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Gramzamber wrote:Okay really, you're going to list the Empire's losses that the Rebellion itself is responsible for due in no small amount to a hell of a lot of luck the Force being on their side?
Yes, Imperial arrogance and Palpatine's late life senilty were a factor in it but you know what? They're still better than the amateur morons of the New Republic.

Wait, Palpatine was SENILE and that's why the Empire was bad? Are you fucking kidding me?

Give me some evidence that Palpatine was senile. This ought to be good.

Also Coruscant was reclaimed not by the NR, but by the GA which hey, had the Imperial Remnant as a part in it.
I actually don't know the specifics of the end of the Vong farce as it bored me to tears, but wasn't the Vong's departure from Coruscant more due to external factors (some sentient planet telling them to fuck off) rather than a military victory?

If you don't know the specifics then don't act like a fucking expert. The Galactic Alliance, made up largely of the New Republic, was on its way to winning the war by the time of "The Unifying Force", Meanwhile the Imperial Remnant was a small fraction of its former self, smaller than it had ever been really as they had just lost Bastion and were on the way towards being wiped out by the Vong.

The Vong were knocked off Coruscant because they lost the battle, Their Overlord and the Vong pulling his strings were both killed, the Vong fleet was being beaten.

Let it be known that Gramzamber made the claim that the New Republic displayed "criminal incompetence." Proof of said claim has been asked of him and none has been given.

Gramzamber wrote:The Empire lost it's pet projects, the NR lost the galactic center.

BULLSHIT. Havok totally called you out on the Empire losing Coruscant to the Rebellion and you've completely ignored that.

Gramzamber wrote:

Havok wrote:So the NR's loses and incompetence count, but it doesn't matter when it happens to the Empire?

They both count, it's a question of scale. The Empire lost it's pet projects, the NR lost the galactic center.

Uh... hey dumbfuck, the Empire lost Coruscant to the Rebellion/NR.

And saying the Imperial Remnant=Empire is so absolutely ridiculous it doesn't even garner a response.

That's nice, because I didn't say that.
Of course it isn't Palpatine's Empire.. The point being the NR as the Empire's replacement could do dick on it's own, it had to gather up with other fractured factions of the galaxy to kick out something that should never have been a problem in the first place.

No but you implied it.
That aside... so The Empire would have whooped the Vong no problem because it controlled the entire galaxy.
The NR which was only a portion of the galaxy had trouble with the Vong until it was able to bring the rest of the galaxy into the fight. So once the NR had sway over the whole galaxy, it defeated the Vong. Yeah...see where I am going with this?

Darth Fanboy wrote:

Gramzamber wrote:The Empire lost it's pet projects, the NR lost the galactic center.

BULLSHIT. Havok totally called you out on the Empire losing Coruscant to the Rebellion and you've completely ignored that.

Actually, It should be noted that the Empire lost Coruscant to the New Republic twice. The first time, Isard literally handed it to them on a silver platter 'cause she wanted to pull her insane bullshit with the Krytos virus and her bacta-scheme. Then they lost it for a second time because the Empire fell back into warlordism upon the death of the reborn Emperor.

But the Empire is totally competent, and not insane or retarded in the slightest......

Darth Fanboy wrote:Wait, Palpatine was SENILE and that's why the Empire was bad?

No, his senility in RotJ is why they LOST.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Give me some evidence that Palpatine was senile. This ought to be good.

Again with this. Are you saying laying a decoy trap where your decoy is in fact the real target and slowly torturing Darth Vader's son to death right in front of him right after declaring you intended to have Vader killed are the actions of a lucid individual?

If you don't know the specifics then don't act like a fucking expert. The Galactic Alliance, made up largely of the New Republic, was on its way to winning the war by the time of "The Unifying Force", Meanwhile the Imperial Remnant was a small fraction of its former self, smaller than it had ever been really as they had just lost Bastion and were on the way towards being wiped out by the Vong.

The Vong were knocked off Coruscant because they lost the battle, Their Overlord and the Vong pulling his strings were both killed, the Vong fleet was being beat

.

Fair enough, they got their shit together after a crippling loss.

Let it be known that Gramzamber made the claim that the New Republic displayed "criminal incompetence." Proof of said claim has been asked of him and none has been given.

You mean outright losing the galactic center is not enough? Oh I have to go through the nonsensical EU to convince you that the NR had bad leadership when that's pretty much a given?

