SGU 119, Subversion (Spoilers)

[CaptJodan]

Guys, Telford could still have been brainwashed. He could have been brainwashed into believing he honestly changed sides. You say his reasons sound hollow? There you go.

I was thinking that might be the case, yeah. I just hope they don't go the tired old 'heroic sacrifice after realizing the truth' route with Telford.

I third this. It's not like we don't have precedent. Teal'c said the same types of things when Apophis brainwashed him, and they rang equally unconvincing to the audience, and we're essentially referring back to the same process in this episode here. Ryack also went through this. Nothing I've seen from Telford indicates that he still couldn't have been brainwashed. However, IF we take TV Tropes into account, I'd be willing to bet that the writers themselves have pretty much made the decision that he's a willing traitor. Stargate, and this show in particular, hasn't had too many effective "gotcha" moments, and Jack caved pretty quickly (even after having seen this kind of brainwashing twice first hand) when Telford gave his speech. In universe, there's no reason to believe he still couldn't have been brainwashed. Out of universe, I think the writers were basically saying there "no, really, he's just a traitor".

But I could be wrong.

[NecronLord]

In fairness, there is the issue with the memory-slips from Telford.

[JME2]

Some things that came to mind. The Lucian Alliance really expanded in the post Goa'uld vacuum. Even more, after the defeat of the Free Jaffa Nation as large entity, the Lucian Alliance kept growing. It makes sense. A Human based group that is growing and assuming control. Its become a defacto government, abliet factional. Would be interesting to see what remains of the Jaffa Nation. They suffered some bad defeats early on. They lost one or two ships in the first year of the Ori incursion, but they lost a shitload of them the next year. Chulack, Dakarra, and more planets gone. Entire fleets wiped out. The Lucian Alliance on the other hand managed to gain more Hattak ships.

Well, we know from the beginning of Continuum that the FJN is still intact. But it's clear to me that with the damage inflicted by the Ori, it's not the power it was circa early Season 9 of SG-1. And yeah, I'm enjoying the Lucian Alliance here more than I did on SG-1.

The Lucian Alliance has growing ambitions. They want Destiny. But I do not think they realize quite how out of the league that ship is. Earth has the most technical knowledge thanks to assistance from the Asgard and access to Atlantis. The Jaffa and Lucian Alliance cannot match this knowledge. The Lucian Alliance wants technology from the Destiny, but doesn't seem to realize its out of their grasp.

Another Icarus planet. But no mentions of ZPMs. I am wondering about the power requirements. And I am wondering if its more than just raw power. I also suspect we are dealing with a Retcon here.

I've been wondering about that.

Even if Kiva manages to dial Destiny and takes control of the ship, it's a one-way trip. Telford's been passing on information about the Expedition; she has to know what we've known since "Water", that the ship' power capacitors don't have the charge needed to dial the Milky Way. Granted, it's possible she doesn't know, but I somehow doubt it.

So, let's assume she does know. There are a couple of possibilities for her to dial the Milky Way. The Alliance may have located additional ZPM's in the Milky Way. Perhaps Telford passed on the Wormhole Drive specs and she's confident that the engines can be modified.

The additional problem for her is that the we know from "Air" that there's only one 9-symbol address in the ship's databanks and it's all but certain to be Earth. Even if she makes a connection, she's got a one-way trip into Atlantis' gate room (Remember, Atlantis is on Earth and the SGC's gate would automatically be overridden by the Atlantis gate because the Pegasus gates are newer models, as we saw in "Enemey in the Gate".)

I'm very interested to see how this unfolds, of course.

[adam_grif]

Heh, I wonder what O'Neill does in his office all day if all incoming wormhole traffic is redirected to Atlantis

As far as the superplanet is concerned, I'm thinking one of two things will happen:

- Rush will rig it to fucking explode after one use like it did in Air, and take the opportunity to dive through it in Telford's body, possibly with some other LA people following him.
- It will get captured by SGC, and used to ferry supplies periodically through to Destiny.

The former is probably more likely.

[spaceviking]

If the Lucian gate is captured by the SGC I really hope any supply dump is a one time thing, otherwise the series would likely become Atlantis 2.0.

[Imperial Overlord]

Capturing and holding are two different things. Besides the possibility of blowing up the planet when they squabble over it (or deliberately to deny it to the other side), there's the little detail that the Lucian Alliance has a lot of muscle. SGC might only be able to throw through some supplies, wreck the place, and bug out before a large Lucian fleet shows up.

[adam_grif]

I really hope that we see some fucking sweet space battles Milky wayside. I lurves me some 304 action, as opposed to the kind of lame-ass crippled ship takes on crappy alien ship action we've been getting thus far.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'm betting we get at least 1 Lucian Alliance character joining the crew as a regular next season.

[Manus Celer Dei]

Something I'm wondering about that I didn't catch in the episode itself... How did Rush know Kiva's name?

I'm not sure, but I think that was supposed to be Rush pulling it out of Telford's residual memories or something similar.

I'm betting we get at least 1 Lucian Alliance character joining the crew as a regular next season.

