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That was actually more aimed at CDiehl's seeming agreement with that attitude, I know myself that the Klingons are a race of disgusting Space Bullies. If I misunderstood CDiehl I apologize, but if I was right there are more things I'll throw in his direction.

Metahive wrote:If someone has been ransacked and besieged like that the chance is rather high he'll throw himself into the arms of the next best guy who comes to the rescue with a massive army in tow.

And if the next best guy who comes to the rescue happens to be a bunch of genocidal conquerors who are technologically advanced than all your competitors, and are lead by a race of people who hate everyone and everything and seek to control the galaxy, then everything is hunky dory and a-ok and absolutely no consequences can come from it? Also you keep mentioning the civilian Detapa council as being important to this discussion, well can I remind you of two things: one, the Klingons believed that the Detapa council had been taken over by shape-shifters, and two that when Dukat allied himself to the Dominion in exchange they helped him take over Cardassia? What do you suppose happened to that civilian government thanks to Dukat? Dukat did more harm to Cardassia than anyone ever did by putting out the welcoming mat for the Dominion, and look at his speech upon taking power:

By Inferno's Light wrote:DUKAT
(on viewscreen)
You might ask... should we fear
joining the Dominion? And I
answer you... Not in the least.
We should embrace the opportunity.
The Dominion recognizes us for
what we are... the true leaders of
the Alpha Quadrant.

DEEP SPACE NINE: "Inferno's Light" - REV. 12/17/96 - ACT ONE

24 CONTINUED:

As Dukat continues his speech, we...

CUT TO:

25 INT. WARDROOM (OPTICAL)

Dukat's speech continues. Sisko, Kira, Dax, O'Brien
and the BASHIR CHANGELING watches it on the wall
monitor.

DUKAT
(continues, on monitor)
And now that we are joined
together, equal partners in all
endeavors, the only people with
anything to fear... will be our
enemies.

Sisko reacts to Dukat's threat.

DUKAT
(continues, on the monitor)
My oldest son's birthday is in
five days. To him and to
Cardassians everywhere, I make the
following pledge. By the time his
birthday dawns, there will not be
a single Klingon alive in
Cardassian territory... or a
single Maquis colony left inside
our borders.

26 OMITTED

27 CLOSE ON KIRA

as she reacts to Dukat's naked imperialistic ambition.
She knew Cardassia the last time it was strong, and
she's not looking forward to those days coming back
again.

DUKAT
(continues, on the
monitor)
Cardassia will be made whole. All
that we have lost will be ours
again. And anyone who stands in
our way will be destroyed.

He's practically beating the war drums. Not to mention he threatens Sisko in a private communique later in the episode. Sisko, the only human in the galaxy who did more favours for Dukat than anyone else (including warning him about the Klingon invasion in 'Way of the Warrior') and he's saved his life too. He pays him back by threatening to invade Bajor and take back DS9.

The argument that the Cardassians allied with the Dominion out of necessity is not remotely convincing, as they could have gotten into bed with the Federation, and in fact the Federation were even giving the civilian lead Detapa council aid after the Klingon invasion. But Dukat decided to stab them all in the back and negotiate with the Dominion instead, because he wanted to return Cardassia to glory (and get power for himself), and while I won't say most Cardassians went along with it (there's no proof of that), most of the military did, and happily went along with it because they got their old glory back. Admit it, it's a weak justification. The Dominion are a known threat to the entire Alpha Quadrant, and allying yourself with them is inviting everyone else to gang up on you. And ultimately the Dominion killed more Cardassians than anyone in the alliance did!

I can't see how that isn't racist, "Dead Cardassians are nothing to cry about". Also hypocritical considering that the Klingons themselves are bloodthirsty conquerors who have subjected and massacred many a species. Kira didn't express such an attitude and she had way more justification for it.

Kira's character development precluded that sort of attitude because throughout the entire show she learned to overcome her prejudice. That was part of her arc. But if you recall, at the start of the show she was very much antagonistic towards the Cardassians, and that stayed true for much of the early years of the show. And there were many Bajorans who were far more hostile than she was and I wouldn't be surprised if there were plenty of people on Bajor who cheered when they learned that the Cardassians were on the receiving end of orbital bombardment.

Furthermore, it's not a hypocritical attitude for Martok to take, because as Uraniun pointed out, the Klingons have a very different outlook to life than we (or the Federation) do, which I can agree makes them barbarous in comparison. However not hypocritical. From Martok's perspective the Cardassians got into bed with the Dominion, and bear in mind that he wasn't around to see the Klingons invade Cardassia, which as I mentioned above the reason they did invade was because they thought the government had been taken over by a bunch of shapeshifters, and everyone was paranoid at that time so it wasn't a farfetched notion at all especially when there were rumours of uprisings and civil disobedience and the Cardassians had purposefully closed their borders so no information was getting out. Add to that the fact he was stuck in a Dominion POW camp at a time when hostilities weren't even declared between the Dominion and the Klingon Empire. He suffered the humiliation of being kept alive as a prisoner (when a Klingon would rather die) for almost two years, and he knows first hand the Dominion is a huge threat as a result. I wouldn't expect a Klingon, with Klingon attitudes to things like 'the enemy must be destroyed, the strong must prevail and aggressors and would-be conquerors who get their comeuppance deserve every penny etc' to cry crocodile tears over Cardassians getting bombed by their own allies.

I just don't see how it's motivated by race rather than pure schadenfreude at people who had a lot of bad karma saved up in the bank.

Have you not noticed that Damar started to drink quite heavily and even arranged for the death of a Weyoun clone long before he officially went into resistance? I think that's quite a sign of growing discontent and not sudden at all. Also, how can you call it inexplicable? The Dominion was using Cardassians as throwaway cannon fodder and sold their territory out to the Breen. If your allies let you know they consider you to be utterly expendable, then yes, that would cause loyalties to waver quite a bit.