Darth Fanboy wrote:BULLSHIT. Havok totally called you out on the Empire losing Coruscant to the Rebellion and you've completely ignored that.

No. I don't mean, "lost to another faction".
I mean LOST as in lost to space monsters who intended to wreck the entire planet and kill everyone on it who weren't them.
The fact that the GA later got it back before this planetary rape could be completed is irrelevant. They still lost it and almost lost it forever.

The Empire has big badass starships and troops in full body armour with rayguns.

I'm pretty sure about 90% of it boils down to that, and little else.

Gramzamber wrote:
Again with this. Are you saying laying a decoy trap where your decoy is in fact the real target and slowly torturing Darth Vader's son to death right in front of him right after declaring you intended to have Vader killed are the actions of a lucid individual?

You dolt that's not senility, that's ARROGANCE.

Fair enough, they got their shit together after a crippling loss.

Yes, a crippling loss where they were attacked by an unknown enemy who launched a surprise invasion who had many years of prep time all the while the New Republic was demilitarizing because...well...what war did they think they were going to be fighting?

You mean outright losing the galactic center is not enough? Oh I have to go through the nonsensical EU to convince you that the NR had bad leadership when that's pretty much a given?

The NR lost an important battle, great we all knew that already prove that it is criminal incompetence that should be used to condemn the government. Losing the galactic center despite their best efforts is a worse crime than exterminating and enslaving entire species?

Darth Fanboy wrote: No. I don't mean, "lost to another faction".
I mean LOST as in lost to space monsters who intended to wreck the entire planet and kill everyone on it who weren't them.
The fact that the GA later got it back before this planetary rape could be completed is irrelevant. They still lost it and almost lost it forever.

The Vong aren't a faction? What kind of semantic bullshit is this?

Darksider wrote: Actually, It should be noted that the Empire lost Coruscant to the New Republic twice. The first time, Isard literally handed it to them on a silver platter 'cause she wanted to pull her insane bullshit with the Krytos virus and her bacta-scheme. Then they lost it for a second time because the Empire fell back into warlordism upon the death of the reborn Emperor.

But the Empire is totally competent, and not insane or retarded in the slightest......

Good call.

Darth Fanboy wrote:You dolt that's not senility, that's ARROGANCE.

In my mind it's senility.
You're welcome to disagree.

Yes, a crippling loss where they were attacked by an unknown enemy who launched a surprise invasion who had many years of prep time all the while the New Republic was demilitarizing because...well...what war did they think they were going to be fighting?

Well gee how about.. um... the numerous uprisings, invasions and Imperial resurgence of the week since the fall of the Empire?
Warlords, Thrawns and Palpatine clones, oh my!

The NR lost an important battle, great we all knew that already prove that it is criminal incompetence that should be used to condemn the government. Losing the galactic center despite their best efforts is a worse crime than exterminating and enslaving entire species?

Lost due to an incompetent and corrupt head of state and military commanders refusing to use defences effectively because the Vong were using civilian hostages despite the lives of trillions on Coruscant itself being at stake.

The Vong aren't a faction? What kind of semantic bullshit is this?

That's not what I meant and you know it, since you ignored the rest of the post.
Fine, "not just another faction. Am I clear enough now?

I imagine some of it is simply because it's an entertaining intellectual exercise. On a purely aesthetic basis, the Galactic Empire appeals to the base, authoritarian instincts in the human psyche - there's a lot in that huge military machine that can stir those instincts - the uniforms, the stormtroopers, the Imperial March.

Gramzamber wrote: In my mind it's senility.
You're welcome to disagree.

Sorry, if you're going to argue a point on this message board there are debating rules that you don't get to ignore. Or should I just take everything you say at face value and leave it at that because, in your mind, you' don't think you are as stupid as you actually are.

Well gee how about.. um... the numerous uprisings, invasions and Imperial resurgence of the week since the fall of the Empire?
Warlords, Thrawns and Palpatine clones, oh my!

Demonstrate that the New Republic was, as you put it, criminally incompetent when in fact they defeated all of those threats while at the same time attempting to bring together different-minded into a government?

The fact is you are accusing the New Republic of things that are quite literally outside of their control.

Lost due to an incompetent and corrupt head of state and military commanders refusing to use defences effectively because the Vong were using civilian hostages despite the lives of trillions on Coruscant itself being at stake.

