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Uraniun235 wrote:I guess the real question is, why is TMP considered a financial failure if Generations isn't?

There I can't help you because TMP also made a lot of money on opening day.

The coda is not visible on youtube due to Sony Entertainment. Maybe Chuck can re-upload it for those of us in Europe with other music?

Honestly, I would rather have not had Kirk or any TOS characters in the movie. I've been thinking about how to better rewrite Kirk's death, but it all keeps coming out as cheesy Internet fanfic. Maybe if he had lead a heroic last ditch effort commanding the stardrive section while the rest of the crew escaped in the saucer from a much more formidable enemy than the Booby Sisters? That way the Ent-D wouldve had a better death as well.

All in all, I'll put myself in what is probably the minority and say that Kirk's death shouldve been one of things that can never be done satisfactorily on screen, and that with proper writing(I know, the shitacular B&B and the overrated Moore) the TNG cast didn't need any help for their first movie.

I've always prefered to think of Kirk dying in bed* by the hand of an outraged husband.

*Not his own of course.

Skylon wrote:

Big Orange wrote: Perhaps that and above all Captain Kirk HAVING HIS SON BACK, you know the son who was neglected while a boy and once Kirk finally patched things up with his son Marcus many years later, Marcus was then abrubtly murdered?!

They'd have to do a recast (maybe have Kirk raising a Nexus fantasy, younger version of him) as the actor who played David had died by the time of Generations.

Yes, but it would make a lot more sense than mostly what we got except with those horses (fits into action-adventure and Shatner has a ranch). But most of this movie still feels quite anti-climatic what with six movies and seven TV seasons invested quite heavily into Generations, but on the other hand TOS and TNG had their stories tied up pretty well with The Undiscovered Country and "All Good Things" respectively, so Generations is mostly superfluous (like Soran, even if he strived to be a sympathetic, complex villain with a strong motivation). And I also felt the 45 minute long "Parallels" from the uneven Season Seven felt more epic and was more memorable than the 118 minute long Generations (exploding suns, wibbly-wobbly lights and all).

The Klingon stock footage and the Duras Sisters was pretty underwhelming, especially after the earlier charistmatic and intimidating Klingon badguys we had played by Lloyd and Plummer. It would've been better if we had the Romulan Star Empire as the bad guys instead, a more regimented and efficient fighting force that sees a shot at complete Galactic domination with Soran's torpedoes and are willing to risk open invasion of UFP space, and the Enterprise-D gets shot down by a flotilla of Bird of Prey instead.

CaptJodan wrote: I somehow never noticed the uniform thing Chuck mentioned, but now that he mentioned it, I fear I'll never be able to look at this movie again without noticing it. It's a new offense to a movie that really didn't need any more offenses added to it. There's not really a justifiable in-universe explanation. It's not as if the Enterprise would have a problem REPLICATING the new uniform style if their shipment of new uniforms was left wanting.

The uniform thing was ridiculous I just rationalized it as a lax uniform change policy and an inability to replicate the uniforms for security purposes. Bit of a stretch, but its something

Though Riker should of stayed in his 'old cut' uniform for the entire movie, the Quartermaster must've run out of 'new cut' jackets in his size. (Seriously it should've been obvious to the costuming department that Brook's costume didn't fit Frakes properly)

They should have made Soran into a revenge driven scientist.

Everything he cared about was taken away by the Borg and now he lives or even works for the Federation
Anti-Borg Department. He learns about Picards chance to cripple the Borg with Hugh and becomes furious.
He decides to put Picard in the same position he himself is in.
He orders Picards family killed in a horrible way.
He conspires with the Romulans who are interested in Sorans Sunkiller both as an anti-borg weapon and as a weapon against the federation.

You could even keep the Nexus to get Kirk aboard the E-D and have him take a last stand against a small fleet of D'deridex...
with obsolete knowledge and tactics but keeping them away from teh saucer section.
And his last words to Picard: "Make sure they built another En...[full name Enterprise cut of by death of the E-D]"

I disagree. We've already had a villain driven by the lust for revenge, and his name was Khan. I really don't see that story being done much better with the TNG crew.

Every time I think about how to rewrite Generation, I run into a wall somewhere. I don't know if that script can be salvaged. If I were given the project, I'd probably blow everything up and start all over again.

Have to say, having Kirk die on he bridge of the Enterprise like that would be one of the few ways that would actually do the character justice, died how he lived after all, on the Bridge of the Enterprise.

RedImperator wrote:Every time I think about how to rewrite Generation, I run into a wall somewhere. I don't know if that script can be salvaged. If I were given the project, I'd probably blow everything up and start all over again.

There isn't much hope. The very core idea of the film, Picard teaming up with Kirk to fight a bad guy, sounds like a fanfiction. Then every other idea tacked on only works to drag the film further down, until you wind up with three middle aged men kicking each other in the middle of Utah.

