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Thanas wrote:(like Jedi needing combat training by Fett to prevail against sith).

Which of her "books" is that gem from? The Jedi have been fighting the Sith and winning for 25,000 years. Why the fuck would Fett know anything about fighting Sith?

Goddamn, I hate Traviss.

One of the legacy of the future books. Not only did she kill Mara in the most retarded way possible, she also made sure in another book that without Fett training Jaina, she would not have been able to kill her brother.

Yeah, Jaina-freaking-Solo who went one-vs-all against the best warriors of the Vong and won, is suddenly a nincompoop who is astonished at the Mando prowess and needs training.

Well, at least Lucasfilm is shitting all over her with the Clone Wars series, perhaps they can do the same with novels. Sure, it won't look too good for the continuity department, but in this case, who gives a fuck?

I think Traviss really pissed somebody off at LFL. In the Fate of the Jedi books, one of the primary antagonists is Dalaa, a crazy bitch with a hatred for Jedi and a fetish for Mandalorians (and bothans ). Sound familiar to anyone?

Darksider wrote:I think Traviss really pissed somebody off at LFL. In the Fate of the Jedi books, one of the primary antagonists is Dalaa, a crazy bitch with a hatred for Jedi and a fetish for Mandalorians (and bothans ). Sound familiar to anyone?

Now that you mention it, yes.

Especially because pre-super-crazy Daala (she always was crazy but now...) had none of the madalorian and bothan fetishes. Heck, her original plan (use terror attacks to prove the NR is not a viable government because it cannot protect its citizens) at least made some sense based on the political situation at the time being.

But in the end, I doubt they are that vindictive at LFL.

Star Wars 888 wrote:

Talhe wrote:I always figured that Sideous and Dooku helped fund the army. Dooku came from royalty and had money, and Sideous is a master of deception and scheming, as well as heir to the Sith legacy.

Not even royalty can afford to build a Galactic Navy without anybody noticing.

The whole secret rearming thing is cribbed from what the Germans did in WWII. The only thing here, the rearming wasn't a secret from the Germans themselves! There was a lot of trickery, designing "civilian" products that were dual-use, i.e. passenger airliners that could be converted to bombers.

I could buy the idea of secretly developing a powerful new weapon like an advanced starfigher prototype. Building squadrons of them in secret along with training the pilots, not so much. Secretly building whole armies, even less likely. Some might argue that given the resource levels of the Star Wars universe, even a battle fleet could be a drop in the bucket and overlooked. If that's the case, then the major powers should be flying gigafleets and battle fleets become insignificant again. To keep a sensible scale of power, major warships should represent major investments. Your random Hutt gangster shouldn't have the equivalent of an ISD as a personal yacht.

Destructionator XIII wrote:
edit: Why would the clone facilities exist there in the first place if there were no other buyers? /edit

This seems like a reasonable question to me. Since the Kaminoians are in business in the first place (and have the facilities to train soldiers in all manner of warfare) then perhaps the clone army wasn't noticed because clone armies (or some sort of secuirty force) are already being fielded by some of the other corporations?

The Vortex Empire wrote:

Thanas wrote:(like Jedi needing combat training by Fett to prevail against sith).

Which of her "books" is that gem from? The Jedi have been fighting the Sith and winning for 25,000 years. Why the fuck would Fett know anything about fighting Sith?

Goddamn, I hate Traviss.

I think that was Revelation, a novel so notoriously bad that it proved to be the "jump the shark" moment even for Traviss's EU fans. It was on the level of wanked-out fanfic, where she showed no restraint in hating on the Jedi while glorifying Boba Fett to an absurd degree.

The fan "YodaKenobi" wrote an epic review of the book. You can see the ugly details in this thread, about one-third of the way down the page.

jollyreaper wrote:

Star Wars 888 wrote:

Talhe wrote:I always figured that Sideous and Dooku helped fund the army. Dooku came from royalty and had money, and Sideous is a master of deception and scheming, as well as heir to the Sith legacy.

Not even royalty can afford to build a Galactic Navy without anybody noticing.

The whole secret rearming thing is cribbed from what the Germans did in WWII. The only thing here, the rearming wasn't a secret from the Germans themselves! There was a lot of trickery, designing "civilian" products that were dual-use, i.e. passenger airliners that could be converted to bombers.

