StarDestroyer.Net BBS

It implies that he was too independent. He probably had some ideas about what the Jedi should be that others weren't happy about.

neoolong wrote:

vakundok wrote:Personally I think Lucas made a mistake with the full separation of the jedis from family life.

I think a less than one year old child canot show any sign of being force-sensitive. So it seems that jedis regularly pop up somewhere in the Republic and take away a child saying that the baby is force sensitive. I can imagine only a very few mothers allowing that. I think most mothers would attack the jedi immediately. Besides since the force sensitivity seems to be hereditary the jedis cut their own recruitment not allowing strong emotions and family.

Except a source that I have quoted shows that they can detect them as infants.

And force sensitivity is not just hereditary. If it was then you would just have to keep track of families that have a history of producing force-sensitive children. It may be biological, that doesn't mean hereditary.

I mean show to the family not to the jedis. I think it is the same as in Harry Potter. The force sensitivity can pop up (as a mutation), run in a family and fade away. "The force is very strong in your family"-Yoda. Doesn' it mean hereditary?

The Jedi Order seems to be more and more similar to the Psi Corp. And it is not good. They (the jedis) were previously thought to be the good guys but now they seem to be merciless, emotionless and not so good.

The Psi Corp served an important purpose. It was highly corrupt due to the part it played in the story. However, its function was necessary.

And the Jedi are still the "good guys," they are only less one-dimensional now. Yoda explicitly stated they were getting arrogant. They are not some archetype of the typical good guy. They weren't even that way in the OT when you learn Vader was a Jedi and later when we see how Luke is willing to act as a Jedi.


It seems you are trying to show what is wrong with the Jedi Order in terms of what you want them to be, not what is actually wrong with how they act given their options.

The Psi Corp hunted the free psi individuals and forced them to join. Taking away a baby from the family because he or she can become a danger in the unseen future (since not even the jedis can see the future exactly) is an extremely evil thing. Judgement far before a possible crime.

neoolong wrote:It implies that he was too independent. He probably had some ideas about what the Jedi should be that others weren't happy about.

That doesn't explain why they cut him loose. They know what kind of power a Jedi Knight has at his disposal, and they basically set him free to use that power at his own discretion. That seems extremely negligent to me. They obviously have unjustified faith in their training system, but even in such a setting, just letting Dooku go do whatever he pleases seems more than a little naive.

In many respects, induction into the Jedi Order appears purposely similar to entering a Buddhist monastery or, to a lesser extent, a Christian monastery. It's not exactly an original observation, but it bears some closer consideration.

In the past, orphans and children of the poor were often taken into Christian monasteries as oblates, and this is still a fairly common practice in Buddhist monasteries. Soviet regiments after WW2, and some modern Russian regiments nowadays, maintained a similar system, initially to take care of war orphans. These sons of the regiment were, from an early age, raised as military cadets and soldiers-in-training on a 24/7 basis, and then often continued on to military careers once they came of age.

Having her child become one of the famous and noble Jedi knights, protectors of the weak, arbiters of justice, bringers of peace, smiters of evil, and all around Good Folks (tm) should be the ultimate dream of mothers throughout the galaxy. A nice parallel would be the stereotypical Catholic mother's dream that one of her boys will enter the priesthood.

Another thing to consider is that the chance of any particular person in the Old Republic being born sufficiently powerful in the Force to be a candidate for Jedi training has to be so remote as to be effectively nonexistent. It has to be something like billions, even trillions, to one. Thus, public anxiety about losing a child to the Jedi Order should be on a par with worrying that the child will be eaten by a giant space slug with really tasteless tattoos.

As a further thing to consider, the Jedi Order obviously has very deep pockets. It would not be inconceivable for the Order to have a trust fund program for the parents of force-sensitive children within the Republic. Essentially, having a force-sensitive child and giving it up to be raised as a Jedi might leave the rest of the family set for life. A system that allows humans by the hundreds of thousands to be engineered, bred and raised for the sole purpose of being organic war machines should not have a huge problem with such a system. Jedi are strategic assets of the state and one might even make a case for something along the lines of eminent domain.

Add in many generations of tradition and the definite mystique of the Jedia and parents would find it difficult, even impossible, not to give their children into the care of the Jedi Order.

Ted C wrote:

neoolong wrote:It implies that he was too independent. He probably had some ideas about what the Jedi should be that others weren't happy about.

That doesn't explain why they cut him loose. They know what kind of power a Jedi Knight has at his disposal, and they basically set him free to use that power at his own discretion. That seems extremely negligent to me. They obviously have unjustified faith in their training system, but even in such a setting, just letting Dooku go do whatever he pleases seems more than a little naive.

I think they did not believe that a previous jedi could change so dramatically.

Ted C wrote:

neoolong wrote:It implies that he was too independent. He probably had some ideas about what the Jedi should be that others weren't happy about.