Yeah and that's the only reason they lost. It's not as if the Vong were adapting their tactics, bringing in multiple yammosks, and committing so many of their forces to the taking of Coruscant that they used up a lot of their military might getting there...

That's not what I meant and you know it, since you ignored the rest of the post.
Fine, "not just another faction. Am I clear enough now?

No you fucking prick, because just because the Vong are extragalactic invaders with a different agenda than the Empire, DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THE EMPIRE LOST CORUSCANT. Twice actually as another poster has just brought up.

Mr Pratchett and Mr Gaiman summed it up best - "The Them were, anyway, temperamentally on the side of planet destroyers, provided they could be allowed to rescue princesses at the same time."

Hmmmm, let's see... Because they are cool and fictional?

I'll be the first to acknowledge that the Nazis had snappy uniforms, cool gadgets and a colorful flag, but they also massacred real people in the real world, and pushed an aberrant ideology on real societies.

The SW Empire, on the other hand, is pure fiction, so no harm in ejoying their snappy uniforms, cool tech and not so colorful flag. And Vader.

Yeah that is some great info, but it fails completely to address or answer the thread's question which is 'Why are there so many imperial APOLOGISTS?'
It is not, 'why do people think the empire is cool'.

Many people seem to not only find no fault in the Empire but make excuses for why they allowed and committed GROSS violations of what we would call human rights. Genocide and slavery on a scale that would make Hitler fucking blush are the two biggest atrocities that people seem to ignore and make excuses for, of course somehow ending up at the Jedi and the New/Old Republic being evil and criminal somehow.

So now is your answer really 'because they are cool and fictional?' with that nice little condescending, smarmy tone thrown in?

Oskuro wrote:I'll be the first to acknowledge that the Nazis had snappy uniforms, cool gadgets and a colorful flag, but they also massacred real people in the real world, and pushed an aberrant ideology on real societies.

Yeah it was aberrant, to us, but in it's time fascism was a big thing and wasn't considered 'bad' or 'wrong' like it is today (well, among certain people anyway). It was abhorrent as well though.

(I don't mean this to sound like a nitpick btw)

Vympel wrote:I imagine some of it is simply because it's an entertaining intellectual exercise. On a purely aesthetic basis, the Galactic Empire appeals to the base, authoritarian instincts in the human psyche - there's a lot in that huge military machine that can stir those instincts - the uniforms, the stormtroopers, the Imperial March.

The Rebels have uniforms as well, and military ships and fighters and so on. The difference is you can see their faces, unlike the stormtroopers and TIE pilots we see.

I don't mind an objective, unbiased appraisal of both the Rebel Alliance and the Galactic Empire, but too many people claim objectivity when they're clearly biased against the Rebels in favour of the Imperials. Some of the most absurd things I've read is 'oh Alderaan wasn't that bad' because apparently wiping out a billion people on one planet isn't an atrocity when there are at least a trillion people on Coruscant alone (and plenty more when you account for the Core worlds and so on).

The logic in that argument is total bullshit, and yet it gets made in an earnest fashion.

That argument, and the latest that just blew my mind... that Alderran deserved it. I mean, like... fucking what?! Not just the actual people committing treason (and yes, they were doing that) but every single man, woman and child... the entire civilization, all it's history... everything deserved it.

I really didn't think we had any, let alone so many, Travissites on the board.

No, no, you got it wrong. Alderran did'nt deserve to be destroyed, they were asking for it

Blowing Alderran to bits is the undeniably evil thing the empire does. It doesn't matter if it was a planet of peace loving hippies (as the rebel propaganda, um EU posits) or jack-booted thugs serving a different absolutist regime (as Mr Brin madly imagines), it's evil. It's not a sad case of why you don't send soldiers to do police work. It's an evil act and demonstrates that the Empire is evil beyond big yellow letters saying so.

dworkin wrote:No, no, you got it wrong. Alderran did'nt deserve to be destroyed, they were asking for it

Shouldn't have worn such a short planetary shield. You could see right up to the mantle, it didn't cover anything.

The reason that there are so many Imperial apologists is because people's beliefs are shaped far more on appearance as opposed to reason. "They look cool" can very quickly turn into "Alderaan deserved it" without there actually being a rational line of though connecting the two; people refuse to let facts get in the way of "fandom". Today's political climate doesn't help, as there are no longer "evil empires" but plenty of "terrorist groups" which ends up painting the OT in a different light, so people with the inability to recontextualize end up associating the rebels with terrorism and the enemies of the terrorists as the good guys.

