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OsirisLord wrote:I think Star Trek needs more below deck characters, and characters from the colonies and not just Earth.

Like....the Maquis on Voyager?

Tasha Yar is the big example from TNG. Beverly Crusher, according to a bio glimpsed in "Conundrum" was born on the Moon.

That's been the problem with a lot of SciFi, through ST is one of the more egregious offenders (and probably the originator of that brain bug). They have to have the command staff, but than that leaves little room (and budget) for characters to handle the "away mission"; hence you end up with all or most of the senior staff putting themselves at undue risk on a regular basis.

I think it would have been quite realistic to have a society like the early TNG federation, just throw in some politicial commissars and secret police here and there to make sure everyone are toing the proper line, dissenters will be reeducated

Uraniun235 wrote:TOS doesn't really present much basis at all; the series was explicitly forbidden from exploring or discussing the Earth government of the 23rd century.

Really? That's pretty curious, what was the rationale behind that?

Manus Celer Dei wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:TOS doesn't really present much basis at all; the series was explicitly forbidden from exploring or discussing the Earth government of the 23rd century.

Really? That's pretty curious, what was the rationale behind that?

Well, it was made during the height of the cold war and American involvement in the Vietnam War was escalating. I think no other explanation is needed.

In any case explicit social fiction is potentially much more controversial than the TOS roundabout way of showing things. Even TNG was still fairly cautious in that regard, which is why we don't really know how socialist the TNG era Federation is or how the distribution of wealth is actually arranged, other than at least on Earth and the major colonies there is no longer any real poverty, but that is achievable through taxation and social welfare programs even if private enterprises are still allowed.

His Divine Shadow wrote:I think it would have been quite realistic to have a society like the early TNG federation, just throw in some politicial commissars and secret police here and there to make sure everyone are toing the proper line, dissenters will be reeducated

If there ever was a Mirror-TNG, Troi filled this roll. Probably in leather too.

Actually, the reason why the Dominion lost the war was because they conquered Betazed, which is the same reason why the Federation was able to win the war. The Betazoids, they are like the Slavers, except pinko hippies.

I'm just imagining picard doing his "humanity has moved beyond material etc. etc." speech while looking around nervously with sweat beading on his forehead.

Manus Celer Dei wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:TOS doesn't really present much basis at all; the series was explicitly forbidden from exploring or discussing the Earth government of the 23rd century.

Really? That's pretty curious, what was the rationale behind that?

From the TOS Writers Guide, Third Revision:

What is Earth like in STAR TREK'S CENTURY?

For one thing, we'll never take a story back there and therefore don't expect to get into subjects which would create great problems, technical and otherwise. The "U.S.S." on our ship designation stands for "United Space Ship" -- indicating (without troublesome specifics) that mankind has found some unity on Earth, perhaps at long last even peace. If you require a statement such as one that Earth cities of the future are splendidly planned with fifty-mile parkland strips around them, fine. But television today simply will not let us get into details of Earth's politics of STAR TREK'S century; for example, which socio-economic system ultimately worked out best.

I think there were some concerns about not feeling free to frankly discuss the merits of certain economic and governmental systems on an American television network in 1967 (there's a gag in the Guide about how an explicitly anti-Vietnam story would be better suited for the BBC), and there were probably other rationalizations which Gene cooked up, but I think the biggest was this: the show was not about 23rd Century Earth, it was about the adventures of the Starship Enterprise in the frontier of space. Hell, the Guide even discourages writers from visiting Starbases unless vitally necessary to the story. The producers wanted to emphasize stories that took place out where no man had gone before, and where Kirk was forced to make tough choices without recourse to consultation or backup.

It's not like it was carved in stone, either. I'm sure if you submitted a dynamite script with lots of excitement, tension, drama - and could be produced on the cheap - and just happened to hinge on revealing some facet of the Earth government, they would probably have been willing to bend or break the rule in order to get that script. (TOS was always desperate for good scripts.)