Alright fine, I concede this point.

It should be mentioned that at the time the Klingons invaded Cardassia, Martok had been replaced by a Changeling and was Gowron's right hand. The Changeling was charging full speed ahead into war. There may have been a Klingon-Cardassian war without the Dominion meddling, but the Dominion was helping to start it.

That's a fantastic point - the Dominion influenced events so that the Klingons would invade Cardassia, and Dukat responds to this blatant act of aggression by the Dominion against Cardassia... by allying himself with it.

The whole 'let's go join the Dominion' thing loses a lot of weight when it was the Dominion who fucked up your empire. For all we know the Founders also influenced events that allowed teh Central Command to fall to the Detapa Council, whether directly or indirectly - certainly the latter, because of what happened in 'The Die is Cast'. But the idea that there could have been Founders leading the charge on Cardassia to disrupt it is not far-fetched.

Stofsk wrote:And if the next best guy who comes to the rescue happens to be a bunch of genocidal conquerors who are technologically advanced than all your competitors, and are lead by a race of people who hate everyone and everything and seek to control the galaxy, then everything is hunky dory and a-ok and absolutely no consequences can come from it?

Never claimed that. I said that desperate people will take anyone's help who can make a convincing argument.

Also you keep mentioning the civilian Detapa council as being important to this discussion, well can I remind you of two things: one, the Klingons believed that the Detapa council had been taken over by shape-shifters, and two that when Dukat allied himself to the Dominion in exchange they helped him take over Cardassia? What do you suppose happened to that civilian government thanks to Dukat? Dukat did more harm to Cardassia than anyone ever did by putting out the welcoming mat for the Dominion, and look at his speech upon taking power:

Already dealt with that point. Without the Klingons and the Maquis throwing the Cardassian Union into disarray, Dukat wouldn't have had a shot at that.

He's practically beating the war drums. Not to mention he threatens Sisko in a private communique later in the episode. Sisko, the only human in the galaxy who did more favours for Dukat than anyone else (including warning him about the Klingon invasion in 'Way of the Warrior') and he's saved his life too. He pays him back by threatening to invade Bajor and take back DS9.

Sisko's occupying the seat in the bureau Dukat considers to be his. If you happened to miss it, lording over Bajor was kind of a major obsession for Dukat right to the end of the series. When he also became the anti-Prophet-Jesus. OK, that I admit was total shit and crap writing.

The argument that the Cardassians allied with the Dominion out of necessity is not remotely convincing, as they could have gotten into bed with the Federation, and in fact the Federation were even giving the civilian lead Detapa council aid after the Klingon invasion.

Besides that they were not going to militarily intervene and chase the Klingons out of cardassian territory. That I would say is a major sticking point speaking against seeking out the Federation's help. The Federation would not risk an outright war for a species that they themselves hold in contempt.
Heck, until Sisko forced their hand with the mine field, the Federation stood idly by while Dominion forces were flooding into the AQ.

But Dukat decided to stab them all in the back and negotiate with the Dominion instead, because he wanted to return Cardassia to glory (and get power for himself), and while I won't say most Cardassians went along with it (there's no proof of that), most of the military did, and happily went along with it because they got their old glory back. Admit it, it's a weak justification. The Dominion are a known threat to the entire Alpha Quadrant, and allying yourself with them is inviting everyone else to gang up on you. And ultimately the Dominion killed more Cardassians than anyone in the alliance did!

Sorry, but getting vengeance on the rapacious Klingons and the Maquis is a strong motivating factor indeed. Not a weak justification at all since the alternative was potentially becoming a Klingon client species and human terrorists further poisoning their planets. Have you not seen in what a sorry state the military was before they joined the Dominion? Klingon warships were flying through their space virtually unchallenged. No, I can't condemn them for reaching for the nearest straw that promises a return to form and can back it up with massive firepower. You remember the first effect of joining the Dominion was that the Maquis were all but annihilated and the Klingons forced out of their space. Don't you think that would make the alliance quite popular among the people.
That the alliance cost them more lives...how should they have predicted that? They were counting on a victory and came damn close to it too.

That was part of her arc. But if you recall, at the start of the show she was very much antagonistic towards the Cardassians, and that stayed true for much of the early years of the show. And there were many Bajorans who were far more hostile than she was and I wouldn't be surprised if there were plenty of people on Bajor who cheered when they learned that the Cardassians were on the receiving end of orbital bombardment.

Kinda' my point. Kira matured as a character and her resentment (and that kind of resentment as a whole) was never portrayed as something positive anyway. Cheering about genocide is reprehensible, no matter who's at the receiving end of it, period. Even Picard eventually decides against commiting genocide on the Borg when he's given the chance. The stance of the show is clear and I happen to agree with it. Martok's a dumbass and should go fuck himself.

Another thing, where did you get the idea it was orbital bombardment? The Jem'hadar were getting their hands dirty on the ground, a major reason why the Dominion HQ was so weakly defended at the end.

From Martok's perspective the Cardassians got into bed with the Dominion, and bear in mind that he wasn't around to see the Klingons invade Cardassia, which as I mentioned above the reason they did invade was because they thought the government had been taken over by a bunch of shapeshifters, and everyone was paranoid at that time so it wasn't a farfetched notion at all especially when there were rumours of uprisings and civil disobedience and the Cardassians had purposefully closed their borders so no information was getting out.

That's just a convenient excuse, Gowron himself explains to Worf that the real reason is to capture cardassian territory and to seek out "glory" in battle. That they don't stop the war when the Federation proves that the Detapa Council hasn't been compromised is proof enough for that.

