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Swindle1984 wrote:The nictating membrane is interesting, but why would they look like compound eyes?

Perhaps the membrane is a mesh? It would partially block out light while still allowing for visibility, sorta like veils or whatnot.

Another explanation could be that the Gorn didn't have sweat glands, and seemed sluggish because it was afraid of heatstroke. They seemed to be fighting in a dry wasteland, after all. It's not a very good explanation, granted.

Not sure what-level-canon this counts as, but in Star Trek Online the "compound eyes" are protective goggles; Gorn are a playable race, and can be set up with or without them.

I'd say Worf should probably win if he's given something like a knife - isn't he supposed to be more-than-competent with melee weapons? If he's that much faster than the Gorn, I could see him getting behind and giving a nice quick stab to a vulnerable-looking spot, then retreating before the opponent could react.

Patrick Degan wrote:
Picard could not even make fire ("Darmok"). What makes you think he could improvise a mortar out of native materials?

I concede. I'd totally forgotten about that. I was thinking about Picard in "Starship Mine" (the Die Hard in space episode).

Darth Yoshi wrote:

Swindle1984 wrote:The nictating membrane is interesting, but why would they look like compound eyes?

Perhaps the membrane is a mesh? It would partially block out light while still allowing for visibility, sorta like veils or whatnot.

Another explanation could be that the Gorn didn't have sweat glands, and seemed sluggish because it was afraid of heatstroke. They seemed to be fighting in a dry wasteland, after all. It's not a very good explanation, granted.

Since Gorn are explicitly stated to be reptilian, the lack of sweat glands is a moot point. In fact, if the planet was hot, he should have been rather comfortable compared to sweaty, overheated Kirk.

Which again brings up the Gorn's slow movements; a reptile in warm conditions would be quite active. The Gorn's movements are more akin to a reptile in cool conditions, which it obviously was not encountering in that scenario. And considering that, again, we have info that they're not really any slower or less agile than humans under normal conditions, and that any creature that normally moved that slowly would be set up for failure by evolution (as far as sentient beings and carnivores go; things like sloths get away with it.), there has to be another in-universe explanation for its slow movements. Again, this combined with the hissing/slurping noises, I think it must be winded and struggling for breath during the entire fight.

Do we actually know that it was hot? it could have been 55 degrees for all we know.

I don't think Worf would necessarily go down like a COMPLETE bitch. he made a force field out of his communicator and he made himself a nice little spear in Birthright. He's used to hunting Targ and other allegedly dangerous Klingon animals.

The hide on the Gorn is a huge problem though, Worf can make all the javelins and spears he wants but if he can't penetrate the hide he's pretty screwed.

Worf would survive a few seconds longer in hand to hand, Kirk was being crushed against the Gorn's chest, but managed to break free by clapping the ear holes. I would guess that the Gorn while incredibly strong, somehow evolved with some major weaknesses in range of motion. Kirk was keeping its mouth away from him with one hand and now leverage, he was restrained in a position in which the gorn should have pulverized him, maybe its embrace is like an alligators bite in reverse. incredibly strong one direction, not so much the other way around?

In that case the knife, plus Worf's bone head might finally be useful for a change.

The terrain is no good for like a pit trap or net, and obviously Kirk couldn't pull off an avalanche so why would Worf. That's why I come back to thinking if Worf can duplicate Kirk's solution its the only way to predict a win, because nothing else would seem effective against a Gorn.

Even with the possibilities ahead I'm not voting for Worf here, he'd make a decent show of it, but he doesn't get any modifiers for the ripped shirt.

I really doubt Kirk was breaking a sweat in 55 degree weather before he even engaged in combat against the Gorn. Watch the video again, you can see sweat on his face.

This is Pure Star Trek.

Swindle1984 wrote:And considering that, again, we have info that they're not really any slower or less agile than humans under normal conditions, and that any creature that normally moved that slowly would be set up for failure by evolution (as far as sentient beings and carnivores go; things like sloths get away with it.), there has to be another in-universe explanation for its slow movements.

It could be that the opposite is true: it's native to a world with low oxygen. Low oxygen might mean generally slower critters period as there's less energy available for metabolism. It might have been having breathing problems because the air was too thick then (for one thing thicker air is just more mass to push in and out of your lungs, and humans in too thick air could be vulnerable to nitrogen narcosis, oxygen toxicity, and carbon dioxide toxicity).

Then again the one in Enterprise was faster so if we include that in the analysis that theory doesn't hold up very well.

Could be the Gorn was just taking his time, cause he didn't consider Kirk a threat.

Solauren wrote:Could be the Gorn was just taking his time, cause he didn't consider Kirk a threat.

Right, so even though he tried to bite Kirk in the neck and hurled a boulder at him, he took his sweet time by throwing swings at Kirk so slow that Stephen Hawking could have avoided them. There's a difference between taking your time and making almost no effort to actually hit someone while allowing them to hit you repeatedly.