Don't forget David Gerrold was told to not criticise big business when he was writing 'Tribbles'. Also from the same book, he related how the set designer guy wasn't too thrilled with him on a script he submitted (which IIRC didn't go ahead) because set designs cost a lot of money to make and build and the budget was shoe-string enough as it was. I remember he had this awesome idea for a story that involved the Enterprise coming across an asteroid arkship which was heading towards a planet the initial builders had wanted to colonise centuries ago but was now inhabited. Actually, now that I think about it, it was very similar to a third season episode with the same premise, only Gerrold's idea was to be a two-parter IIRC. If you have the book in question, you'll probably know more.

Anyway the point I was making is that they wanted to keep the details light (as you said in the quote) but they were also quite careful with the subtle things or the implications. So big business wasn't hinted at as being a bad thing, but rather bureaucracy - in the form of that idiot in 'Tribbles' - was considered a bad thing.

Jeremy wrote:

His Divine Shadow wrote:I think it would have been quite realistic to have a society like the early TNG federation, just throw in some politicial commissars and secret police here and there to make sure everyone are toing the proper line, dissenters will be reeducated

If there ever was a Mirror-TNG, Troi filled this roll. Probably in leather too.

Diane Duane wrote a Mirror TNG novel which basically made that out as well.

It was precisely a million times better than DS9's take on the matter, but TNG fucked things up as well with 'Parallels' showing there are an infinite number of parallel universes, making the mirror verse nothing special. I always hated that idea.

Stofsk wrote:Don't forget David Gerrold was told to not criticise big business when he was writing 'Tribbles'. Also from the same book, he related how the set designer guy wasn't too thrilled with him on a script he submitted (which IIRC didn't go ahead) because set designs cost a lot of money to make and build and the budget was shoe-string enough as it was. I remember he had this awesome idea for a story that involved the Enterprise coming across an asteroid arkship which was heading towards a planet the initial builders had wanted to colonise centuries ago but was now inhabited. Actually, now that I think about it, it was very similar to a third season episode with the same premise, only Gerrold's idea was to be a two-parter IIRC. If you have the book in question, you'll probably know more.

Anyway the point I was making is that they wanted to keep the details light (as you said in the quote) but they were also quite careful with the subtle things or the implications. So big business wasn't hinted at as being a bad thing, but rather bureaucracy - in the form of that idiot in 'Tribbles' - was considered a bad thing.

I'd forgotten about that. Yeah, Gerrold was forbidden from having the antagonist be Big Business. Though, even Baris was partially vindicated by the end; it turned out that there was a plot to sabotage the grain after all, so he really was justified in demanding extra security for it.

Matt Jefferies' complaint about the sets was about Tribbles; Gerrold wanted corridors, a bar, and a store. Jefferies said it would cost too much ("do you know how much a foot of corridor costs?!"), and then Gerrold made a new friend when he had the idea to combine the bar and store into one location.

The Trek producers loved the arkship idea but it would have been too costly. The third-season episode you're thinking of is For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky (i think that's the title), and it's similar in that it has inhabitants who forgot they were on an ark, but different in that they weren't warring against each other. Also unfortunately a weak episode.

Uraniun235 wrote:I'd forgotten about that. Yeah, Gerrold was forbidden from having the antagonist be Big Business. Though, even Baris was partially vindicated by the end; it turned out that there was a plot to sabotage the grain after all, so he really was justified in demanding extra security for it.

True, though Arne Darvin was his subordinate and the saboteur, so you can kinda say that Baris was still a twit for not seeing the snake in his garden.