OmegaChief wrote:Have to say, having Kirk die on he bridge of the Enterprise like that would be one of the few ways that would actually do the character justice, died how he lived after all, on the Bridge of the Enterprise.

Honestly, most "deaths" for Kirk seem contrived and lame. I guess I could handle his death on the bridge of the Enterprise...or going down swinging against twenty Klingons. Fuck, I may have even been able to stand it if Kirk took a disruptor round meant for Picard (not just shot in the back).

I suppose if you wanted to make the film a "transition" between TOS and TNG you could have the Ent-A while on the way back from Khitomer encounter the Nexus, save Soran and Guinan, then continue on their way to be retired. Still, look at that. It becomes nothing more than fan-service using the TOS crew and you could insert the USS Who The Fuck Cares led by Captain Smith and have them do it just as easily. The hard part is making the TOS crew, or Kirk alone, integral to the plot. Moore and Braga kinda came up with something, by having Picard need Kirk's help to stop Soran however, the end result of a totally shit death and that it made Picard appear less than heroic negates that.

I was surprised that Chuck didn't comment on how the film also totally failed at its theme of time and loss. Whereas ST 2 and 3 saddled the characters with loss, there felt like more of a point, and indeed they dealt with those losses as those adventures ended with a new sense of hope. In ST 2, yes Spock was gone but Kirk had rediscovered his youth, and was able to look forward to what awaited in the rest of his life. In ST 3, yes Kirk lost David and the Enterprise, but saved Spock. In all three cases also, Spock, the Enterprise and David all die heroically. In Generations death, be it if Picard's family, Kirk or the Ent-D is random and pointless and we get some limp ass line at the end about "what we leave behind is not as important as how we lived" and the only hope is that there would be another starship Enterprise...oh, and that all robots will find their pet cats.

On an unrelated note, I'd read somewhere that Deforest Kelly wasn't opposed to appearing in the film, but due to his failing health the studio wouldn't provide any insurance if something went wrong on set. Or something along those lines.

I see one of the worst part that people agree upon is why the need of the transition? With the past seven seasons, you had the small bits with Spock, McCoy and Scotty giving their blessings to the crew of the ENT-D. We didn't need a film to have Kirk give Picard's head a rub and go "Attaboy!" to say nothing of the rest of the material. Most agree that TNG stood on their own, and Generations should have been a movie that was about a TNG struggle, not a bizarre TOS/TNG fanfic with no clear reason for being.

Ghost Rider wrote:Most agree that TNG stood on their own, and Generations should have been a movie that was about a TNG struggle, not a bizarre TOS/TNG fanfic with no clear reason for being.

Yes. TOS characters were just pure fanservice. If you had to have them somewhere, they should have been given real cameo roles in the original meaning of the word (i.e. non-speaking appearances), perhaps an old news clip, photograph or something to that effect. The UNC was a quite suitable end to the adventures of TOS cast and nothing more was needed. Then just write a pure TNG script from scratch, hopefully with no Nexus or other time-related bullshit.

I'd forgotten how truly awful this movie was.
Fortunately I saw it on the open air cinema at the 1995 Glastonbury festival so I was able to anesthetise my brain enough to sit through the whole thing without suffering an aneurism.
In the intervening decade and a half I have never been able to watch more than about ten-fifteen minutes at a time.
This live action fanfic does truly suck hairy donkey ballsacks.

Marcus Aurelius wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Most agree that TNG stood on their own, and Generations should have been a movie that was about a TNG struggle, not a bizarre TOS/TNG fanfic with no clear reason for being.

Yes. TOS characters were just pure fanservice. If you had to have them somewhere, they should have been given real cameo roles in the original meaning of the word (i.e. non-speaking appearances), perhaps an old news clip, photograph or something to that effect. The UNC was a quite suitable end to the adventures of TOS cast and nothing more was needed. Then just write a pure TNG script from scratch, hopefully with no Nexus or other time-related bullshit.

It is not as if their plot contribution is even necessary. You do not need Kirk at all for this movie. You do not need to give Picard a sidekick - at all. Heck, the whole Enterprise B subplot could have been scrapped and it would not hurt the movie one bit. They wasted precious story time with that.

You could have the ship scenes as the first shot of Generations and then just go from there.

IMO, if you manage to ignore all the squandered potential that immediately becomes apparent, it's a passable film, but a lot of it comes off as if the budget department was headed by Ebeneezer Scrooge. I mean, that's the final showdown of the E-D? That's Kirk's last stand? Was it just lack of vision, or penny-pinching?

I guess I'm happy I'm not the only one who thought that integrating Kirk any which way would result in warmed over Internet fanfic

I always got a kick out of the Christmas scenes in the nexus. They are just...so bizarre, so surreal, so unusual for a Trek movie.

Its always upset me that the TNG cast was saddled with shitty writers for their movies. None of their movies really hold up well to the test of time (not that they were that great when they came out).

