Galactic Empire vs. Galactic Empire

[KlavoHunter]

Yeah - there is no real problem with individual ships turning about. The problem comes when you are turning an ENTIRE FLEET of THOUSANDS of ships, and making sure they're lined up so they're not all accidentally shooting each other, etc etc...

[Vympel]

Yeah - there is no real problem with individual ships turning about. The problem comes when you are turning an ENTIRE FLEET of THOUSANDS of ships, and making sure they're lined up so they're not all accidentally shooting each other, etc etc...

And the good Admirals (i.e. pretty much everyone who survives season 1 of the series) can pull off those fleet maneuvers pretty well (though if there's a debacle colliding ships and shit is the rsult). Turning tail and pretending to run and then coming about to counter attack is after all a standard tactic. But in any event, a B5 fleet trying to flank a LOGH fleet would be a big joke. "Oh no, there are thirty thousand ships firing on our flank, we are doomed .... errr ... wait ... no, its just thirty. Sorry." Just the average Commodore or Rear Admiral on that side of the fleet, commanding a relatively small force, would be required to react.

[Stark]

What, in terms of your usual space battle? Why? Leaving aside that the average single LOGH fleet is probably bigger than every single fleet of the major powers combined, I'm not sure there's any evidence that the average GE or FPA warship takes much longer to turn than a B5 ship.

Their formation strength is based on facing; hyperspace means they will never be facing the right way. If the numbers disparity is large enough B5 won't be able to win, but it'd be hilarious to watch. Tonnage loss ratios would be through the roof, unless the GE fighters are in the right place to intercept. The neat ranks of LoGH fleets would be a giant target for even a whitestar coming out of hyperspace in the middle, and any attempt to turn the main guns on them would simply shoot their own guys. It'd make a great screensaver.

[Uraniun235]

That's true, they're not going to be able to bring the full weight of the fleet's firepower against marauding White Stars within the fleet formation. That doesn't leave the ships totally defenseless though; most of the heavier warships have gun ports along the sides in addition to the heavy forward batteries, and nearby ships behind the victims might be able to bring their forward guns to bear in time. I would imagine they'd have the Valkyries out in force not long after they found themselves in a point-blank knife fight. Even the entire White Star force would need some time to take apart an entire fleet formation.

It would probably make for a more interesting scenario to watch if a small component of a fleet (a division? formation? squadron? not sure what the precise term would be) were to be transplanted into B5, rather than an entire expeditionary force.

[Vympel]

Their formation strength is based on facing; hyperspace means they will never be facing the right way. If the numbers disparity is large enough B5 won't be able to win, but it'd be hilarious to watch. Tonnage loss ratios would be through the roof, unless the GE fighters are in the right place to intercept. The neat ranks of LoGH fleets would be a giant target for even a whitestar coming out of hyperspace in the middle, and any attempt to turn the main guns on them would simply shoot their own guys. It'd make a great screensaver.

My B5 is rusty (I haven't run through the show in some 3-4 years or so) but I'm not sure many battles have been decided by the creative use of hyperspace so they can position / reposition themselves to their advantage, with the obvious exception of simple maneuvers like the Battle of the Line (i.e. the Minbari ships jumping in and destroying Earth ships as a result). Is there any evidence they have the accuracy and reaction time to even decide to jump in so they can position themselves correctly, on a repeatable basis?

For that matter, Reinhard and Yang's men are not the kind of people who would stick to ossified, obsolete fleet formations designed for battling peer forces when faced with these sorts of attacks - they'd adapt their formations accordingly. Pound for pound my truthy-gut says there's not much difference between a LOGH ship and a B5 ship, after all - with the big exception of LOGH ships having 'true' shields, that is.

EDIT: as to the Valkyrie fighters - cruisers, battleships and (of course) carriers all have their own embarked fighters. So long as they stay close, they would make marauding White Stars think twice. Also, Imperial gunboats aren't sluggish - we've seen them blast past larger ships on firing runs much as a Valkyrie or Spartanian would.

It would probably make for a more interesting scenario to watch if a small component of a fleet (a division? formation? squadron? not sure what the precise term would be) were to be transplanted into B5, rather than an entire expeditionary force.

I think the smallest units are those led by Commodores - Mittermeyer and Reuental at the Sixth Battle of Iserlohn each had 160 or so ships (mainly gunboats and missile ships, but I definitely see other battleships there as well) under their command (Gaiden Season 1, A Hundred Billion Stars arc). Though there are probably larger forces lead by commodores too, since Rear Admirals command significantly larger forces - at the same battle Reinhard was commanding a fleet of 2,000 ships. Normally inconsequential, in LOGH terms

[Stark]

Sure, their ships generally take too long to recharge their drives to be usable tactically (except the Minbari, but I don't really remember either). This is against a bunch of guys who have spent their entire cultural military history lining up and trying to envelop or turn the enemy with ships loaded with firecrackers and firing tactics like the Napoleonic wars. Saying 'I like Reinhardt he's pretty smart' doesn't change the fact that B5 fighting the way B5 has in the past is going to rape LoGH fighting the way they do in the past.