He suffered the humiliation of being kept alive as a prisoner (when a Klingon would rather die) for almost two years, and he knows first hand the Dominion is a huge threat as a result. I wouldn't expect a Klingon, with Klingon attitudes to things like 'the enemy must be destroyed, the strong must prevail and aggressors and would-be conquerors who get their comeuppance deserve every penny etc' to cry crocodile tears over Cardassians getting bombed by their own allies.

I don't want him to shed fake tears, I want him to not utter racist bullcrap and cheer about slaughtered civilians! Especially since those are getting slaughtered by the same people that mutiliated and humiliated him!

I just don't see how it's motivated by race rather than pure schadenfreude at people who had a lot of bad karma saved up in the bank.

Klingons are a racist species. That they are racist against Cardassians is shown in Way of the Warrior when Garak gets harassed for no reason other than being Cardassian. I don't see any reason why Martok should stick out of the common mold here.

Also, if I get you right, if the government is doing assholish or foolish things, all its citizens equally deserve to suffer for it up to including getting slaughtered en masse. That's a fucking awful attitude to have and I hope you only apply it to fictional species at max.

As for the "Martok was an impostor", I already dealt with that too. The way Gowron sounds in Way of the Warrior he didn't need lots of convincing and what does he do when the impostor is compromised? He freaking annexes the conquered cardassian territory all because bla bla, Klingons bled for it, bla bla, honor, bla bla. Fake Martok might have been a high ranking military leader, but Gowron was still the supreme chancellor who had to make the ultimate decision. The buck stops here.

Klingons are a racist species. That they are racist against Cardassians is shown in Way of the Warrior when Garak gets harassed for no reason other than being Cardassian. I don't see any reason why Martok should stick out of the common mold here.

Wow. Super ironic statement there.

Fine, Klingons have a culture based around their own racial supremacy. Content now, Grand Admiral Gratuitous M. Nitpick?

After having reconsidered the whole situation once more, I concede that Martok's statement most probably wasn't driven by racism, I remain however unconvinced that he had any sort of understandable and non-assholish justification for it. I must also remark further upon the Impostor-Martok issue. It strengthens my case since it means that the Cardassians were not only driven to despair but also had their trust betrayed by their erstwhile "saviours". I don't see how that makes it any more "understandable" to cheer their slaughter as "karmic retribution". They were tricked, cheated into joining the bad guy posse!

That is because you are trying to impose your "human" mindset on Gawron and the Klingons. And that is just plain silly.
At the risk of sounding like a Trekkie the Klingons are a completely different race (or species, depending on how you treat the whole thing with interbreeding with humans). They have a completely distinct culture based completely on war and honor. Plus, over the series we see them being essentially religious fundies for said culture.

I mean for the average human, the first thing you see is the tragedy of civilian deaths. But in a few weeks, or maybe a few years that all fades and in the end you are left with the notion that it was a hard fought but won war. it was not nice, it was not fun but at least you won it and that is something to be content about. In about 50 years you will see federation school children celebrating Sisko day and the defeat of the evil Cardasians. No one will care about the genocide.

The Klingons are a more honest breed. For them, the first thing they see is a battle won, and a war won. They feel the joy of victory. And quite honestly I can relate to that. Sure, civilians died but hell. In war people die, deal with it.
And even with this, I expect the development of their view on the situation to be the opposite of the federation. In the moment after battle they will throw a party. When they return home, they will throw a party. But in 50 years the only thing school children will learn about is how the dishonorable dominion killed civilians for no other reason but to demonstrate their dishonor.


If anything, Gawron was acting completely in character not only for his own personality, but for what his troops expected of him.
As a leader, he has to be decisive and celebrate the victory. Otherwise, they would think the dominion camps have weakened him and made him a soft humie. And this is trek we are talking about.

Purple wrote:That is because you are trying to impose your "human" mindset on Gawron and the Klingons. And that is just plain silly.
At the risk of sounding like a Trekkie the Klingons are a completely different race (or species, depending on how you treat the whole thing with interbreeding with humans). They have a completely distinct culture based completely on war and honor. Plus, over the series we see them being essentially religious fundies for said culture.

And just a minute ago I got chastised for slipping up and calling the Klingons a "racist species", now you make more or less the same claim. Also, on Mike Wong's main site there's a nice argument against the whole "Species X can't help being this way" thing that Trek and Trekkies like to pull.

The Klingons: In TNG, Worf once suffered a severe back injury and it was thought that he would be paralyzed for life. He asked Riker to kill him, and Riker refused. Picard then chastised Riker for not being sensitive to Worf's Klingon cultural values. When the doctor insisted that Worf learn to live with his disability just as any human would be expected to, Picard chastised her as well, for expecting Worf to make a cultural leap that was "too far, dammit, too far!". Classic example of racism- assuming that all Klingons (even one that was raised by adoptive human parents, on a Federation colony) are compelled to hold Klingon cultural values, and are incapable of understanding human cultural values. Very similar to the previous example.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Racism.html

I mean for the average human, the first thing you see is the tragedy of civilian deaths. But in a few weeks, or maybe a few years that all fades and in the end you are left with the notion that it was a hard fought but won war. it was not nice, it was not fun but at least you won it and that is something to be content about. In about 50 years you will see federation school children celebrating Sisko day and the defeat of the evil Cardasians. No one will care about the genocide.

What does that have to do with anything that's being discussed? Did I anywhere demand a Cardassian Holocaust Memorial or something without noticing it? I'm only saying that victims of a massacre do not make a fertile ground for celebration, even if they belong to an enemy species/race/country.