Klingons are generally tougher, but some humans like Riker have kicked their asses on occasion. And I can't think of any specific examples, but I'm sure Kirk must have kicked some Klingon ass at some point too (although I remember Doc Brown/Klingon handing him his ass pretty easily in one of the movies).

All I know is that Kirk is a pretty good fighter, and he couldn't even manage to make the Gorn flinch until he kind of stunned him by smacking his ears. I think that silly looking "Toon Town" looking Gorn from Enterprise got the upper hand on Archer (another decent fighter) pretty easily too, so I'm going with the Gorn (and I can't remember that scene very well, but wasn't that particular Gorn much faster too?). Anyway, I don't think bare fists or even a melee weapon would be enough for Worf to take it.

Superman wrote:Klingons are generally tougher, but some humans like Riker have kicked their asses on occasion. And I can't think of any specific examples, but I'm sure Kirk must have kicked some Klingon ass at some point too (although I remember Doc Brown/Klingon handing him his ass pretty easily in one of the movies).

I think Riker kicked Klingon ass once, but Sisko seemed to make it a hobby, along with Cardassians, Jem H'Dar, ect.

Superman wrote:All I know is that Kirk is a pretty good fighter, and he couldn't even manage to make the Gorn flinch. I think that silly looking Toon Town version from Enterprise got the upper hand on Archer (another decent fighter) pretty easily too, so I'm going with the Gorn. It may have been slow, but I don't think bare fists or even a melee weapon would be enough for Worf to take it.

Wait, Archer a decent fighter. I think Chuck has documented pretty well how often Archer gets his ass handed to him. Come to think of it, that's probably Archer's hobby.

Temujin wrote:I think Riker kicked Klingon ass once, but Sisko seemed to make it a hobby, along with Cardassians, Jem H'Dar, ect.

True. And let's not forget how he once got the upper hand on Q by punching him square in the face. Q was even shocked by it, although it was probably purely for comedic effect.

Superman wrote:Wait, Archer a decent fighter. I think Chuck has documented pretty well how often Archer gets his ass handed to him. Come to think of it, that's probably Archer's hobby.

Ah yeah, you're probably right. I guess he just tried to come off like a badass. I was probably thinking of all the silly Kirk comparisons that were being made at the time. I didn't watch much of Enterprise, but I'm pretty sure I remember that particular Gorn being able to move pretty quickly.

Superman wrote:

Superman wrote:Wait, Archer a decent fighter. I think Chuck has documented pretty well how often Archer gets his ass handed to him. Come to think of it, that's probably Archer's hobby.

Ah yeah, you're probably right. I guess he just tried to come off like a badass. I was probably thinking of all the silly Kirk comparisons that were being made at the time. I didn't watch much of Enterprise, but I'm pretty sure I remember that particular Gorn being able to move pretty quickly.

The Gorn does more quickly, but really comes off as a cartoon Raptor. And in that episode Archer is dressed like Kirk, but comes across more as an anti-Kirk. He actually the fight with the help of a MACO, T'Pol and the environmental controls; and still got his ass kicked. Though he does get points for actually doing something intelligent (using the variable gravity), which to my mind has only been seen in Andromeda.

Memory Alpha wrote:He and the remaining MACO near the Gorn's location, silently searching a corridor that is strewn both with exposed internals of the ship and with the bodies of several deceased officers. Without noticing Slar, Archer passes directly beneath the Gorn. He gives the MACO an all-clear signal, moments before Slar plummets down on Archer, causing him to drop his phaser. As he and the MACO assault the Gorn, it scratches Archer's torso before turning its ferocious attention on the MACO, who Slar picks up and slams into a bulkhead. The Gorn approaches Archer as he quickly contacts T'Pol, instructing her to lower a certain section of the gravity plating. Her doing so drags the Gorn to the deck. Joined by two MACOs from a nearby turbolift, Archer repeatedly shoots the Gorn, killing Slar.

On a related note, I too once had to fight a Gorn. It happened a few years ago. He started it.



And it's not one of those wussy looking CGI Gorns from Enterprise either.

He's got a board! With a nail in it!!

Swindle1984 wrote:I really doubt Kirk was breaking a sweat in 55 degree weather before he even engaged in combat against the Gorn. Watch the video again, you can see sweat on his face.

Thats not really conclusive. The man is wearing a long sleeve shirt and its a bright sunny day, you can absolutely break a sweat in 55 degrees. that is not conclusive evidence, There could have been side effects of the transport, the air could have been thinner, as has already been postulated, heck he could have been panicking because he just got teleported off his ship.

Coolish weather and thin atmosphere accounts for a lot of what we saw.

Themightytom wrote:He's got a board! With a nail in it!!

Never underestimate a board with a rusty nail! As if having the crap bludgeoned out of you isn't bad enough, you could have to get a tetanus shot too. Those really sting.

