African Miners Shot By Chinese Overseers.

[weemadando]

Well China also pulled some rate moves today that threw about world markets. Is it a coordinated muscle flex? Probably not. But when you're that big, being uncoordinated is just as dangerous.

[K. A. Pital]

Well, maybe because China needs to deal with internal inflation (which is causing discontent among the people), and frankly they are taking the right steps instead of the no-holds-barred, idiotic takeover of corporate debt by nation-states and "the Great Salvation of Capitalism" (TM) which all the First World nations indulged into like a wild narco-trip?

China does what's right for China with the rate hike, and as far as I know, rate setting is a sovereign matter. The US didn't ask anyone when it lowered the rate to almost zero and flooded the economy, both its own and the world, with cheap dollars.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, maybe because China needs to deal with internal inflation (which is causing discontent among the people), and frankly they are taking the right steps instead of the no-holds-barred, idiotic takeover of corporate debt by nation-states and "the Great Salvation of Capitalism" (TM) which all the First World nations indulged into like a wild narco-trip?

China does what's right for China with the rate hike, and as far as I know, rate setting is a sovereign matter. The US didn't ask anyone when it lowered the rate to almost zero and flooded the economy, both its own and the world, with cheap dollars.

Actually, the Chinese did squeak a little, because they held considerable holdings of US Federal Bonds. And there was talk that the two countries came to some kind of agreement with regard to that. But however, every thing is done behind closed doors.

The key difference between the China and the Western world is that China doesn't feel too inclined to be transparent about their policy moves. They just do as they feel like it, which isn't very reassuring to many.

[K. A. Pital]

Please, when has the "Western world" been transparent about "its moves"? The US just does what it wants and wherever Second and Third world nations raise objections, it tells them to fuck themselves. The West has not been transparent about anything - the state of the financial sector (the crisis did not come out of the Third World), about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (which are becoming more transparent thanks to the effort of NGOs and often borderline vigilantes like Wikileaks!). Hell, fucking hell, 30-40 years onwards stories rise about the First World nations doing evil shit X or evil shit Y at some point in the past but no one gives a shit.

No, don't feed that to me.

How are the huge financial machinations that the banks and the governments were doing during the last few years "transparent", please tell? What has been exposed is an utter lack of anything even remotely resembling transparency. And this is sad, because large and democratic First World nations are, in fact, no more predictable than a nation like China.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Please, when has the "Western world" been transparent about "its moves"? The US just does what it wants and wherever Second and Third world nations raise objections, it tells them to fuck themselves. The West has not been transparent about anything - the state of the financial sector (the crisis did not come out of the Third World), about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (which are becoming more transparent thanks to the effort of NGOs and often borderline vigilantes like Wikileaks!). Hell, fucking hell, 30-40 years onwards stories rise about the First World nations doing evil shit X or evil shit Y at some point in the past but no one gives a shit.

No, don't feed that to me.

How are the huge financial machinations that the banks and the governments were doing during the last few years "transparent", please tell? What has been exposed is an utter lack of anything even remotely resembling transparency. And this is sad, because large and democratic First World nations are, in fact, no more predictable than a nation like China.

Look Stas, we were talking about financial issues, so obviously I was talking about financial transparency, which most Chinese companies utterly fail in that regard much less the utterly henpecked Chinese central bank which has virtually no power whatsoever.

[Bakustra]

And yes, China going "Fuck the rest of you, I've got mine!" IS evil. It's textbook sociopathy.

Please. This holier-than-thou attitude is just ridiculous. A sovereign nation can do what it wants with its trade. The US has used trade so many times as political leverage that no fucktard in any First World nation has a right to bitch that a former Third World nation (which they fucked in the ass and then again during Opium Wars and other nice colonial excesses) suddenly has the gall to stand up to them all and say FUCK YOU loud and clear.

In a certain way I must say I always love it when Third World nations say FUCK YOU loud and clear to First World nations. Because the First World has been so indifferent, cruel and callous to these "lower people" during history that I get a sense of karmic justice overflowing me every time I hear a story like this.

I just think that it's ironic that apparently "market socialism" means adopting the worst practices of both socialism and capitalism. But I especially love the belief that China has somehow shot itself in the foot by following in American footsteps.

[Broomstick]

Look, I hate to say it, but management shooting striking/protesting miners is nothing new, and in no way limited to China.

The US has a long history of violently putting down protests of working conditions and low pay by miners - for example, Leadville, Colorado in 1896, shots fired and dynamite thrown, 5 dead plus some additional random killings. In 1906 Americans in Arizona crossed the Mexican border to Cananea, Sonora to put down a mining protest there, at least a half dozen (almost certainly more) killed there. In 1931 in Harlan County, Kentucky the National Guard were used to put down a mining protest against wage cuts. Several dead there as well.