If anything, Gawron was acting completely in character not only for his own personality, but for what his troops expected of him.
As a leader, he has to be decisive and celebrate the victory. Otherwise, they would think the dominion camps have weakened him and made him a soft humie. And this is trek we are talking about.

Gowron was dead at that time. We are talking about Martok. Please pay attention. As for the rest, see my first point on top.

Metahive wrote:And just a minute ago I got chastised for slipping up and calling the Klingons a "racist species", now you make more or less the same claim. Also, on Mike Wong's main site there's a nice argument against the whole "Species X can't help being this way" thing that Trek and Trekkies like to pull.p

But they are. Or rather, they are a racist society.
The social norms that seem to permeate the current Klingon society include things like religious zealotry, honor and yes racism.
Not the kind of racism that would make them open up death camps, but you know. The kind to make them not really feel as sorry as we humans do about alien deaths.

Certainly there might be out layers within their people but as a norm that is what their society expects. And as such, the leader is expected to go along with it.

What does that have to do with anything that's being discussed? Did I anywhere demand a Cardassian Holocaust Memorial or something without noticing it? I'm only saying that victims of a massacre do not make a fertile ground for celebration, even if they belong to an enemy species/race/country.

They don't to you.
But you make a too broad asumption if you think that everyone has to share your values.

Heck, I would probably have done the same as the klingon leader and why not?

Gowron was dead at that time. We are talking about Martok. Please pay attention. As for the rest, see my first point on top.

Nitpicking are you. Listen, who cares about what the name of the guy is.
The point remains.

The guy has different cultural values than those we are used to. No one is making you like them. And sure, to us he might look like a complete monster. But in the scope of his character it is a completely normal and expected reaction.

I think you may not be looking at this from every point of view here.
I just have to comment on that as I want to here what you truly think about the situation?

Picture it wrote:You are standing in the background watching this scene unfold. Your left arm is in a sling and you have a bandage covering your left side of your face from damages incurred during the battle. You have lost friends, relatives over 90% of your graduating class and maybe even your home world to the war. To say that you helped to pay for this win with your own blood is not a fallacy.
So how do YOU feel when your leaders are mourning the death of the enemy? The Enemy that so many died to defeat? How much do they value the price of that victory?

If valuing the lives given to give me a victory over the lives taken makes me a racist, Then I guess I will except that.

Purple wrote:But they are. Or rather, they are a racist society.
The social norms that seem to permeate the current Klingon society include things like religious zealotry, honor and yes racism.
Not the kind of racism that would make them open up death camps, but you know. The kind to make them not really feel as sorry as we humans do about alien deaths.

Certainly there might be out layers within their people but as a norm that is what their society expects. And as such, the leader is expected to go along with it.

Jackass attitudes and practises do not suddenly become beyond reproach just because they come under the umbrella of "culture". Also, look a few pages back, I started this because Sea Trooper thought it was "sanctimonous" to not celebrate over the corpses of massacred civilians, but maybe he comes from a culture that values bloodthirsty vindictiveness too and I am therefore not allowed to criticise him.

Cultural relativism, I spit on ye.

They don't to you.
But you make a too broad asumption if you think that everyone has to share your values.

Heck, I would probably have done the same as the klingon leader and why not?

I can still voice my concerns, can't I? Or is that too not politically correct enough for you?

Nitpicking are you. Listen, who cares about what the name of the guy is.
The point remains.

I care. Please don't force your carelessness on me, that's politically incorrect.

The guy has different cultural values than those we are used to. No one is making you like them. And sure, to us he might look like a complete monster. But in the scope of his character it is a completely normal and expected reaction.

I consider calling him a jackass also an expected reaction from my side too. No one is making you like me.

Kythnos wrote:If valuing the lives given to give me a victory over the lives taken makes me a racist, Then I guess I will except that.

What's that? A Zen koan?

You are standing in the background watching this scene unfold. Your left arm is in a sling and you have a bandage covering your left side of your face from damages incurred during the battle. You have lost friends, relatives over 90% of your graduating class and maybe even your home world to the war. To say that you helped to pay for this win with your own blood is not a fallacy.
So how do YOU feel when your leaders are mourning the death of the enemy? The Enemy that so many died to defeat? How much do they value the price of that victory?

Google "Appeal to Emotion".

Metahive wrote: Jackass attitudes and practises do not suddenly become beyond reproach just because they come under the umbrella of "culture". Also, look a few pages back, I started this because Sea Trooper thought it was "sanctimonous" to not celebrate over the corpses of massacred civilians, but maybe he comes from a culture that values bloodthirsty vindictiveness too and I am therefore not allowed to criticise him.

Bullshit. Go back and read my post again and you'll note that the example I gave was of Tommies pleased to have reached the end of a conflict still alive and in one fucking piece. I said nothing about glorying in dead Argentines, you one-dimensional freak!

The debate way back then, having evolved somewhat since, was not restricted solely to a single scene in a single episode. We were discussing the entire arc of the Dominion War, and how Sisko would and could do what was necessary but then had to lecture on about it. Yes, I used the drama inherent in the immediate post-war scene on Cardassia Prime, but really only to highlight an attitude apparent throughout the arc. I can't even call it hypocrisy on Sisko's part, as he recognised when he crossed the line and called himself on it pretty much every time he had to do something questionable.

You want an example? How about the cloaked minefield laid at the wormholes mouth. Mines noone could get through to warn the other side about, meaning that anyone coming through from the far side (not necessary only Dominion ships) would hit with no warning. I'd assumed that a survivor coming through the wormhole must have eventually gotten back to pass a warning, but we never saw how many were lost until then. Also, and I'm hazy on the time-lines here, but had war actually been declared when this minefield was laid? Or had Sisko ordered it done before actual combat operations had begun? From my admittedly vague memory, the laying of this minefield was what caused the Car/Dom to attack and capture DS9, and turn tensions into a hot war.