As an aside, I really like how the Federation is depicted in TOS. It's a subtle thing. Ambassador Fox was an asshole, Baris was a self-important dickhead who called a ship of the line to a space station under false pretences, there was another Federation bureaucrat who was a harsh asshole too in 'Galileo 7', although he had a good reason to be harsh in that episode. Prisons and penal matters are dealt with in 'Dagger of the Mind', as Kirk passionately notes how this one Doctor has strived to humanise the treatment of prisoners and attempt to rehabilitate them, then they go down and find the Doctor was actually a sick bastard. The miners in 'Devil in the Dark' were good because they were depicted at the start as being victims of some kind of alien monster, yet they turn out to be a bunch of thoughtless assholes. I always liked how the miners come across Kirk and Spock and the Horta and are screaming to 'kill it!' and Kirk gives a blunt warning 'First man that fires is dead.'

'That thing has killed dozens of my men!'

'And you've killed thousands of her children.'

Man I love that episode, that delivery was aces. It really epitomises the whole 'humanity is flawed, but is trying to better itself'. Kirk goes from wanting to kill it at the start of the episode, overruling his science officer's objections, to putting his life between it and a angry mod, and threatening to kill members of said mob in its defence.

Matt Jefferies' complaint about the sets was about Tribbles; Gerrold wanted corridors, a bar, and a store. Jefferies said it would cost too much ("do you know how much a foot of corridor costs?!"), and then Gerrold made a new friend when he had the idea to combine the bar and store into one location.

Hahaha now I remember that.

The Trek producers loved the arkship idea but it would have been too costly. The third-season episode you're thinking of is For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky (i think that's the title), and it's similar in that it has inhabitants who forgot they were on an ark, but different in that they weren't warring against each other. Also unfortunately a weak episode.

Yeah I remember now. It sounds like the initial idea morphed to what we got in season three. When I read the bit in Gerrold's book about this story idea, I really liked it. Especially how he characterised the events as 'our heroes beam onto the arkship get captured and run around getting beaten up' or something like that. Unfortunately I don't have the book, I read it in a prison library last year. I wish I had it though. It really was nice to read that introduction or background information.

That's a great book that Gerrold wrote. I found a copy in a used bookstore a few years ago, and saw someone's name scrawled on the first page; not too unusual, I've seen plenty of books whose owners had written their names in at one point... wait, that's...!!

Yeah, I've got an autographed copy. Only cost me three bucks, too.

Autographed by Gerrold? That's Awesome.

Stofsk wrote: It was precisely a million times better than DS9's take on the matter, but TNG fucked things up as well with 'Parallels' showing there are an infinite number of parallel universes, making the mirror verse nothing special. I always hated that idea.

Though having a near infinity of parallel universes sort of spits on the notions of free will and consequences, it does make more sense than having only two, implausibly similar ones.

Fry: Far out! So there's an infinite number of parallel universes?
Farnsworth: No, just the two.

Eframepilot wrote:

Stofsk wrote: It was precisely a million times better than DS9's take on the matter, but TNG fucked things up as well with 'Parallels' showing there are an infinite number of parallel universes, making the mirror verse nothing special. I always hated that idea.

Though having a near infinity of parallel universes sort of spits on the notions of free will and consequences, it does make more sense than having only two, implausibly similar ones.

Fry: Far out! So there's an infinite number of parallel universes?
Farnsworth: No, just the two.

Futurama went on to contradict itself (shock!) by showing an infinite number of parallel universes accessable through boxes.
I wonder if the writers were just THAT nerdy and obscure that they were making a jab at the Star Trek situation.

Eframepilot wrote:

Stofsk wrote: It was precisely a million times better than DS9's take on the matter, but TNG fucked things up as well with 'Parallels' showing there are an infinite number of parallel universes, making the mirror verse nothing special. I always hated that idea.

Though having a near infinity of parallel universes sort of spits on the notions of free will and consequences, it does make more sense than having only two, implausibly similar ones.

Fry: Far out! So there's an infinite number of parallel universes?
Farnsworth: No, just the two.

That was something that I've alwasy wondered about with animes involving that concept too, it's as if free will was in a way no different than random probabilities.