I could buy the idea of secretly developing a powerful new weapon like an advanced starfigher prototype. Building squadrons of them in secret along with training the pilots, not so much. Secretly building whole armies, even less likely. Some might argue that given the resource levels of the Star Wars universe, even a battle fleet could be a drop in the bucket and overlooked. If that's the case, then the major powers should be flying gigafleets and battle fleets become insignificant again. To keep a sensible scale of power, major warships should represent major investments. Your random Hutt gangster shouldn't have the equivalent of an ISD as a personal yacht.

C'mon now. Single planets like Kuats were already fielding giant battleships, of which a single one has more tonnage than the entire Grand Army Fleet. If you get a Mandator as system defence flagship, then 200 or so Venators are not really that noticeable.

Jim Raynor wrote:

The Vortex Empire wrote:

Thanas wrote:(like Jedi needing combat training by Fett to prevail against sith).

Which of her "books" is that gem from? The Jedi have been fighting the Sith and winning for 25,000 years. Why the fuck would Fett know anything about fighting Sith?

Goddamn, I hate Traviss.

I think that was Revelation, a novel so notoriously bad that it proved to be the "jump the shark" moment even for Traviss's EU fans. It was on the level of wanked-out fanfic, where she showed no restraint in hating on the Jedi while glorifying Boba Fett to an absurd degree.

The fan "YodaKenobi" wrote an epic review of the book. You can see the ugly details in this thread, about one-third of the way down the page.

The review is actually on page 5.


I also cannot stand the stupid way she killed Mara and the even stupider way she tried to tie the Siegfried Saga to her death.

Talhe wrote:I always figured that Sideous and Dooku helped fund the army. Dooku came from royalty and had money, and Sideous is a master of deception and scheming, as well as heir to the Sith legacy.

This was my impression as well. Remember that Dooku was from a family wealthy enough to own their own hunting planet, with others implied. Still, just paying Fett's 1 million cred fee probably hurt.

Thanas wrote:Again, contradicted by the evidence itself. Pellaeon mentions no deficiency in ordinary Spaarti clones when talking about them to Thrawn and this is before Thrawn even mentions the Ysalamiri tactic.

As a side note, anything written by Traviss can usually be discounted because said author directly contradicted established canon in nearly every single one of her books (like Jedi needing combat training by Fett to prevail against sith).

Sorry for the late reply but I'm currently on a three-month stay in the good ol' People's Republic of China and setting up my internet connection proved to be somewhat cumbersome and the connection was for a while annoyingly unstable, but I'm all set now.

On topic. OK conceded, but that of course raises the question why one would one even bother with the Kaminoan process at all then. If you can have clones of the same quality but combat ready in a fraction of the time...why didn't the Kaminoans go bankrupt long ago? Is there really no tangible benefit to grooming the clones over a longer period and letting them have life-fire exercises instead of a memory-implanted boot camp?

Metahive wrote:

Thanas wrote:Again, contradicted by the evidence itself. Pellaeon mentions no deficiency in ordinary Spaarti clones when talking about them to Thrawn and this is before Thrawn even mentions the Ysalamiri tactic.

As a side note, anything written by Traviss can usually be discounted because said author directly contradicted established canon in nearly every single one of her books (like Jedi needing combat training by Fett to prevail against sith).

Sorry for the late reply but I'm currently on a three-month stay in the good ol' People's Republic of China and setting up my internet connection proved to be somewhat cumbersome and the connection was for a while annoyingly unstable, but I'm all set now.

On topic. OK conceded, but that of course raises the question why one would one even bother with the Kaminoan process at all then. If you can have clones of the same quality but combat ready in a fraction of the time...why didn't the Kaminoans go bankrupt long ago? Is there really no tangible benefit to grooming the clones over a longer period and letting them have life-fire exercises instead of a memory-implanted boot camp?

Spaarti tubes may simply be rarer? Kamino's techniques were better for what Palpatine wanted as a part of his plan?

To be honest, there's just things we have to surmise and logic out because there is no mention of why.

Ghost Rider wrote:Spaarti tubes may simply be rarer? Kamino's techniques were better for what Palpatine wanted as a part of his plan?