Hey, midshipman! I told you already back then that your comparison was bull due to a rather obvious difference. The end of the Falkland War didn't involve mass-murdered civilians and british officers celebrating right in the middle of a killing field. A better comparison are all those german civilians murdered by the SS and the SA in the waning days of the Third Reich for "lack of moral". There, is this imagery worthy to have a drink to?
And o what now, mining an enemy chokepoint equals genocide? Or why do you try to backhandedly pin some sort of hypocrisy on Sisko? Here's the number of reported deaths due to Sisko's minefield: 0. Go and try your best to inflate that into something equaling the Dominion massacre of cardassian civilians.
You might also remember that the Dominion was the clear aggressor or have you forgotten that one of its agents attempted to blow up the entire bajoran system with a sunbuster? I'd say that's a way more aggravating charge than closing off a chokepoint with invisible mines.

Jackass attitudes and practises do not suddenly become beyond reproach just because they come under the umbrella of "culture". Also, look a few pages back, I started this because Sea Trooper thought it was "sanctimonous" to not celebrate over the corpses of massacred civilians, but maybe he comes from a culture that values bloodthirsty vindictiveness too and I am therefore not allowed to criticise him.

Of course not.

For some reason, I thought you were arguing that it was bad writing on the part of the ones that made the show.
Hence all my talk about how it is in character.

In other words, congratulations to me for missing the point.

Metahive wrote:Hey, midshipman! I told you already back then that your comparison was bull due to a rather obvious difference. The end of the Falkland War didn't involve mass-murdered civilians and british officers celebrating right in the middle of a killing field. A better comparison are all those german civilians murdered by the SS and the SA in the waning days of the Third Reich for "lack of moral". There, is this imagery worthy to have a drink to?

Nope, I'd probably throw up. Yet again, you've ignored and twisted my point. In the quote you believe means I think Sisko should have been celebrating with Martok, I was actually pointing out that they'd won this battle and lived through it, yet Sisko and cronies seemed far more interested to showing how much more enlightened they were than the Klingons.
Might I also note that the brutal JemHadar slaughter had also been stopped? Winning that battle, surviving the last few days AND stopping an attempt at genocide are all very good reasons for an emotional response. Yet what do we see Sisko and co doing?

And o what now, mining an enemy chokepoint equals genocide? Or why do you try to backhandedly pin some sort of hypocrisy on Sisko? Here's the number of reported deaths due to Sisko's minefield: 0. Go and try your best to inflate that into something equaling the Dominion massacre of cardassian civilians.

Again, that isn't what I said. Was that an enemy chokepoint, or a narrow passage through international waters? The wormhole acts much as any of the oceanic narrows in RL, such as the Straits of Magellan, the Malacca Straits, and so on. We don't seen Dominion vessels using it any more than the Straits of Hormuz only sees Iranian warships. At the time Sisko had excellent reasons to mine the wormhole, and he did what was pragmatically necessary, but he was not mining a declared enemy's national harbours or passages through their national space.

You might also remember that the Dominion was the clear aggressor or have you forgotten that one of its agents attempted to blow up the entire bajoran system with a sunbuster? I'd say that's a way more aggravating charge than closing off a chokepoint with invisible mines.

Yep, the attempted destruction of the entire system (had it come off) would indeed have been a more than sufficient casus belli. Is that now the minimum limit? I won't declare war on anyone who hasn't at least tried to murder millions of the civilians under my protection?
Mining that wormhole was a clear and direct act of war against the Dominion, never mind the non-Dominion species we had nearly 2 seasons of seeing come through it. An act made with no declaration, nor do I recall any approvals coming from the Federation Council for this. The closest analogy I can think of to this would have been a single USN ship choosing to mine the GIUK gap because the Soviets were busily building themselves a blue-water navy.
Again, Sisko did what needed to be done in the context of the story. It just jars when the fellow spends so much of his time moralising at people.
Oh, and invisible mines? How does not being able to see what kills you make it any better?

Ahoy, Midshipman.

SeaTrooper wrote:Nope, I'd probably throw up. Yet again, you've ignored and twisted my point. In the quote you believe means I think Sisko should have been celebrating with Martok, I was actually pointing out that they'd won this battle and lived through it, yet Sisko and cronies seemed far more interested to showing how much more enlightened they were than the Klingons. Might I also note that the brutal JemHadar slaughter had also been stopped? Winning that battle, surviving the last few days AND stopping an attempt at genocide are all very good reasons for an emotional response. Yet what do we see Sisko and co doing?

Or you know, they just might not have Vlad III Tepes' stomach and be able to dine amidst a field of corpses.



I admit I most probably couldn't. However, we do see them celebrating their victory a bit later, don't we? So what's the fuss about?

Again, that isn't what I said. Was that an enemy chokepoint, or a narrow passage through international waters? The wormhole acts much as any of the oceanic narrows in RL, such as the Straits of Magellan, the Malacca Straits, and so on. We don't seen Dominion vessels using it any more than the Straits of Hormuz only sees Iranian warships. At the time Sisko had excellent reasons to mine the wormhole, and he did what was pragmatically necessary, but he was not mining a declared enemy's national harbours or passages through their national space.

Woa, woa, slow down there buddy. We don't see the Dominion using it all that often? Have you even watched A Call to Arms all that diligently? There it's established the Dominino has been sending through warships, troops and material non-stop since Cardassia joined their ranks. It might be a bit worrying that a power that just tried to snuff out the entire bajoran system is building up such a large military presence.