That'd be kinda difficult to pull off, since basically everyone (except maybe Rush) would seriously hate whoever it was because the Lucians are responsible for them being trapped on Destiny. They'd have to have something really useful to contribute to the rest of the crew for them show even a bit of tolerance, I'd think.

[Sarevok]

Holy shit ! They actually said G'ould in this episode. Have they ever acknowledged any of the events in past series like this before ?

[Alyeska]

Holy shit ! They actually said G'ould in this episode. Have they ever acknowledged any of the events in past series like this before ?

Ascension, General Hammond. O'Neill admitting Carted saved his ass through technobabble.

[JME2]

Holy shit ! They actually said G'ould in this episode. Have they ever acknowledged any of the events in past series like this before ?

The ATA gene, Atlantis database, and the encounters with the Repositories of Knowledge have also been mentioned across the season. Also, Rush mentions the Goa'uld in the extended version of "Air" when he gives Eli the 411 on the Lucian Alliance. O'Neill also makes reference to the original Abydos mission in what's probably my favorite scene from the pilot:

YOUNG: We're not supposed to be there, sir. These are the wrong people in the wrong place and, as a group, they're just not qualified.

O'NEILL: Oh, please! I wasn't qualified to lead that first team through the Stargate ...

YOUNG: I understand that, sir ...

O'NEILL: In the past dozen years or so, we've sent hundreds of teams through that thing.

(He thinks for a moment, then smiles ruefully.)

O'NEILL: I think the bottom line is: none of us are qualified.

[CaptJodan]

That'd be kinda difficult to pull off, since basically everyone (except maybe Rush) would seriously hate whoever it was because the Lucians are responsible for them being trapped on Destiny. They'd have to have something really useful to contribute to the rest of the crew for them show even a bit of tolerance, I'd think.

No more difficult than pulling off Wray or Chloe. The latter has no use at all, but is tolerated, while the former helped lead a rebellion against the military, and has generally been a bitch any time she's on Destiny, only being human when she's home. The fact that Wray didn't strand them there is a good point, but at this point I'd happily have one of the Alliance's people with some competence there to add to the crew and keep their hostility rather than have Wray, who serves no more useful a purpose than Chloe, but manages to bitch a hell of a lot more.

[Bilbo]

Do we know what happens if someone dies while mindswapped through the stones? Does both sides die? Does the other person get permanently stuck in the other person's body when he dies?

I have not seen the entire episode but I read that they were interrogating and threatening to kill Telford while he is in Rush's body. How is that supposed to be a threat to Telford? Even if he thinks it will kill him he has to still know that this would kill or remove (if Rush is permanently stuck in Telford's body) the one person most likely to figure out a way home.

Also, another super special blow up if you look at it wrong planet? Considering how little effort it took for the first one to explode in the pilot episode how could any of these survive for very long?

[JME2]

I just had another thought last night before I went to bed.

One of the lingering questions from "Air" was why the Hammond was having trouble slicing and dicing the Ha'taks. Joe Mallozzi's said on his blog that just because Earth had advanced its technology didn't mean that the rest of the galaxy hadn't. So where did the Lucian Alliance get the tech to be able to stand up to a BC-304?

I remember that we speculated on multiple possibilities from remnants of Anubis' upgraded fleet to salvaged Ori tech. But there's another possibility presented by this episode.

As of this writing, we know for certain that Telford passed on information about Icarus and based on Kiva's dialogue, updates on the Destiny Expedition's status. But he's doing this for at least a year; there's no telling what other SGC secrets are now in the Alliance's hands. Chances are also good Telford passed on tech specs for the 304's weapons and defensive systems. I doubt we're going to see Ha'taks firing Asgard beams, but it was probably enough to hold an edge over the Tau'ri fleet.

[Themightytom]

I just had another thought last night before I went to bed.

One of the lingering questions from "Air" was why the Hammond was having trouble slicing and dicing the Ha'taks. Joe Mallozzi's said on his blog that just because Earth had advanced its technology didn't mean that the rest of the galaxy hadn't. So where did the Lucian Alliance get the tech to be able to stand up to a BC-304?

I remember that we speculated on multiple possibilities from remnants of Anubis' upgraded fleet to salvaged Ori tech. But there's another possibility presented by this episode.

As of this writing, we know for certain that Telford passed on information about Icarus and based on Kiva's dialogue, updates on the Destiny Expedition's status. But he's doing this for at least a year; there's no telling what other SGC secrets are now in the Alliance's hands. Chances are also good Telford passed on tech specs for the 304's weapons and defensive systems. I doubt we're going to see Ha'taks firing Asgard beams, but it was probably enough to hold an edge over the Tau'ri fleet.

We only saw rail guns firing back at the Hataks from the hammond but that could mean that Carter had already determined that the beam weapons weren't as effective.

[JME2]

Yeah, I wish we'd been able to see at least one volley of Asgard beams during the Battle to make it clear, but oh well.