Just about any other country that has ever engaged in mining has a similar history of killing miners who dared to stand up for better conditions. So, while it's horrible and deplorable get off your high horses and stop pretending this is a feature of China and nowhere else - it's actually par for the course. That in no way makes it OK, just that this isn't unusual if you know you're history.

Remember that China - like everyone else - tends to put their own interests first. Wow, big surprise, they're human! On top of that, the Chinese treat a lot of their own population pretty shitty, so I don't know why anyone would think they'd treat foreign Africans any better, or even as well. Frankly, I'm a little surprised the West gave enough of a damn about Africans getting shot for this to make the news at all, but maybe we are gradually taking baby steps towards regarding all human beings as worthy of notice. Or maybe somebody just wanted an excuse to bash China.

[Sea Skimmer]

Then why this song and dance? If China has legitmate reasons to shrink rare earth exports then why not simply say that their mines can't handle it, instead of kicking up their feet and possibly pissing people off?

They fucking did say exactly that. You think I came up with those three reasons on my own? The song and dance is coming from idiots in the west who simply refuse to do any research and realize that the Mountain Pass mine in the US alone used to meet most of the world demand single handedly. The main reason politicians care meanwhile is simply because these Chinese laws are violating the spirit of the World Trade Organization, though if they have broken the letter of the law or not is simply going to have to go to court.

[Alferd Packer]

Honestly, when I first read the article, I thought, "Wow, China is becoming the new United States." While it may not be totally true, it may be that nations, as part of their development into economic and political powerhouses, start throwing their weight around more and more, which, of course, upsets the status quo. Maybe it's simply unavoidable. If the rest of the First World did not conduct themselves ethically during their rise to power, why should we expect up-and-coming nations to suddenly do so?

[D.Turtle]

Because hopefully (and realistically) there is some progress in what behavior is deemed acceptable and what isn't?

Which is why I disagree with Broomstick that killing striking workers/miners is normal or nothing new even in the western world. All the examples she cited were more than 70 or 80 years ago - a time during which major powers still routinely fought wars directly against each other.

So yes, this is something deplorable and wrong.

Is the western world better? Not always, but it is tried (at least in the eyes of the public in most of the western world) to act ethically - even if it incurs additional costs.

[AniThyng]

Because hopefully (and realistically) there is some progress in what behavior is deemed acceptable and what isn't?

Which is why I disagree with Broomstick that killing striking workers/miners is normal or nothing new even in the western world. All the examples she cited were more than 70 or 80 years ago - a time during which major powers still routinely fought wars directly against each other.

So yes, this is something deplorable and wrong.

Is the western world better? Not always, but it is tried (at least in the eyes of the public in most of the western world) to act ethically - even if it incurs additional costs.

Sometimes this additional cost is paid for by shifting the burden of pollution offshore? From what I can see, the main difference between the CCP and the USA is that the CCP clumsily tries to censor news of atrocities as it happens, while the USA does terrible things by proxy or in such secrecy that when it does come to light years or decades later it's dismissable by "that was a different era, we're better now".

Significant that you added "public in most of the western world". The public in most of the eastern world, even english speaking democratically minded people who might have even studied abroad in western universities are much more ambiavalent.

[Simon_Jester]

I just think that it's ironic that apparently "market socialism" means adopting the worst practices of both socialism and capitalism. But I especially love the belief that China has somehow shot itself in the foot by following in American footsteps.

It's debatable that America has shot itself in the foot, long-term, over these past fifty years, so that seems entirely reasonable to me.

Lack of accountability in government institutions, lack of efficient and reliable mechanisms for keeping businesses from harming the public interest, lack of accountability for our actions overseas, these things do bite the US on the ass fairly often. I mean, I think nearly everyone here would agree that it's one of the great vices of our era that the US seems unable to recognize the problem and elect a government willing to deal with the root causes.

Why shouldn't China suffer if it makes the same mistakes?

[Shroom Man 777]

Honestly, when I first read the article, I thought, "Wow, China is becoming the new United States." While it may not be totally true, it may be that nations, as part of their development into economic and political powerhouses, start throwing their weight around more and more, which, of course, upsets the status quo. Maybe it's simply unavoidable. If the rest of the First World did not conduct themselves ethically during their rise to power, why should we expect up-and-coming nations to suddenly do so?