Yep, the attempted destruction of the entire system (had it come off) would indeed have been a more than sufficient casus belli. Is that now the minimum limit? I won't declare war on anyone who hasn't at least tried to murder millions of the civilians under my protection?

Aroo? What are you talking about?

Mining that wormhole was a clear and direct act of war against the Dominion, never mind the non-Dominion species we had nearly 2 seasons of seeing come through it. An act made with no declaration, nor do I recall any approvals coming from the Federation Council for this. The closest analogy I can think of to this would have been a single USN ship choosing to mine the GIUK gap because the Soviets were busily building themselves a blue-water navy.

Let's not forget who actually did fire the first few unprovoked shots at whom, you'll surely remember this, won't you?

Again, Sisko did what needed to be done in the context of the story. It just jars when the fellow spends so much of his time moralising at people.
Oh, and invisible mines? How does not being able to see what kills you make it any better?

Like when? I don't count not drinking while standing on a killing field "moralising".

Metahive wrote:Let's not forget who actually did fire the first few unprovoked shots at whom, you'll surely remember this, won't you?

That wasn't unprovoked. The Dominion had relayed to the crew on DS9 that they considered the encroachment of their territory by people from the Alpha Quadrant as provocative, and gave them a warning. They even said that further interference in the Gamma Quadrant - as defined by the bare minimum of entering the 'anomaly' to go to the other side - would not be tolerated. Starfleet decided they wouldn't play ball - hell even Dax told the Jem'hadar dude that nothing will stop Starfleet from exploring the Gamma Quadrant - and so sent in one of the most powerful class of starship they have at their disposal. A move you can only describe as gunboat diplomacy.

The Dominion are the bad guys so it's a hard to actually sympathise with their position, but treating the matter objectively and ignoring their chosen response to it, they're completely right. Settling a colony in someone's territory can be, and has in the past, been construed as an act of war (just ask the Palestinians that) and I'm pretty sure sending heavily armed 'science ships' through your backyard on 'fact finding missions of exploration' could easily send the wrong message - two things which had already occurred in the show up to that point. Whatever you can say about the Dominion, calling what happened to the Odyssey as unprovoked isn't true.

Wait a moment, how can it be an intrusion by the Federation when the Dominion so utterly failed to actually demark its territory? They could have put a buoy or beacon there to transmit that message, but no, their first act was to act as aggresively as possible out of the blue, even setting up a treacherous scheme involving a Vorta playing fake-fugitive to spy on them. That all sounds like a setup to me with the goal to intimidate and humiliate the Federation. That the Federation reacted by sending a war-capable ship to free their personnel that had been kidnapped without warning isn't all that insensitive when dealing with such bullies.

If the Dominion had transmited something to the effect of "Systems XYZ are claimed by the Dominion, intruders beware" first, you might have had a point.

Stofsk wrote:

Metahive wrote:Let's not forget who actually did fire the first few unprovoked shots at whom, you'll surely remember this, won't you?

That wasn't unprovoked. The Dominion had relayed to the crew on DS9 that they considered the encroachment of their territory by people from the Alpha Quadrant as provocative, and gave them a warning. They even said that further interference in the Gamma Quadrant - as defined by the bare minimum of entering the 'anomaly' to go to the other side - would not be tolerated. Starfleet decided they wouldn't play ball - hell even Dax told the Jem'hadar dude that nothing will stop Starfleet from exploring the Gamma Quadrant - and so sent in one of the most powerful class of starship they have at their disposal. A move you can only describe as gunboat diplomacy.

The Dominion are the bad guys so it's a hard to actually sympathise with their position, but treating the matter objectively and ignoring their chosen response to it, they're completely right. Settling a colony in someone's territory can be, and has in the past, been construed as an act of war (just ask the Palestinians that) and I'm pretty sure sending heavily armed 'science ships' through your backyard on 'fact finding missions of exploration' could easily send the wrong message - two things which had already occurred in the show up to that point. Whatever you can say about the Dominion, calling what happened to the Odyssey as unprovoked isn't true.

I'd say it was, very much so.

They didn't show ANY claim to the space around the wormhole for two YEARS. Not a ship, not a navigation marker, not a transmission, NOTHING. Even when the Federation and other powers were interacting with the local races (including at LEAST one MEMBER of the Dominion!) in that timeframe, even after they set up a colony on the far side, they said nothing and did nothing. They had EVERY opportunity to say 'hey fuck off, this is our space', let alone through their representatives let the Federation even know they EXISTED...but they didn't.

Instead they waited two years, then blew the New Bajor colony and any ships still in the Gamma Quadrent away, kidnapped Sisko and his group and went to DS9, almost gleefully saying 'stay out'.

You honestly can't say the Federation at any point in time above provoked the Dominion when they didn't even know the Dominion existed, let alone because the Dominion clearly went out of their way to stay in the shadows and observe before jumping out and opening fire. At the same time, their actions in 'The Jem'Hadar' prior to the Odyssey being sent in were far FAR more provoking to the Federation then vice versa. Hell, they more or less declared war.

Now in that sense, the Odyssey was a legitimate target, the Jem'Hadar had given warnings and the Federation ignored them, or more accurately, they accepted the risk of launching a recon and recovery mission into the Gamma Quadrent, and lost a Galaxy Class Starship to superior enemy forces. But its a HELL of a thing to say the Federation was provoking the Dominion in this situation, and not vice versa.

And of course, post event analysis would rather clearly show that the Dominion had been watching all this activity quite closely and finally acted as part of their plan to attack the Alpha Quadrent, not keep the Alpha Quadrent out of the Gamma Quadrent.

Metahive wrote:Wait a moment, how can it be an intrusion by the Federation when the Dominion so utterly failed to actually demark its territory?