Havok wrote:So now is your answer really 'because they are cool and fictional?'

Don't be like that, you're right, I misunderstood the question, I thought it was about people rooting for a fictional faction rather than about people making actual arguments in favor of why that faction is right.

From that perspective the faction being fictional is no longer an excuse. It's like me and the Orks from Wh40k, I root for them, but would never defend their ideals seriously, or try to justify them.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Sorry, if you're going to argue a point on this message board there are debating rules that you don't get to ignore. Or should I just take everything you say at face value and leave it at that because, in your mind, you' don't think you are as stupid as you actually are.

Because apparently obsessive compulsive wankers like you have to get others to justify everything they say.
Here's a tip: It doesn't matter.
Whether it's senility or arrogance or outright stupidity, Palpatine made mistakes.

Demonstrate that the New Republic was, as you put it, criminally incompetent when in fact they defeated all of those threats

"They" as in "our same band of heroes" propping up the NR 90% of the time.

while at the same time attempting to bring together different-minded into a government?

What?

The fact is you are accusing the New Republic of things that are quite literally outside of their control.

You are an idiot.
That was not an accusation.
You asked why the NR should expect another war.
I pointed out they've had nothing but war for their entire time in power. Gee I wonder why they should think they should be prepared?

Yeah and that's the only reason they lost. It's not as if the Vong were adapting their tactics, bringing in multiple yammosks, and committing so many of their forces to the taking of Coruscant that they used up a lot of their military might getting there...

So all tactical and political incompetence is to be ignored then?

No you fucking prick, because just because the Vong are extragalactic invaders with a different agenda than the Empire, DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THE EMPIRE LOST CORUSCANT. Twice actually as another poster has just brought up.

How does someone manage to be so stupid and still literate enough to use a keyboard?
That they're another faction is irrelevant.
That they're extragalactic invaders is irrelevant.
The fact that they almost DESTROYED CORUSCANT is the problem! Previous invasions would cause collateral damage, sure. The Vong intended to, and I have to repeat this again, replace the entire planetary infrastructure with their own shit and kill EVERYONE who didn't evacuate.

I gotta admit, it's pretty hilarious that the OP's complaining about this on a website called Stardestroyer.net, with a front-page banner that goes "This website is dedicated [sic] the most majestic starship in science fiction: The Imperial Star Destroyer" and a section entitled "I want YOU for the Galactic Empire."

The short answer is, the Empire is cool and the Rebels are all lame. The long answer has, in short, already been repeated about a billion times over all over the place.

Gramzamber wrote:

Darth Fanboy wrote:Sorry, if you're going to argue a point on this message board there are debating rules that you don't get to ignore. Or should I just take everything you say at face value and leave it at that because, in your mind, you' don't think you are as stupid as you actually are.

Because apparently obsessive compulsive wankers like you have to get others to justify everything they say.
Here's a tip: It doesn't matter.
Whether it's senility or arrogance or outright stupidity, Palpatine made mistakes.

Oh so now it is just mistakes and not senility as you have claimed in TWO threads now. If you back pedal any faster, you may hurt yourself. Oh and here is a tip: If you make a claim as fact, TWICE, it does matter. Especially when you can't back it up.

Demonstrate that the New Republic was, as you put it, criminally incompetent when in fact they defeated all of those threats

"They" as in "our same band of heroes" propping up the NR 90% of the time.

Wait... did they leave the NR and no one told me?

The fact is you are accusing the New Republic of things that are quite literally outside of their control.

You are an idiot.
That was not an accusation.
You asked why the NR should expect another war.
I pointed out they've had nothing but war for their entire time in power. Gee I wonder why they should think they should be prepared?

Wait a second... did you just say that you have not been making accusations towards the NR? Really?
As for being prepared, they for the most part have been. Their problem is intelligence... knowing what is coming and more importantly, when. For the most part, once they go into action the NR is a dominant force. What Fanboy is saying is that they have no control over the people that are conspiring to make war on them. And if you want to talk about being prepared... take a look at the US. For 50 years we were prepared for an all out war with the WARSAW Pact, but then uh oh! Terrorists! and it takes a while to completely overhaul your military and way of thinking to be prepared for a completely different kind of war. Now apply that to a galactic scale an reverse it. The NR basically was dealing with small wars, what we would call police actions, and had a military and a mindset to do so, then INVASION! They, on the fly had to go from fight one type of war, to fighting a completely different type. Not only did they do so, but they emerged victorious.