I really don't get why people are so upset when countries start behaving like America/the First World. Get iPods made by underpaid Third World employees who need to have nets outside their windows so they won't jump off their workshops and suicide. Outsource call centers to underpaid foreigners. Enslave immigrants to do your carpentry and harvest your craps. Everyone wants to be America, man. This is why China is doing what its doing. Because it wants to be America. (Because this is what America does to the rest of the world) China wants to be First World.

This is the greatness of America. The world doesn't hate America, the world is not repulsed by America. No. The world wants to become America. That is why it is both so beautiful and so horrible.

There can only be NONE!

They saw what America did, and what America did was magnificent. This is why I believe America will never fall, by the way. It cannot fall. It's impossible. Never. Ever. America is America. Defeat is absurd.



But the country's disintegrating. What's happened to America? What's happened to the American dream?

It came true. You're lookin' at it. Now c'mon... let's really put these jokers through some changes.

[Bakustra]

I just think that it's ironic that apparently "market socialism" means adopting the worst practices of both socialism and capitalism. But I especially love the belief that China has somehow shot itself in the foot by following in American footsteps.

It's debatable that America has shot itself in the foot, long-term, over these past fifty years, so that seems entirely reasonable to me.

Lack of accountability in government institutions, lack of efficient and reliable mechanisms for keeping businesses from harming the public interest, lack of accountability for our actions overseas, these things do bite the US on the ass fairly often. I mean, I think nearly everyone here would agree that it's one of the great vices of our era that the US seems unable to recognize the problem and elect a government willing to deal with the root causes.

Why shouldn't China suffer if it makes the same mistakes?

It's not the reasonable, "this-will-fuck-you-up-in-the-long-run" approach, it's shrieking about how evil the "Chicoms" are, though. I mean, the people who condemn China for this are often the sort of people that cheerlead anything the US does overseas as being natural for us as the "hegemon".

[Shroom Man 777]

Of course. There can only be one, Bakustra.

The reason why people loathe these things is because what they're seeing isn't China, it isn't Russia, it isn't anyone. It's America. The reason why these countries do it is because they want to be America. That is why America is God's most beautiful creation. It lies. It says freedom this, democracy that, but as it does so, while its people enjoy all their iPods and consumer electronic shit and branded products, all the hardship and torture and depravities have been basically outsourced to the Third World. It's hypocrisy. But the greatness of America lies not in its hypocrisy, for all nations are by definition hypocrites. What makes America so great is that other nations want to partake in America's hypocrisy out of their own free wills, they want to join America, they want to lie with it. There is no coercion, there is no threat. Because deep down inside all of them is an American waiting to come. America came, and they want to join America in coming.

No other country has ever done something this great. But America did it. No other country has done it and no other country will ever do it again. What America has achieved is something never before seen in history. So what if America falls? So what if China replaces it? In doing so, China will merely become a new America, an America Two. Rejoice in this. For in this, America will never die. This is the truth of America.

God bless America.

[Simon_Jester]

This is the greatness of America. The world doesn't hate America, the world is not repulsed by America. No. The world wants to become America. That is why it is both so beautiful and so horrible.

There can only be NONE!

They saw what America did, and what America did was magnificent. This is why I believe America will never fall, by the way. It cannot fall. It's impossible. Never. Ever. America is America. Defeat is absurd.

But the country's disintegrating. What's happened to America? What's happened to the American dream?

It came true. You're lookin' at it. Now c'mon... let's really put these jokers through some changes.

Well, I think you exaggerate, but you're exaggerating something true... Sigh. It's like you said.

Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Shroomedian is the only thing that makes sense.

[D.Turtle]

Sometimes this additional cost is paid for by shifting the burden of pollution offshore? From what I can see, the main difference between the CCP and the USA is that the CCP clumsily tries to censor news of atrocities as it happens, while the USA does terrible things by proxy or in such secrecy that when it does come to light years or decades later it's dismissable by "that was a different era, we're better now".

Significant that you added "public in most of the western world". The public in most of the eastern world, even english speaking democratically minded people who might have even studied abroad in western universities are much more ambiavalent.

Um, I deliberately spoke about the western world (alternatively you can think "first world"). My impression is that the US is the odd one out, different from the rest (with GB trying to emulate them to a bit, but not as extreme).

Many, many things that are praised in the US by large parts of the public about what is acceptable behavior by companies and the government, would horrify most people in Germany, France, Skandinavian countries, etc.

[Simon_Jester]

True. At this point, Europe and the US basically represent two alternate models for what a First World country should look like, and while there are a lot of similarities in terms of wealth and power, there are also a lot of differences.