To be honest, there's just things we have to surmise and logic out because there is no mention of why.

Yes, one shouldn't probably think too much about things like that, but I for one like Star Wars and for another were rather underwhelmed by the prequels. I guess that combination causes an obsession with details like that.

If Spaarti tubes were in less plentiful supply than whatever the Kaminoans call their contraptions then it wouldn't solve the whole problem of insufficient manpower. As for K-Clones being better suited for Palp's purposes...wouldn't the memory implants make it easier to smuggle in sleeper triggers like Order 66? If Order 66 was a sleeper trigger of course. I read elswhere it was just a contingency that the clones trained for without the Jedi noticing (gross obliviousness is something the Jedi are definitely not short of in the prequels).

Metahive wrote:Yes, one shouldn't probably think too much about things like that, but I for one like Star Wars and for another were rather underwhelmed by the prequels. I guess that combination causes an obsession with details like that.

If Spaarti tubes were in less plentiful supply than whatever the Kaminoans call their contraptions then it wouldn't solve the whole problem of insufficient manpower. As for K-Clones being better suited for Palp's purposes...wouldn't the memory implants make it easier to smuggle in sleeper triggers like Order 66? If Order 66 was a sleeper trigger of course. I read elswhere it was just a contingency that the clones trained for without the Jedi noticing (gross obliviousness is something the Jedi are definitely not short of in the prequels).

I think big difference in quality is training.
Kaminoans are, as stated, trained for 10 years until reaching maturity. During this time they develop emotionally/psychologically.

Spaarti produces clones in little over one year who are then flashprinted, essentially having someone elses personality (and apparently knowledge) put in.

Spaarti-clones are clones in every way. Physical, psychological and so forth. Kaminoan clones are much more indidivualistic (even in training seeks to eliminate these traits), as part of personality comes from living conditions. Not that they would have any kind of normal personality.

Anyway, what I try to say is that Kaminoan clones might be little less predictable. Spaarti-clones are exact replicas, so when you know how one acts you know how they all act. In essence being flesh sculpted version of droid army.

^Tiwaz, that does not mean however that this is going to help you much. This is especially noted in Starfighter combat - at some point they are just that skilled that even if you know how they might fight, it is not going to do you much good.

Ghost Rider wrote: Spaarti tubes may simply be rarer? Kamino's techniques were better for what Palpatine wanted as a part of his plan?

To be honest, there's just things we have to surmise and logic out because there is no mention of why.

Remember Sifo Dyas had placed the order for the clone army and then Palpatine/Dooku usurped the army after discovering of the plan. The Kaminoan clones may not have necessarily been Palpatine's first choice but with Sifo Dyas dead they became a convenient tool for his plan to take over the galaxy. If Palpatine prefers the Spaarti Clones, then it makes sense for the transition later on despite whatever the difference in quality may be.

Darth Fanboy wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote: Spaarti tubes may simply be rarer? Kamino's techniques were better for what Palpatine wanted as a part of his plan?

To be honest, there's just things we have to surmise and logic out because there is no mention of why.

Remember Sifo Dyas had placed the order for the clone army and then Palpatine/Dooku usurped the army after discovering of the plan. The Kaminoan clones may not have necessarily been Palpatine's first choice but with Sifo Dyas dead they became a convenient tool for his plan to take over the galaxy. If Palpatine prefers the Spaarti Clones, then it makes sense for the transition later on despite whatever the difference in quality may be.

I understand, but my point was we can only surmise and connect possibilities. Other then that, all we know is the EU mentions Spaarti being top quality, but Sifo Dyas going with Kamino and Palpy/Dooky going "Sure, why not?" and with Palpy still using them throughout the war.

Metahive wrote:On topic. OK conceded, but that of course raises the question why one would one even bother with the Kaminoan process at all then. If you can have clones of the same quality but combat ready in a fraction of the time...why didn't the Kaminoans go bankrupt long ago? Is there really no tangible benefit to grooming the clones over a longer period and letting them have life-fire exercises instead of a memory-implanted boot camp?