That doesn't explain why they cut him loose. They know what kind of power a Jedi Knight has at his disposal, and they basically set him free to use that power at his own discretion. That seems extremely negligent to me. They obviously have unjustified faith in their training system, but even in such a setting, just letting Dooku go do whatever he pleases seems more than a little naive.

Ultimately, it appears that being a member of the Jedi Order is a case of the apprentice becoming a legal ward of the Order. Once the ward achieves majority, leaving the order or staying is a personal decision. For a human, nearly two decades of conditioning and training would make it almost impossible to even consider leaving the order. That same conditioning is, even by senior Jedi, blithely considered to be near-absolute protection against the incredibly rare ex-Jedi turning into a bad seed.

Considering the fact that those who left the order are in fact commemorated, with busts and all, it seems likely that those who left the Order mostly became rather important forces for good in the galaxy. Dooku might have been one of the first acknowledged bad seeds of the Order.

Patrick Ogaard wrote:Having her child become one of the famous and noble Jedi knights, protectors of the weak, arbiters of justice, bringers of peace, smiters of evil, and all around Good Folks (tm) should be the ultimate dream of mothers throughout the galaxy.

You forgot about the probability of dying during the jedi trial ... Excuse me but it sounds stupid to me, so I asked my mother. She said she could imagine only a very few mother extremely deep in misery doing this. And not even slaves were in misery.

A nice parallel would be the stereotypical Catholic mother's dream that one of her boys will enter the priesthood.

Parallel? Do you mean "will enter" and "is taken away to join" are parallel or even similar?

Another thing to consider is that the chance of any particular person in the Old Republic being born sufficiently powerful in the Force to be a candidate for Jedi training has to be so remote as to be effectively nonexistent. It has to be something like billions, even trillions, to one. Thus, public anxiety about losing a child to the Jedi Order should be on a par with worrying that the child will be eaten by a giant space slug with really tasteless tattoos.

What about the family?

Ted C wrote:
Thank you. Not much, but it does appear to confirm that his title is inherited.

Since he was presumably take for training as an infant, we can only assume that the Jedi Order keeps records of where they pick up their assorted infant charges.

Unfortunately, there's no explanation of the circumstances under which he left the Jedi Order.

I remember reading about that (Dooku's "Count" title) in the SW Insider yesterday, the Q&A section IIRC.

Read "Who is Count Dooku?" at the bottom of this article. It gives some insight as to why Dooku left the Order.
Also, the holonetnews Baby Ludi affair conclusively shows that the Order must gain the approval of the parent before taking the child.

I think that patriotism might have something to do with it. It's probably a bit like Nazi Germany...parents were awarded medals depending on how many children they produced. In the Republic, they might do something similar for offering a child to the Jedi.
They might also receive a monetary compensation.

Side note: 10000 jedis who have to be replaced after 60 years of active duty (slightly above the age of 80) require 167 jedis per year.
Side question: How Palpatine and Maul were not located by the jedis?

The parents are definitely allowed to decide for themselves what the proper course of action for their child is, as demonstrated by the case of Anakin, and Qui Gon's efforts to secure permission from Shmi before departing with Anakin.

Why would a parent be willing to give up custody of their child to the Jedi Order? Well, I would know that my son or daughter, when properly trained, would have a direct channel to the two most powerful bodie in the galaxy, the OldRepublic and the Jedi Order. The Jedi tradition has probably been well taught to galactic denziens, and any child would have a huge opportunity to become a galactic legend, when they otherwise might not have that kind of opportunity. With my child as a Jedi, I know that they would have an opportunity to become a major galactic power broker. What parent wouldn't consider that kind of possibility for their children?

Possibility: the Jedi are in deep decline because parents no longer want their kids to be Jedi, and can opt to keep their kids regardless of wealth or status. Qui-Gon's implication that Anakin would have been identified and trained early in the Republic probably assumed that Shmi would have gone along with this, perhaps because he knew that in her particular case, she would have. It doesn't necessarily mean the kids are taken by force.

vakundok wrote:Side note: 10000 jedis who have to be replaced after 60 years of active duty (slightly above the age of 80) require 167 jedis per year.
Side question: How Palpatine and Maul were not located by the jedis?

Perhaps the Sith got to them first.

Ted C wrote: That doesn't explain why they cut him loose. They know what kind of power a Jedi Knight has at his disposal, and they basically set him free to use that power at his own discretion. That seems extremely negligent to me. They obviously have unjustified faith in their training system, but even in such a setting, just letting Dooku go do whatever he pleases seems more than a little naive.

Well, at the time, 19 others had previously left the Jedi Order, and from what we can tell, none of them abused there power afterwards.

If we were to assume that Dooku left the Jedi order before The Phantom Menace, the Jedi would not have known that there was a Sith Lord running around. If they had, they might have been less willing to let him go.