How do you know they 'utterly failed' to mark their territory? The Ferengi found out about the Dominion by actually talking to one of the client races of it, the Karemma.

If the Dominion had transmited something to the effect of "Systems XYZ are claimed by the Dominion, intruders beware" first, you might have had a point.

The same thing happened in TOS in the episode 'Arena' and Kirk immediately backtracked on his position early in the show when he was mad as hell and wanted to show the Gorn you don't mess with humans, and it turned out that the outpost which was destroyed was in Gorn territory. Instead of acting butthurt about it, Kirk instead went '...Holy shit, I never considered that possibility.'

Chris OFarrell wrote:I'd say it was, very much so.

Well I'd say you're wrong, very much so.

They didn't show ANY claim to the space around the wormhole for two YEARS. Not a ship, not a navigation marker, not a transmission, NOTHING.

I don't know why there should be. If you're reasonable, sure, it makes sense, we saw that in TOS. But we also saw people who preferred to be silent, who preferred to be in the shadows or keep their nature secret. But if someone blunders into your backyard, do you go 'well shit maybe he didn't see the fence around my backyard so I'll let him be'? Maybe you would because you're mellow but other people are assholes when it comes to this kind of shit.

Even when the Federation and other powers were interacting with the local races (including at LEAST one MEMBER of the Dominion!) in that timeframe, even after they set up a colony on the far side, they said nothing and did nothing. They had EVERY opportunity to say 'hey fuck off, this is our space', let alone through their representatives let the Federation even know they EXISTED...but they didn't.

Yes, they did. That was what happened in 'The Jem'hadar'. They came in to DS9 and said 'Hey, this is our territory, you've settled a colony in there, you've sent unauthorised ships through the anomaly, these ships have been poking around our backyard, contacting our member races and doing all sorts of things, we consider this to be an act of hostility. You will cease your ventures through our territory, or face the consequences.' That starfleet chose to ignore this ultimatum isn't really the issue, the fact is they did give a warning. Making what happened to the Odyssey not unprovoked.

Remember, the claim was that it was 'unprovoked' not that it was unjustified. I don't think the Dominion's actions showed them in a good light, nor that they were justified in doing it, I'm very much of the opinion that one should try diplomacy as a method of conflict resolution not the sword and spear, but claiming that it was unprovoked is nonsense when the Dominion representative to DS9 told them just how provoked they fucking were, and they proved it later in the episode how they felt about the matter.

You honestly can't say the Federation at any point in time above provoked the Dominion when they didn't even know the Dominion existed, let alone because the Dominion clearly went out of their way to stay in the shadows and observe before jumping out and opening fire. At the same time, their actions in 'The Jem'Hadar' prior to the Odyssey being sent in were far FAR more provoking to the Federation then vice versa. Hell, they more or less declared war.

It turns out sending heavily armed ships on supposed peaceful exploration can also be and was construed as an act of war by the Dominion. Settling a planet in their territory is even worse, and probably was the straw the broke the camel's back.

who knew *I'm a smarmy asshole*

The problem here is that the Dominion are clearly the bad guys, and the Federation (and those poor widdle Bajorans abloo bloo) are the good guys. But either this was a massively clever thing the writers did or they were just trolling, because as far as I'm concerned the Dominion were provoked. Hell Dax's attitude in that scene was really revealing - the Jem'hadar had just gotten through telling them what the score is, what the situation would be if they chose to ignore the Dominion's warning, and she pipes up and says 'You're mistaken if you think that detaining Commander Sisko will prevent Starfleet from exploring the Gamma Quadrant.' Like, what? What the fuck? Poke the tiger and don't be surprised if it fucking rears up and kills you.

Now in that sense, the Odyssey was a legitimate target, the Jem'Hadar had given warnings and the Federation ignored them, or more accurately, they accepted the risk of launching a recon and recovery mission into the Gamma Quadrent, and lost a Galaxy Class Starship to superior enemy forces. But its a HELL of a thing to say the Federation was provoking the Dominion in this situation, and not vice versa.

Why? What is this, some kind of 'Federation exceptionalism'? Like I said above, a virtually identical situation cropped up in TOS, and there Kirk recognised that if what the Gorn said was true, then what happened on Cestus 3 wasn't an unprovoked massacre, but the Gorn sincerely believing they were defending themselves.

Yeah ok, we know that the Dominion is a bunch of fucking evil assholes bent on Galactic Domination, but we didn't know that right then did we? These guys were new to us, as viewers, and to the characters, who aside from Quark and a couple other hints in season two, were all surprised to see these bad guys come out from nowhere. Indeed, what makes them villainous is not the legitimacy of their complaints but their chosen response to it. The response makes sense if the Dominion knew more about the Federation and the Alpha Quadrant than vice versa, and given what we know about the Founders being xenophobic shitbags. But the actual complaint - don't send your ships into our territory, don't settle colonists on our fucking planets - actually is a reasonable one. Even if nobody knew about the Dominion, and the Dominion didn't advertise their presence, that doesn't actually make those violations correct - it just makes them mistakes born from ignorance.

And of course, post event analysis would rather clearly show that the Dominion had been watching all this activity quite closely and finally acted as part of their plan to attack the Alpha Quadrent, not keep the Alpha Quadrent out of the Gamma Quadrent.

Well obviously, because like I said the Dominion are the Bad Guys and we're not supposed to root for them. However I hear all the time that DS9 is supposed to be about 'shades of grey' and 'moral ambiguity' and shit like that. Why the fuck would we be so quick to condemn the Dominion for things which, in the real world, have been seen as provocative before?

Stofsk wrote:How do you know they 'utterly failed' to mark their territory? The Ferengi found out about the Dominion by actually talking to one of the client races of it, the Karemma.

