier's going to be no different than any other piece of military hardware, and will require craploads of maintenance on his super-special superhuman superorgans. But instead of a hangar or a garage or a drydock, his servicing place will be in a hospital or a clinic or a laboratory or something.

Man, it would suck if a supersoldier will have his off-duty time limited, or if he's only allowed to go to certain places when he's not working. Won't a supersoldier classify as a top-secret piece of military technology? Would we want this super-secret technology walking around, shopping, going to malls or restaurants, visiting parks, meeting with relatives, having family reunions, going to weddings, flying abroad, going to other countries, becoming a tourist, or - heaven forbid - immigrating somewhere?!

I'd imagine after serving his time, the supersoldier will either have been killed in action, or if he retires he'll have to "return" all the super-organs Uncle Sam's bestowed upon him. Certainly you can't KEEP any of that high-tech adamantium skellingtons or General Motors-patented cardiovascular system or Ratheon AN-SPQR passive-aggressive olfactory arrays, or Lockheed-Martin stealthy radar-absorbent epidermis coatings, when you return to civilian life! They'll have to rip your bones off, harvest your super-organs (maybe to implant it in the next batch of supersoldiers!), and cunt your eyes out, and staple your old original human organs back to you! These supersoldiers are gonna be Frankenstinian!

[Teleros]

Man, it would suck if a supersoldier will have his off-duty time limited, or if he's only allowed to go to certain places when he's not working. Won't a supersoldier classify as a top-secret piece of military technology? Would we want this super-secret technology walking around, shopping, going to malls or restaurants, visiting parks, meeting with relatives, having family reunions, going to weddings, flying abroad, going to other countries, becoming a tourist, or - heaven forbid - immigrating somewhere?!

Clearly you'd need to get them all addicted to internet crack World of Warcraft, thus avoiding all these issues .

On a more serious note, the main reason you can't keep soldiers in the field their whole lives is because of stress: even if society was okay with sending soldiers away for decades at a time, you can't do it because of things like PTSD. Therefore, if you can find ways of at the very least minimising such problems (I suppose ideally you'd want some way of completely negating the stress of combat... somehow...), you could plausibly never have to deal with all these things with your supersoldiers - especially if they're cloned or something. What's the point in rotating them back home when not only do they not have a home to go to, but they don't NEED to go home, because they don't need to recuperate like normal humans?

I'd imagine after serving his time, the supersoldier will either have been killed in action, or if he retires he'll have to "return" all the super-organs Uncle Sam's bestowed upon him. Certainly you can't KEEP any of that high-tech adamantium skellingtons or General Motors-patented cardiovascular system or Ratheon AN-SPQR passive-aggressive olfactory arrays, or Lockheed-Martin stealthy radar-absorbent epidermis coatings, when you return to civilian life!

If the side-effects are manageable (or even non-existent, if it's just a case of an optimised human body or you have sufficient god-tech), you may even WANT them to retire and have kids afterwards . Especially if the modifications are always passed on to the next generation. It's the sort of thing I can imagine the Imperium doing if it was safe enough (yes yes, okay you need the gene-seed and such, not just sperm + egg, I know ).

Just think though, you could have John Shroombo's super-kids all able to punch holes in brick walls before they can walk...

[Connor MacLeod]

Man, it would suck if a supersoldier will have his off-duty time limited, or if he's only allowed to go to certain places when he's not working. Won't a supersoldier classify as a top-secret piece of military technology? Would we want this super-secret technology walking around, shopping, going to malls or restaurants, visiting parks, meeting with relatives, having family reunions, going to weddings, flying abroad, going to other countries, becoming a tourist, or - heaven forbid - immigrating somewhere?!

No, I doubt anyone would want it walking around. Not only to prevent it from getting away from their hands or getting stolen/copied/whatever, but also because it might endanger some idiot civilian or something. I was kinda figuring most "super soldiers" probably would have certain technological bits implanted into them directly. Comm and locator gear (linked into a GPS), possibly some form of computer device (or at least an uplink) - maybe something to store and provide neccesary data (orders, maps/directions, etc.) Perhaps implants for certain abilities (EG night vision, sound enhancement/dampening, blindness/glare protection) if organic capabilities cannot provide, or whatever. Given that I'm betting some means of tracking and/or forbidding access from some places in a Sufficiently advanced setting means would exist to heavilly restrict their activities.

I'd imagine after serving his time, the supersoldier will either have been killed in action, or if he retires he'll have to "return" all the super-organs Uncle Sam's bestowed upon him. Certainly you can't KEEP any of that high-tech adamantium skellingtons or General Motors-patented cardiovascular system or Ratheon AN-SPQR passive-aggressive olfactory arrays, or Lockheed-Martin stealthy radar-absorbent epidermis coatings, when you return to civilian life! They'll have to rip your bones off, harvest your super-organs (maybe to implant it in the next batch of supersoldiers!), and cunt your eyes out, and staple your old original human organs back to you! These supersoldiers are gonna be Frankenstinian!

Another possibility to consider, with organic tech (or possibly some sort of self-replicating automated tech or something) is the possibility of it being "passed on" to offspring. I'm betting your super-human soldiers would be effectively sterile, or receive implants that prevent them from having kids (something we can do already I believe.) I'd imagine that over the long term such "advantages" could have some unpredictable (possibly disastrous?) consequences for the human race.

Again the idea of "clone slave armies" seems to be the only way you'd be seeing this implemented in a large scale, unless you had a Government who did forced conscription and implanted normal people (I suspect in those cases the above concerns about freedom would become irrelevant.)

Alot of this reminds me of the John Scalzi "Old Man's War" series and its take on warfare - one I kind of like in some ways and consider interesting even if its not terribly "hard" sci fi. The first book (the only one thus far I've read) has brought up a number of interesting ideas, especially with the "super soldier" idea (basically they have a technobabble mind transferrence tech where they transfer potential troopers into new, super-engineered bodies with implanted comms and computer tech. They're also green.) A number of the ideas above (and probably before) stem from that book probably.

[Shroom Man 777]

If these enhancements could be passed from one generation to another, the supersoldiers might become their own race and whoever made them might want to cultivate some kind of warrior culture or martial whatever into them, to turn them into Gene-engineered Gurkhas or something. Space Super Soldier Spartans! Except, if the supersoldiers decide to get rid of their creators, well... oh shit!