Srelex wrote:IMO, if you manage to ignore all the squandered potential that immediately becomes apparent, it's a passable film, but a lot of it comes off as if the budget department was headed by Ebeneezer Scrooge. I mean, that's the final showdown of the E-D? That's Kirk's last stand? Was it just lack of vision, or penny-pinching?

I think it was a bit of both. Bregga and Moore couldn't change their mind frame and realize that "Hey, movies are different from television", and so the whole thing can't get that big screen feel. But on the other hand it's dealing with a budget that would make most producers laugh.

Srelex wrote:IMO, if you manage to ignore all the squandered potential that immediately becomes apparent, it's a passable film, but a lot of it comes off as if the budget department was headed by Ebeneezer Scrooge. I mean, that's the final showdown of the E-D? That's Kirk's last stand? Was it just lack of vision, or penny-pinching?

With the Ent-D I don't buy it. The battle scene and crash visually look good. I'll go out on a limb and say its possible a Bird of Prey and not a Vor'cha-class ship wasn't used because maybe the later model, built for a TV show, wouldn't hold up on the big screen (ILM re-worked the Ent-D model extensively so it would stand up to feature film scrutiny for Generations). The problem with the Ent-D's last battle is that technobabble is what needs to be called upon to save the day, and that exists to give the movie its "COOL EFFECTS SCENE!" with the saucer crash.

Kirk's death just failed. With the original ending Moore said he wanted an ironic demise for Kirk (citing John Wayne's death at the end of "Sands of Iwo Jima" as inspiration)...he'd accomplished so much and he just gets shot in the back. This is okay for a one shot movie character, not a character who was the subject of a TV show and multiple films over the course of nearly 30 years at that point. The death that made the film was stuck in a corner due to what was shot already. They had limited time and money to correct their fuck-up, so they came up with what stands.

So, on both counts I honestly blame the writers.

Generations is underwhelming and had good ingredients that mostly did not brew that well, but at least Captain Picard was much more like the Picard from TNG unlike the Captain Picard he became in the last two even lamer TNG movies where he became a balding male Ripley, with First Contact - ironically the only TNG movie that didn't really suck out loud - being the instigator (although at least Picard in that movie had more motivation for doing a McClane, not so in the later less successful TNG films).

Do you think Captain Picard, who was senatorial and got easily slapped about in Generations but then progressively compromised his established character by going almost in the opposite direction as a mediocre action hero, a primary reason why TNG's movies just never worked as well as TOS' movie spin-off did as light hearted action-adventure?

Big Orange wrote: Do you think Captain Picard, who was senatorial and got easily slapped about in Generations but then progressively compromised his established character by going almost in the opposite direction as a mediocre action hero, a primary reason why TNG's movies just never worked as well as TOS' movie spin-off did as light hearted action-adventure?

I think that it wasn't a cause, but rather a symptom of the bad writing and producing of those movies. It speaks to the utter lack of imagination at Paramount that they could not think of anything better for Captain Picard to do than to tote a phaser rifle around the whole time.

Big Orange wrote:Generations is underwhelming and had good ingredients that mostly did not brew that well, but at least Captain Picard was much more like the Picard from TNG unlike the Captain Picard he became in the last two even lamer TNG movies where he became a balding male Ripley, with First Contact - ironically the only TNG movie that didn't really suck out loud - being the instigator (although at least Picard in that movie had more motivation for doing a McClane, not so in the later less successful TNG films).

In First Contact his role as "male Ripley" made sense...with his experience with the Borg, it's not a surprise to say he'd take a personal interest and want to blast the shit out of them himself.

That said, you're right, Picard acts like TNG Picard in this film. I always liked to think the change to a more active "I'm leading the landing party" Picard in the later TNG films was because of his interaction with Kirk in this film.

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Yes. TOS characters were just pure fanservice. If you had to have them somewhere, they should have been given real cameo roles in the original meaning of the word (i.e. non-speaking appearances), perhaps an old news clip, photograph or something to that effect. The UNC was a quite suitable end to the adventures of TOS cast and nothing more was needed. Then just write a pure TNG script from scratch, hopefully with no Nexus or other time-related bullshit.

On that note, an idea came to me that the TNG crew could have to deal with something that Kirk and company was previously involved with, and for the cameo you could have the TNG crew reviewing some old starship logs or other reports Kirk and possibly others from the crew made in order to bring the TNG crew up to speed on what they're facing.

But really, they should have just came up with some new ideas for a movie story arc.

I'd preferred that Kirk not died but was reunited with Spock at the end and they go off doing whatever.

The destruction of the E-D served no purpose other than for Paramount to bring out another Enterprise. If they were going to destroy the E-D, either do it through a balls to the wall shootout in which despite winning the ship sustained heavy damage and needed to separate the saucer from the stardrive or an act of sabotage that threatens to destroy the ship yet the majority are saved by separating the saucer. Anything other than being sucker punched by an obsolete ship.