[Gramzamber]

Malozzi is full of shit. Even if it was salvaged Ori tech, I don't recall the Ori doing great against Asgard doom beams either.
It's especially ridiculous given that the Luciens are a bunch of gangsters with knockoff Goa'uld ships. Yeah they've gotten better than the ridiculous chest beating pirates they were in SG-1, but still.

[Themightytom]

Malozzi is full of shit. Even if it was salvaged Ori tech, I don't recall the Ori doing great against Asgard doom beams either.
It's especially ridiculous given that the Luciens are a bunch of gangsters with knockoff Goa'uld ships. Yeah they've gotten better than the ridiculous chest beating pirates they were in SG-1, but still.

well they clearly have such an abundance of talent that they have no qualms about killing the one scientist they have working on a major project when a better one is accidentally kidnapped and coerced to help in a manner that can be disconnected at any time.

er wait how is this an improvement over their depiction in SG-1...

[Bilbo]

I just had another thought last night before I went to bed.

One of the lingering questions from "Air" was why the Hammond was having trouble slicing and dicing the Ha'taks. Joe Mallozzi's said on his blog that just because Earth had advanced its technology didn't mean that the rest of the galaxy hadn't. So where did the Lucian Alliance get the tech to be able to stand up to a BC-304?

I remember that we speculated on multiple possibilities from remnants of Anubis' upgraded fleet to salvaged Ori tech. But there's another possibility presented by this episode.

As of this writing, we know for certain that Telford passed on information about Icarus and based on Kiva's dialogue, updates on the Destiny Expedition's status. But he's doing this for at least a year; there's no telling what other SGC secrets are now in the Alliance's hands. Chances are also good Telford passed on tech specs for the 304's weapons and defensive systems. I doubt we're going to see Ha'taks firing Asgard beams, but it was probably enough to hold an edge over the Tau'ri fleet.

We only saw rail guns firing back at the Hataks from the hammond but that could mean that Carter had already determined that the beam weapons weren't as effective.

Or it meant that Sam knew what everyone else knew in a matter of minutes that using powerful high energy weapons would make planet boom boom go boom. If a few shots from a Hatak and strafing runs by some deathgliders was all it took to blow up the planet then for sure one miss with the Asgard beam weapon would have done the same.

Also we know Sam was trying to beam up as many people off the planet as possible. I doubt the power requirements of the beam weapon are trivial so she opted to maxmize beaming ability by not using the weapon.

Most likely it was a combination of both reasons. Sam needed as much power as possible to beam people up from the surface and knew that a single errant Asgard beam would detonate the planet.

[NecronLord]

Do we know what happens if someone dies while mindswapped through the stones? Does both sides die?

This. When the Ori followers burnt Vala, her own body began to die, until the host body was ressurected by a prior.

[Zac Naloen]

Or it was a unfinished ship, on a milk-run, rushed into service because the rest of Earths ships are stranded in the Pegasus Galaxy. The episode Air in terms of the time line (again according to mallozzi) is set almost immediately post Enemy at the Gates. IIRC they were out of action for over a week plus the journey time home.

Earth is frankly lucky that Atlantis ended up in San Francisco at this point, because it would have been a sitting duck without it's chair.

[NecronLord]

Malozzi is full of shit. Even if it was salvaged Ori tech, I don't recall the Ori doing great against Asgard doom beams either.

Correction. Great against Asgard beams backed by a ZPM. There's no reason to think a standard 304 with Asgard beams could destroy an Ori ship nearly as easily (IE, before it was destroyed) remember, without time-fuckery, Odyssey couldn't take three at once, and it has a ZPM. For all we know, Daedalus or Apollo would be broken in half by a toilet ship still.

And he didn't say it was Ori, he just said that they had improved their technology from source unknown - for all we know, they have the Thessura Infinatas, found a cache of Furling Hyper-Armaments, or managed to access remnants of Replicator knowledge. Or all of those plus some more things. The pertinent fact is that the Lucians now field small flotillas of ha'taks capable of going toe to to with 304s. The how is, as yet, unknown.

[NecronLord]

they have no qualms about killing the one scientist they have working on a major project

In fairness to them, it's not so bad. They have a functioning goa'uld technology base. If they need Olan again, he's one short sarcophagus trip away.

[CaptJodan]

Or it was a unfinished ship, on a milk-run, rushed into service because the rest of Earths ships are stranded in the Pegasus Galaxy.

This is my chosen theory at the moment. Combat wasn't expected, the other 304s took a pounding trying to stop the super-duper-uber hive, and so with a limited amount of ships, and being a low-threat mission, the Hammond is sent out to deliver some VIPs to a planet.

The fact that the Hammond didn't even TRY to fire the Asgard beams as far as we saw (nor missiles, I might add), and that the rail guns are the lightest, and probably most ineffective weapons the 304 has, just makes me lean to the fact that the ship didn't yet have them, they were incomplete, or at best, that perhaps they decided shields and transporters were more important than weapons at that moment. None of which indicates that they there is now some kind of uber-super-duper Hatak's out there. On screen evidence just doesn't make that pan out. Certainly the Hatak's weapons don't seem significantly improved. The Hammond was able to hang in on that fight for a long time.