Yeah and that's the only reason they lost. It's not as if the Vong were adapting their tactics, bringing in multiple yammosks, and committing so many of their forces to the taking of Coruscant that they used up a lot of their military might getting there...

So all tactical and political incompetence is to be ignored then?

You ignore it for the Empire CONSISTENTLY. What's good for the goose... That isn't quite the point however. You continually claim 'criminal negligence/incompetence'. More so, you claim it to the point that the NR is WORSE than the Empire because of it. You have yet to back up that claim up.

No you fucking prick, because just because the Vong are extragalactic invaders with a different agenda than the Empire, DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THE EMPIRE LOST CORUSCANT. Twice actually as another poster has just brought up.

How does someone manage to be so stupid and still literate enough to use a keyboard?
That they're another faction is irrelevant.
That they're extragalactic invaders is irrelevant.
The fact that they almost DESTROYED CORUSCANT is the problem! Previous invasions would cause collateral damage, sure. The Vong intended to, and I have to repeat this again, replace the entire planetary infrastructure with their own shit and kill EVERYONE who didn't evacuate.

The fact that the Vong attempted to terraform Coruscant so they could live there is what is irrelevant. The NR could have decimated the cityscape of the planet ANY time they wanted, IF THEY WANTED TO, they just happen to like the way it was. The POINT is the the Rebellion/NR gained control of the planet from the Empire, twice. When any faction is in control of it they can do what they want with it. Palpatine could have painted it purple and pink and but ribbons on every building if he wanted to.

Darth Yan wrote:Seriously. Why the hell do so many people support the galactic empire? Going on the films alone they were pretty damn evil (blowing up aldeeran despite having less destructive methods and despite the fact that many people on the planet weren't spies, thus showing that they didn't give a shit about their civillians, and doing it purely to show off the death star's power), murdering the jawas for shits and giggles, and murdering owen and beru despite the fact that they probably had no clue about the droids being fugitives. Yet there are still twats on every star wars forum who support them, and the weekly standard actually wanked it twice. And there are several apologist websites. What gives?

Well, because they were "cool". And being evil is a part of that coolness that they had.

Of course, nobody really wish that their country had an government like the Empire.

TC Pilot wrote:I gotta admit, it's pretty hilarious that the OP's complaining about this on a website called Stardestroyer.net, with a front-page banner that goes "This website is dedicated [sic] the most majestic starship in science fiction: The Imperial Star Destroyer" and a section entitled "I want YOU for the Galactic Empire."

Oh for fucks sake... the front page is obviously meant to be taken as humorous parody of propaganda. And FUCKING AGAIN no one is asking why people think the Empire is COOL. We all get that. The question is: 'why do people make excuses for the atrocities the Empire has perpetrated on the galaxy?'.

The short answer is, the Empire is cool and the Rebels are all lame.

Congratulations dillweed. You just answered a question that no one asked, and if they had, everyone already knows the answer to.

The long answer has, in short, already been repeated about a billion times over all over the place.

Actually, no it hasn't. 'Why are there so many Imperial apologists?'

Iosef Cross wrote:

Darth Yan wrote:Seriously. Why the hell do so many people support the galactic empire? Going on the films alone they were pretty damn evil (blowing up aldeeran despite having less destructive methods and despite the fact that many people on the planet weren't spies, thus showing that they didn't give a shit about their civillians, and doing it purely to show off the death star's power), murdering the jawas for shits and giggles, and murdering owen and beru despite the fact that they probably had no clue about the droids being fugitives. Yet there are still twats on every star wars forum who support them, and the weekly standard actually wanked it twice. And there are several apologist websites. What gives?

Well, because they were "cool". And being evil is a part of that coolness that they had.

Of course, nobody really wish that their country had an government like the Empire.

Holy fucking shit... Not only is it in BIG YELLOW LETTERS IN THE FORUM, but it is on top of every post and again in BIG YELLOW LETTERS on the reply page.

IT IS NOT :"WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE THE EMPIRE?" IT IS:"WHY DO PEOPLE DEFEND THEIR OBVIOUSLY EVIL FUCKING ACTIONS?"

Fuck, you people are goddamn stupid.