The Kaminoans may be more adept at genetic engineering and conditioning their clones to obey orders. Palpatine didn't want X million Jango Fetts; he wanted X million obedient slave-minds in Jango Fett's body, with (possibly dozens of) secret command codes brainwashed into them. That extra conditioning might be impractical unless you grow them the long way. Spaarti clones might well be suitable for the bulk of the armed forces, for that matter, while Kaminoan clones are used as high-reliability enforcers.

Also, for Palpatine's purposes, having the clones take ten years to grow in a secret location was acceptable, because he wasn't ready to stage the Clone Wars for some years anyway. He needed time to build up his power base within the Republic as Palpatine and secure his control over the CIS as Sidious, and he wasn't in all that big a hurry because he could profitably employ his time while the clones were busy growing in an obscure location where no one was going to stumble across them.

Thanas wrote:^Tiwaz, that does not mean however that this is going to help you much. This is especially noted in Starfighter combat - at some point they are just that skilled that even if you know how they might fight, it is not going to do you much good.

That on other hand would require on how great pilot you manage to copy to flash into your clones. And real danger rests on higher level of operations, spaarti-clones would use identical strategies on wide scale as well. And having a commander who can be easily read is recipe for disaster at war. As Simon said, spaarti would make good grunts but you would need someone less predictable to command them.

Though one must note that Spaarti-clones would start to diversify on skills once they are out of cylinders, based on their personal experiences. They just start as grey mass which has identical flaws and strengths.

They were robot army made from flesh, but with slower production rates.

Tiwaz wrote:They were robot army made from flesh, but with slower production rates.

Where we arrived at one of the biggest questions (again). Why use clones when they're only about as competent as or just slightly better than droids but can only be produced at a cripplingly slower rate? Droids can be produced within hours and deployed into combat right from the assembly line as the second battle of Geonosis implies. Then there comes the point that the regular republican military is a rag-tag conglomerate of thousands of different local militias thrown together reminding me of the old "Reichsheer" that the Holy Roman Empire send to battle from time to time and probably with as much combat efficiency.
So, why didn't the Republic create an army of droids itself? They already used droids as police grunts after all.

Metahive wrote:Where we arrived at one of the biggest questions (again). Why use clones when they're only about as competent as or just slightly better than droids but can only be produced at a cripplingly slower rate? Droids can be produced within hours and deployed into combat right from the assembly line as the second battle of Geonosis implies. Then there comes the point that the regular republican military is a rag-tag conglomerate of thousands of different local militias thrown together reminding me of the old "Reichsheer" that the Holy Roman Empire send to battle from time to time and probably with as much combat efficiency.
So, why didn't the Republic create an army of droids itself? They already used droids as police grunts after all.

Because clones are self improving. Droids are limited by their programming.

Droid and spaarti-clone start similar. Both have fixed "programming". But after that clone starts to learn and improve. Droid does not.

Kaminoan clones had 10 year headstart on spaarti-clones, decade to build on whatever information was flashed to their brains. This would be specially important for commanders and/or special troops.

Metahive wrote:

Tiwaz wrote:They were robot army made from flesh, but with slower production rates.

Where we arrived at one of the biggest questions (again). Why use clones when they're only about as competent as or just slightly better than droids but can only be produced at a cripplingly slower rate? Droids can be produced within hours and deployed into combat right from the assembly line as the second battle of Geonosis implies. Then there comes the point that the regular republican military is a rag-tag conglomerate of thousands of different local militias thrown together reminding me of the old "Reichsheer" that the Holy Roman Empire send to battle from time to time and probably with as much combat efficiency.
So, why didn't the Republic create an army of droids itself? They already used droids as police grunts after all.

Blah blah blah Jamming blah blah Shroud of the Dark Side blah blah the droids may be mechanically simpler than the blaster's they're wielding blah blah.

The Kaminoans said clones can "think creatively" and are "far superior to droids" but they kind of have a vested interest.

Furthermore, given the stigma that would result against droids, I think the Republic citizens would be more comfortable with organics as their soldiers rather than what the evil enemy is using.

Srelex wrote:Furthermore, given the stigma that would result against droids, I think the Republic citizens would be more comfortable with organics as their soldiers rather than what the evil enemy is using.

But they're perfectly OK with droid policemen. Soldiers are usually something that stays out of visual range in society, policemen don't.