However, both 'versions' still have some of the same problems when it comes to outsourcing pollution and suffering to other countries to take advantage of low labor costs.: those cheap shoes and furniture being made by underpaid factory workers in China don't all get sold in the US, you know.

[MKSheppard]

They saw what America did, and what America did was magnificent. This is why I believe America will never fall, by the way. It cannot fall. It's impossible. Never. Ever. America is America. Defeat is absurd.

Till then, it's like you always say...we're society's only protection.

[MKSheppard]

No other country has ever done something this great. But America did it. No other country has done it and no other country will ever do it again. What America has achieved is something never before seen in history.

Actually, I'd argue that Rome achieved this, albeit with the ancient world and with an earlier variant. But that variant did not have the durability of The American Dream; which segues into your point:

So what if America falls? So what if China replaces it? In doing so, China will merely become a new America, an America Two. Rejoice in this. For in this, America will never die. This is the truth of America.

YES. China will exploit the countries that are unexploited due to America's collapse; suck the worlds oil up so that Chinese can drive on Chinese superhighways in Chinese automobiles....

My god...it's beautiful.

[Simon_Jester]

No other country has ever done something this great. But America did it. No other country has done it and no other country will ever do it again. What America has achieved is something never before seen in history.

Actually, I'd argue that Rome achieved this, albeit with the ancient world and with an earlier variant. But that variant did not have the durability of The American Dream; which segues into your point:

Going by the standards of "there once was a dream that was Rome," the 'Roman Dream' had at least a good century or so after the point at which it 'came true' in the sense that the Roman counterpart of the Comedian might say it had.

And that's using the most restrictive possible definitions. If you look at our hypothetical 'Roman Dream' as starting when the success of the Roman Republic reached its peak (say, somewhere in the general vicinity of 50 BC) and continuing until the Empire had become divided and damaged enough that it was in serious danger of "falling" (no longer able to provide for the population of Rome, no longer able to consistently repel invaders)... you're looking at a good four or five hundred years in there.

I'm not sure we'd be able to beat that, not least because our version is predicated on industrial resources that we're going to burn through a hell of a lot faster than the Romans ever did.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'm really loving this thread. I came looking for an outcry against chinese economic practices, and instead I get a great look at world culture.

Also, I think Shroom is a supervillain, and I will probably steal these monologues for a book some day.

[Shroom Man 777]

They saw what America did, and what America did was magnificent. This is why I believe America will never fall, by the way. It cannot fall. It's impossible. Never. Ever. America is America. Defeat is absurd.

Till then, it's like you always say...we're society's only protection.

From what?!

Actually, I'd argue that Rome achieved this, albeit with the ancient world and with an earlier variant. But that variant did not have the durability of The American Dream; which segues into your point:

I don't know, man. Did Rome seduce other countries into partaking in its hypocrisies by being what all those other countries wanted to be?

The interplay between America and the rest of the world isn't like Rome. In the Bible they called Rome the Great Whore, but America isn't anything like that. In the case of America, its all the other nations - the entire world - whoring themselves out so hard in trying to be America. That's the difference. That is why America will be immortal, while Rome will (was) not.

Look at the rest of the First World. America conquered them not through force, but through farce, and in its greatness America fashioned them into the likeness of its own image like clay, and then breathed life into them. America made them into little versions of itself, made them lie with it. I don't think the Roman Empire ever did anything like that to its contemporaries. Rome was simply not as great or as powerful as America.

Rome tried and failed to do something America did. Thirty five minutes ago!

Rome wishes it was America.

Also, I think Shroom is a supervillain, and I will probably steal these monologues for a book some day.

Do it? Dan, I'm not a SDN Serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd monologue my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you stealing it for a book some day? I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

[Simon_Jester]

Look at the rest of the First World. America conquered them not through force, but through farce, and in its greatness America fashioned them into the likeness of its own image like clay, and then breathed life into them.

This is tricky; I'm not sure to what extent it's true. Is a nation like France or Sweden or Japan really a likeness of America?

[Shroom Man 777]

I don't know about those places that are quite old and have lots of histories/traditions/cultures/etc. But when you think about it, the way America has basically ruled the world is, well, the clothes we wear are based on American fashions. The shit we watch on TV are all American shit. The gizmos we buy. The trends and whatevers of society are dictated by America. What's good, what's bad, what's hot and not, what's in and out. The way we talk, the language taught in our schools. Shit, maybe even the way we think.

Rome never did anything nearly like this. We watch America, we wear America, we speak America, we eat America, we think America. Its influence is everywhere. Its influence is everything. Everything is America!