Were they given any starcharts with the Dominion territory demarked in it? Where they given any coordinates as to what space the Dominion considers its own? If not that's worthless information. That's like being somewhere in the wilderness on the North American continent and being told nothing but that there's such a thing as the US.

The same thing happened in TOS in the episode 'Arena' and Kirk immediately backtracked on his position early in the show when he was mad as hell and wanted to show the Gorn you don't mess with humans, and it turned out that the outpost which was destroyed was in Gorn territory. Instead of acting butthurt about it, Kirk instead went '...Holy shit, I never considered that possibility.'

After he beat the shit out of the Gorn captain responsible and why is it so unsensible to demand that people who appreciate their privacy to actually tell others where their personal bubble starts anyway? Heck, reptiles that feel threatened usually don't attack unless you actually do trod on or corner them in some way, why should the Gorn be left off for having even less sense than his more animalistic brethren?

Metahive wrote:

Stofsk wrote:How do you know they 'utterly failed' to mark their territory? The Ferengi found out about the Dominion by actually talking to one of the client races of it, the Karemma.

Were they given any starcharts with the Dominion territory demarked in it? Where they given any coordinates as to what space the Dominion considers its own? If not that's worthless information. That's like being somewhere in the wilderness on the North American continent and being told nothing but that there's such a thing as the US.

So what? If I was in the middle of nowhere in some part of the American wilderness, I would still be in America and subject to its laws even if I was not aware of it.

Furthermore if I start up a colony somewhere in the middle of America, and armed my settlers with weapons, should I really be surprised and cry 'foul!' when the FBI come knocking? 'But I didn't know about you guys or that I'm not allowed to do this!' It turns out ignorance isn't an excuse. But that's directly analogous to the New Bajor colony; they didn't know about the Dominion having territory there, but they assumed it was unclaimed, and then they armed their settlers. Hell the Jem'hadar captain even commented on how well they fought for a supposedly spiritual people, with a pissed off no-nonsense look on his face.

The same thing happened in TOS in the episode 'Arena' and Kirk immediately backtracked on his position early in the show when he was mad as hell and wanted to show the Gorn you don't mess with humans, and it turned out that the outpost which was destroyed was in Gorn territory. Instead of acting butthurt about it, Kirk instead went '...Holy shit, I never considered that possibility.'

After he beat the shit out of the Gorn captain responsible and why is it so unsensible to demand that people who appreciate their privacy to actually tell others where their personal bubble starts anyway? Heck, reptiles that feel threatened usually don't attack unless you actually do trod on or corner them in some way, why should the Gorn be left off for having even less sense than his more animalistic brethren?

Because some people have different thresholds for tolerance. Some people will attack at the slightest provocation, other people are mellow and won't raise a fist in anger. If you're going to be diplomatic, you need to try and understand that some people come from wide walks of life which may not conform to what you'd expect. Kirk didn't even consider the possibility that the at the time unknown ship acted reasonably, or under provocation. Spock pointed out that there may be other possibilities, there were even hints at there being 'alien signals detected in that region' and so on, but Kirk shot him down and said 'No, there is only one possibility - this is a prelude to invasion.'

The point of the whole episode was to show that there is often more than meets the eye to matters like this. There are two sides to a story, and Kirk realised he was wrong. It was the reason for why he decided to spare the Gorn captain his life. Hell even McCoy on the bridge pondered that when they heard the Gorn captain shout out how they were in their space.

Stofsk wrote:So what? If I was in the middle of nowhere in some part of the American wilderness, I would still be in America and subject to its laws even if I was not aware of it.

That's why american territory is actually demarked in a way that every civilized person can figure out where its boundaries are.

Furthermore if I start up a colony somewhere in the middle of America, and armed my settlers with weapons, should I really be surprised and cry 'foul!' when the FBI come knocking? 'But I didn't know about you guys or that I'm not allowed to do this!' It turns out ignorance isn't an excuse. But that's directly analogous to the New Bajor colony; they didn't know about the Dominion having territory there, but they assumed it was unclaimed, and then they armed their settlers. Hell the Jem'hadar captain even commented on how well they fought for a supposedly spiritual people, with a pissed off no-nonsense look on his face.

Would the FBI let you knowingly set up your colony for two years and then suddenly come out of the woodworks and shoot everyone in it? I thought even the US are above that, they at least would give them a warning upon detection with a demand to leave or knuckle under.
Also, being armed on an heretofore unexplored planet isn't a sign of aggressiveness but of caution.

Because some people have different thresholds for tolerance. Some people will attack at the slightest provocation, other people are mellow and won't raise a fist in anger. If you're going to be diplomatic, you need to try and understand that some people come from wide walks of life which may not conform to what you'd expect. Kirk didn't even consider the possibility that the at the time unknown ship acted reasonably, or under provocation. Spock pointed out that there may be other possibilities, there were even hints at there being 'alien signals detected in that region' and so on, but Kirk shot him down and said 'No, there is only one possibility - this is a prelude to invasion.'

Tell you what, territorial animals clearly mark their territory so they don't have to constantly fight off unwitting intruders and only need to take on those who do mean business. If a supposedly advanced race doesn't even manage to think that far they frankly deserve all the inconvenience that's coming with such stupidly and irrationally aggressive demeanor. A rattlesnake acts more prudently for fuck's sake!

The point of the whole episode was to show that there is often more than meets the eye to matters like this. There are two sides to a story, and Kirk realised he was wrong. It was the reason for why he decided to spare the Gorn captain his life. Hell even McCoy on the bridge pondered that when they heard the Gorn captain shout out how they were in their space.

It's conflict for conflict's sake. I call that crap writing.