Very interesting points regarding the atmospheric composition with regards to its speed and general behavior.

Molyneux, you bring up a good point regarding SFX. I am just uncertain of how certain issues should be approached in this specific case. I have no problem with the rock scene, mainly because we understand physics well enough that a rock of a given size and composition under particular conditions will always have the same weight. Shroom hit the nail on the head though, the whole episode is pretty much Kirk vs Dinosaur in its intent. That is where I am a little uncomfortable going with purely what we see in this case. We know what the authors intent was, and we also know that it was based on incorrect knowledge with what we now know. It stands to reason that what we got if the episode was made today with better scientific understanding would be possibly quite different from the actual episode. That said I am not a fan of the Space Raptor from ENT. This is why am kinda torn on authors intent when examining a particular work of fiction. I much prefer to go by visible evidence, though I am not certain we can completely ignore what the author was intending. I suppose this is why I actually like the atmospheric composition explanation. It allows us to have a rational explanation for what we observe, while still dealing with the issues of believability (ie such a large creature somehow surviving the game of evolution despite be so slow, all while probably being predatory), without having to worry about author's intent entering into the discussion at all.

Destructionator XIII wrote:Just to defend Worf in general: he isn't a stupid man. He is apparently an expert in starship weapons and shield systems (Geordi is always happy to have his assistance in those fields), and is presumably a full graduate of Starfleet Academy, which includes a lot of general knowledge, including introductory chemistry.

On the away teams or in conference rooms, Worf might not be on Data's level, but he never comes off as an idiot, bringing up decent candidate solutions and generally contributing to the team. He has a temper, and Q taunts him for it, but he has a brain too.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if he duplicated Kirk's performance, remembering his academy chemistry classes, and going right down to sparing the Gorn at the end - he's done that a few times too, and has, again, the same Starfleet training as the rest of the crew (probably more, considering he is security - the ship cops - and usually would want people alive). Though, he's finished opponents off quite a few times too, so that's not as much of a sure thing.

I think in that case Worf would spare the Gorn, as it's the "honorable" thing to do. When Worf killed Duras, it was out of revenge and he was in a rage. Other times it was in the heat of combat. If Worf has time to stop and think about it, I don't think he would finish the Gorn as this is not a personal fight.

Remember also the conditions of combat were set up by the Metrons to accomodate both the Gorn and the Human. I see no reason why the Metron wouldn't make the same accomodation for Worf and provide him the elements needed to construct weapons more familiar to his Klingon heritage.

If Kirk could pull it off with only the knowledge of basic sulfur+coal+ diamond-like-sharpies and his level of strength+stamina, then I'm quite certain Worf could.


Though, of course, with a Gorn incapable of ever initiating an attack (too slow, always out of range) I find it hard to say that anyone but a real screwup could *lose*.

Swindle1984 wrote:As for the Gorn fight... If the Gorn was able to easily lift that boulder (it didn't seem to exert much effort) and then hurl it, whereas Kirk had to heft his much smaller rock and mostly depended on gravity to get it to the Gorn, he should have been able to easily crush Kirk when he had him in that bearhug. The fact that he didn't must be for a reason; perhaps the way their skeleton is arranged, Gorn can't squeeze things against their chests very well?

How much do we actually know about the Gorn, anyway?

There are strict physiological limits to the size crocodiles and alligators can grow due to their method of locomotion. Rather than having their joints such that the limb is effectively a straight-line to the ground (even a 'dog-leg' requires comparatively little energy to remain standing), crocodilians appear to be doing pushups! This is why they tend to slide and skitter across the mud when chasing you and likely a result of having evolved for swimming rather than running.

I just went outside to check out one of the frillneck lizards so common around here, and when on all four legs, the front two do appear to have the 'elbows' sticking out rather than locked in a straight line. Of course, these little buggers go to two legs when they want speed

Warning - Mostly tongue in cheek

I always thought the Gorn were dinosauroids (or whatever). As a result the Gorn in TOS fit the 1960's popular perception of dino's. Big, slow, powerful and dumb (but not so dumb they cant suss warp travel). Added to that it was a guy in a rubber suit, that's never graceful.

Anyways, if this were a TNG episode Worf goes down as the Gorn makes Worf his bitch. Picard then talks everybody into a state where they let everybody go just so he'll shut up.

If this were DS9 then after a loooong, epic battle with flashbacks and maybe a dream sequence Worf fianally kills the Gorn. Sisko then monologues on the futility of it all, why cant we just be friends etc until the Metroids give up and leave.

If there are no guys with cameras arround I give it to Worf. He's a trained security dude and presumably has taken 'Beating the ever loving crap out of aliens bigger than you 304' while the Gorn, while big still had most of his training based around 'Keeping larger crew members from eating the smaller ones 512' and other captainy stuff. Besides Worf will get to unleash his frustrations at having been beaten up so often just to estabish the alien of the week as a threat.