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Temujin wrote:That is a pretty good reason why they might elevate such a position to be part of the bridge crew.

No, it is not. The place to keep a close eye on someone is in off-duty social settings. The last place one needs such a person to be is on the bridge. The bridge is for running the ship and controlling emergency situations. Anyway, the captain is only there for part of the time, and whilst there has plenty of eyes on him/her. The councillor would be wasting their time being there (as has no relevant duty on the bridge), and would be, as Kirk would say, a dunsel.

Uraniun235 wrote:The US Navy appears to also have clinical and counseling psychologists and they appear to sometimes deployed on aircraft carriers.

It isn't surprising considering the size of those things and that they basically function as a portable town that deals solely in high stress jobs.

Additionally, given that we saw more than one starship commander crack during the run of TOS, I can easily see Starfleet deciding there needs to be someone keeping a close eye on the captain. Hell, if he hadn't had Spock and McCoy with him, Kirk himself might have been burned out by the end of his five-year mission.

I think the Yeoman staff helped out a bit more there.

I dunno. I watched TNG since it first hit the airwaves, and while yes Troi did occasionally rah rah, she didn't do it any more than Picard or Data. And I'm pretty positive when people make comparisons to 'political officers' they are thinking of the type shown in The Hunt for Red October that is there to keep the troops in line out of fear of punishment when they get back to port.

B5B7 wrote:

Temujin wrote:That is a pretty good reason why they might elevate such a position to be part of the bridge crew.

No, it is not. The place to keep a close eye on someone is in off-duty social settings. The last place one needs such a person to be is on the bridge. The bridge is for running the ship and controlling emergency situations. Anyway, the captain is only there for part of the time, and whilst there has plenty of eyes on him/her. The councillor would be wasting their time being there (as has no relevant duty on the bridge), and would be, as Kirk would say, a dunsel.

Is it established that all counselors are part of the bridge crew? Or is it just the Picard values Troi's presence not only for her insights, but for her abilities. She certainly provides him with a distinct advantage over most people they come into contact with.

It’s been a while since I watched DS9, but I’m pretty sure the second Dax was a councillor who frequently was on the bridge on the defiant.

That was hardly in her role as Counsellor though. Mainly I think she was on the science console, because Sisko had known and trusted her last two incarnations.

spaceviking wrote:It’s been a while since I watched DS9, but I’m pretty sure the second Dax was a councillor who frequently was on the bridge on the defiant.

Yes, but I'm pretty sure that was mainly because of Dax and not because of Ezri, if the two can be separated. Ezri Dax was as much special as Troi, because she was a joined trill with a very old and experienced symbiont. There is still no evidence that regular counselors are a normal part of starship bridge crews, since basically they are just psychologists with a different title.

Marcus Aurelius wrote:

spaceviking wrote:It’s been a while since I watched DS9, but I’m pretty sure the second Dax was a councillor who frequently was on the bridge on the defiant.

Yes, but I'm pretty sure that was mainly because of Dax and not because of Ezri, if the two can be separated. Ezri Dax was as much special as Troi, because she was a joined trill with a very old and experienced symbiont. There is still no evidence that regular counselors are a normal part of starship bridge crews, since basically they are just psychologists with a different title.

She also manned a console, which implies doing more than counselling.

spaceviking wrote:It’s been a while since I watched DS9, but I’m pretty sure the second Dax was a councillor who frequently was on the bridge on the defiant.

I she was serving as a counselor, but IIRC mentioned that she was ether pretty new at it and/or wasn't very good at it. Then she got the symbiont crap thrust upon her fucking up her own emotions. She pretty much served in a capacity like Dax, just not with the level of seniority that Jadzia had.

B5B7 wrote:No, it is not. The place to keep a close eye on someone is in off-duty social settings. The last place one needs such a person to be is on the bridge. The bridge is for running the ship and controlling emergency situations. Anyway, the captain is only there for part of the time, and whilst there has plenty of eyes on him/her. The councillor would be wasting their time being there (as has no relevant duty on the bridge), and would be, as Kirk would say, a dunsel.

I disagree, they would need to to be able to observe the captain under a variety of situations, including high stress ones.

Havok wrote:Is it established that all counselors are part of the bridge crew? Or is it just the Picard values Troi's presence not only for her insights, but for her abilities. She certainly provides him with a distinct advantage over most people they come into contact with.

Hard to tell as we only really saw Troi in action. If empathic/telepathic abilities were a prerequisite to being a counselor than putting them on the bridge would make sense both in helping during negotiations as well as keeping an eye on the captain's mental state.

Havok wrote:I dunno. I watched TNG since it first hit the airwaves, and while yes Troi did occasionally rah rah, she didn't do it any more than Picard or Data. And I'm pretty positive when people make comparisons to 'political officers' they are thinking of the type shown in The Hunt for Red October that is there to keep the troops in line out of fear of punishment when they get back to port.

Sure, Picard did his share of preaching, but that's kind of expected from a figure head. But I think the amount that came from Troi was out of proportion to her position, and with her empathic abilities a bit creepy. Imagine she's rambling at you about the glories of the Federation and in your mind your doing this , or even this . She's going to know and that in itself is a bit uncomfortable.