As for Dooku inheriting his title and wealth, I dont see why the Jedi wouldnt have made his family history available to him when he left the order.

vakundok wrote:]The Psi Corp hunted the free psi individuals and forced them to join. Taking away a baby from the family because he or she can become a danger in the unseen future (since not even the jedis can see the future exactly) is an extremely evil thing. Judgement far before a possible crime.

Never said it was a good thing. But the situation with the telepaths in B5 is a bit different. Even without training they can use their powers.

I was just using it as an example.

Darth Yoshi wrote:

vakundok wrote:Side note: 10000 jedis who have to be replaced after 60 years of active duty (slightly above the age of 80) require 167 jedis per year.
Side question: How Palpatine and Maul were not located by the jedis?

Perhaps the Sith got to them first.

Well very little is known about Palp...but one can assume he may have never shown any significant powers until he was immersed by a Sith teacher...or perhaps because of said teacher could do a similar trick to what he does to the Jedi and mask his powers.

Maul is explained in a variety of little short stories as basically found by Palptine through visions and his village is promptly slaughterd and all records of such destroyed...Maul was basically a clean slate that no one could ever find out about.

irishmick79 wrote:The parents are definitely allowed to decide for themselves what the proper course of action for their child is, as demonstrated by the case of Anakin, and Qui Gon's efforts to secure permission from Shmi before departing with Anakin.

Why would a parent be willing to give up custody of their child to the Jedi Order? Well, I would know that my son or daughter, when properly trained, would have a direct channel to the two most powerful bodie in the galaxy, the OldRepublic and the Jedi Order. The Jedi tradition has probably been well taught to galactic denziens, and any child would have a huge opportunity to become a galactic legend, when they otherwise might not have that kind of opportunity. With my child as a Jedi, I know that they would have an opportunity to become a major galactic power broker. What parent wouldn't consider that kind of possibility for their children?

Not your son or daughter will be a jedi. (Only genetically.) Family ties are cut completely. You will most likely never see your baby again. (Your BABY not a young girl or boy who you send to an university.) You loose your baby and maybe twenty years later will be a new jedi who will not remember or recognize you.

Sadly, Anakin and Shmi were not typical.
1. They were slaves, so any free life could only be better.
2. Anakin had previously shown that he was different and caused Shmi to believe he had a fate.

neoolong wrote:

vakundok wrote:]The Psi Corp hunted the free psi individuals and forced them to join. Taking away a baby from the family because he or she can become a danger in the unseen future (since not even the jedis can see the future exactly) is an extremely evil thing. Judgement far before a possible crime.

Never said it was a good thing. But the situation with the telepaths in B5 is a bit different. Even without training they can use their powers.

I was just using it as an example.

Anakin also used some of his talent at the age of 9 without any training. "He can see things ..." Luke was only able to do that after some training. So, Anakin could become dangereous to local society on his own since he was talented and really wanted to do something against slavery. The free psis were better trained but did not want to do against the society. They only wanted to live in peace.

If a jedi pops up and ask my baby I will deny it. What the jedis can do? Accept it or force me. Accepting leads to force sensitive free beings who can accidentaly find out some of their capabilities and after some years try to join to the jedis (and will be rejected). They will start to search others and exchange experience. This is nearly the same how the Jedi Order started. Forcing leads to anger.

Jedi arrogance. They probably assumed they would be allowed to take the kids. I never said the Jedi Order worked really well. Arrogance was part of the reason it fell.

neoolong wrote:Jedi arrogance. They probably assumed they would be allowed to take the kids. I never said the Jedi Order worked really well. Arrogance was part of the reason it fell.

The arrogance was quite new according to Yoda, but the training method (starting in the age of under one year) had to be a quite old practice, otherwise the council would not be shocked by Anakin's age.

vakundok wrote:

neoolong wrote:Jedi arrogance. They probably assumed they would be allowed to take the kids. I never said the Jedi Order worked really well. Arrogance was part of the reason it fell.

The arrogance was quite new according to Yoda, but the training method (starting in the age of under one year) had to be a quite old practice, otherwise the council would not be shocked by Anakin's age.

Please read the whole post next time. The arrogance refers to them expecting to be able to take children as they choose. They have probably not had many occurrances with having been refused.

You raise a good point and this is why they were destroyed. They were individually heroic but rotten to the core. Power had corrupted all of them to a degree and they payed for it. It's obvious that a lot of what they did had little connection with the Force and instead had to do with being Jedi (and ensuring loyalty to it) and maintaining the Jedi's influence.


Really the only thing that prevented them from being seen as "the bad guys" is their heroics. Much like the Knights Templar they had grown arrogant and isolated and once their heroics had lost their luster they got wiped out. In Wedge's Gamble, we see just how Palpatine manipulated them. He simply showed their corruption, arrogance and isolation to the people of the Republic and used that as the pretense to exerminate them.

I can see why fans see individual Jedi as heroes; they are. But as an organization they were rotten.

vakundok wrote:You forgot about the probability of dying during the jedi trial ...

Provide evidence that the trials are often fatal.