One other point is that Starfleet ships seem to regularly run into weird aliens and monsters that can communicate telepathically, change shape, or control peoples minds. Having an empath like Troi on hand should help them identify and deal with such threats.

So, her job description would include not only helping starfleet personnel keep their sanity during their long trips into the unknown, but also as one line of defense in case they run into weird paranormal psychic stuff. Even if she lacks the qualifications to be a true psychologist or counselor, her empathic senses would at least give them a heads up if something weird shows up with the intent of messing up the crew. When she loses her empathic senses then suddenly she can't do that.

I admit that it has been several years since I've seen an episode, but I think there have been a few cases where Troi has sensed "something wrong" with one of the crewmen who have been replaced by doubles or are being controlled by alien minds.

That touches on some stuff I referred to earlier, but I think that having individuals with empathic and even telepathic abilities on board should be mandatory at this point. Sorta their own version of Psi-Corp. After all, in TOS they had plenty of examples of how strong telepaths could ruin their shit for them, the Melkotians being a perfect example.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Chris OFarrell wrote:As they pointed out in that episode, she wasn't 'Qualified for Command', she just held the rank...and for some reason that meant she was in charge???

Her not being competent to command the ship because she hasn't been trained for it is one thing, and is understandable.

Not understanding that loss of AM containment means the ship will blow is pretty basic stuff, even for a medical officer.

How the hell did she ever graduate from Starfleet academy without even knowing that 1 piece of info?

Perhaps she had just gone without her morning coffee that particular day?

Yes, Antimatter is a crucial concept when it comes to psychology, how could she not know that! Silly woman! For goodness sake, people. They just needed some exposition to make it clear to the entire audience what the stakes were.

My point was containment fields aren't supposed to be losing power, something even a idiot would know, let alone someone who graduated from Starfleet academy.

I know what your point was. Now get my point; It's a line that tells the audience something the writer's felt they need to know. That's it. It really doesn't require the amount of harping on about it gets from retarded tryhards.

Troi is a Counsellor, why the fuck should she know what antimatter does? Seriously if you asked a janitor on a nuclear sub, he wouldn't b able to tell you jackshit about its reactor either. Yes, she gets that losing containment is a bad thing but she obviously doesn't know the exact result. It could be anything from 'we won't have main power' to 'ships blows up' so she asks someone who does know.

A nuclear sub might be a bad analogy; it might be more effective to return to the aircraft carrier analogy. How many of the clinical psychs that find themselves on a CVN have an understanding of how the ship's powerplant actually works?

I see your point, but I think Starfleet Academy must have offered some mandatory classes for all students, like basic physics and chem.

Doubtful, as Troi's position wouldn't require knowledge of either. I mean, I don't think they teach air force personnel the workings of submarine systems. And even then, 'physics' is pretty broad--if they gave out mandatory classes in relativistic physics at the academy, than that doesn't mean that all students leave with knowledge of the consequences of an antimatter leak on a ship.

Well, at least they would know that Antimatter+matter=BAD.

They have fucking kids taking calculus courses, I don't see why Troi couldn't take Starship Operations for Dummies; you know, just so she doesn't accidentally flush her ass out of an airlock or something.

So basically if they had had Marna Sirtis (Troi) get the line about the ship blowing up, rather than Colm Meaney (O'Brian), it would have made her character a bit more decent?

I.e. changing it to:

O'BRIEN
(ominously)
If it falls to fifteen percent... the field will collapse and there'll be a containment breach.

TROI
And the ship will explode.

Well it would have made her charecter look a lot less stupid. Hell, I would think, considering all the time she spends on the bridge, especially during crisis situations, that she would have picked up that basic fact just in passing.

A warp core containment breech is bad, m'kay!

Night_stalker wrote:

Captain Seafort wrote:

Chris OFarrell wrote:As they pointed out in that episode, she wasn't 'Qualified for Command', she just held the rank...and for some reason that meant she was in charge???

Her not being competent to command the ship because she hasn't been trained for it is one thing, and is understandable.

Not understanding that loss of AM containment means the ship will blow is pretty basic stuff, even for a medical officer.

How the hell did she ever graduate from Starfleet academy without even knowing that 1 piece of info?

Maybe she owned a pair of kneepads.

Uraniun235 wrote:A nuclear sub might be a bad analogy; it might be more effective to return to the aircraft carrier analogy. How many of the clinical psychs that find themselves on a CVN have an understanding of how the ship's powerplant actually works?

I think if you told a psych (or anyone, really) that the reactor was about to meltdown on the carrier that they'd have a pretty good idea of what that meant.

Srelex wrote:Doubtful, as Troi's position wouldn't require knowledge of either. I mean, I don't think they teach air force personnel the workings of submarine systems. And even then, 'physics' is pretty broad--if they gave out mandatory classes in relativistic physics at the academy, than that doesn't mean that all students leave with knowledge of the consequences of an antimatter leak on a ship.

Wasn't Wesley taking classes in philosophy and poetry and shit? When he was a helmsman and science geek? From Picard's commentary, it seems they expect Starfleet personnel to know a little of everything, at least the upper ranks.