LoGH ships are shown individually being pretty agile, but this is just going to be another wall-o-ships fight until its too late. LoGH is just lucky B5's yields ARE so low, or they wouldn't have a chance even with 100:1 ratios. B5's arguably a pretty fair match for them, given their 'oh noez two whole megatons' thing.

[Vympel]

Sure, their ships generally take too long to recharge their drives to be usable tactically (except the Minbari, but I don't really remember either). This is against a bunch of guys who have spent their entire cultural military history lining up and trying to envelop or turn the enemy with ships loaded with firecrackers and firing tactics like the Napoleonic wars. Saying 'I like Reinhardt he's pretty smart' doesn't change the fact that B5 fighting the way B5 has in the past is going to rape LoGH fighting the way they do in the past.

Why? All B5 fighting is a general pew pew random melee, and with the exception of the White Star fleet, by overwhelmingly big ships that are just as sluggish and maneuverable as your LOGH ship of the line. How does this give them an advantage enough to constitute "rape"? Further, you're ignoring just why LOGH ships fight in those formations in the first place - because they're fighting at ridiculously extreme ranges. Ship for ship, there is absolutely no clear advantage that B5 has. The White Stars? So they've got some (relatively) fast and maneuverable ships. It's not anything the LOGH-verse hasn't seen before. Its like you think that all these big B5 ships will just jump in on a big wall's flank (why its arrayed in a big wall when it doesn't expect to fight a big wall is unstated) and that the LOGH fleet will just sit there, passively, whilst they shoot at it. In reality, any element of the fleet can turn just as quickly as a B5 ship and respond. Not to mention its bullshit to assume they can just jump in on the flanks every single time, as if they somehow have perfect intelligence on the enemy's dispositions.

[Stark]

Well aside from no-numbers (which I'm certainly not going ot produce either, lol) simply arriving out of position is going to cause serious problems, and unless their fighters can kill B5 caps (which isn't impossible) I think LoGH would be totally fucked. Without their small profile aimed at the enemy and their main guns bearing, they get raped, as seen in pretty much every LoGH battle ever, and that won't happen ever against B5. Even Narn ships can charge up to leave again in a few minutes tops, and doing so would make them totally invincible.

Of course, given the ludicrous numbers disparity B5 would probably eventually run out of ships, but the tens of millions of LoGH losses would be fucking hilarious, even better if they use their hardly-ever-used BVR capability from behind. God help them if they actually side with the FP; the GE would probably be totally doomed.

The only reason I mentioned B5 is because they have shit yields too, and yet their FTL gives them a massive advantage. This was meant to illustrate that LoGH's manner of combat is totally informed by their drive limitations and that essentially anyone with FTL and comparable guns would totally ruin them. I don't really want to talk about B5 because they're poo.

[Vympel]

Well aside from no-numbers (which I'm certainly not going ot produce either, lol)

Just assume they're gun-for-gun generally the same, its more fun that way.

simply arriving out of position is going to cause serious problems, and unless their fighters can kill B5 caps (which isn't impossible) I think LoGH would be totally fucked. Without their small profile aimed at the enemy and their main guns bearing, they get raped, as seen in pretty much every LoGH battle ever

That would be against massive enemy fleets catching their flanks with huge surprise fire, and even then, the battle is never, by any means, over as a result. And there's no difference between their side facing guns and main guns, with the obvious exception that there are simply more guns facing forward.

and that won't happen ever against B5.

That's just not true. You're talking as if the ships are incapable of turning to face their attackers. The maneuverability of their main ships are about the same, what, do we often see ships in B5 catching their enemies from the side, with the enemy being unable to respond? Of course not.

Even Narn ships can charge up to leave again in a few minutes tops, and doing so would make them totally invincible.

So in a few minutes a B5 ship is going to hyperspace in, blast away, and get no response from the enemy? At the range that B5 engages in (the merest fraction of LOGH ranges) it'd likely be impossible for your average battleship gunner on a LOGH ship to even miss.

Of course, given the ludicrous numbers disparity B5 would probably eventually run out of ships, but the tens of millions of LoGH losses would be fucking hilarious, even better if they use their hardly-ever-used BVR capability from behind.

Probably eventually? Dude, the mighty White Star fleet was according to JMS, 100 to 150 ships tops. They speak in hushed reverent tones about the 20,000 people they lost at the Battle of the Line. Every fleet they had would be wiped out in short order. Mere single Admiral expeditionary forces command fleets of 15,000 - 20,000 ships, and losing 150,000 men is hardly worth mentioning.

The only reason I mentioned B5 is because they have shit yields too, and yet their FTL gives them a massive advantage. This was meant to illustrate that LoGH's manner of combat is totally informed by their drive limitations and that essentially anyone with FTL and comparable guns would totally ruin them. I don't really want to talk about B5 because they're poo.

B5's FTL isn't a real issue if you go from the show. For some reason everyone assumes that B5 ships just jump in and out of hyperspace like warship ninjas - when does this ever happen? They jump in, and its pew pew pew until they win. Who jumps out and then jumps back in? The more I think about it, there's IIRC no reason to think B5 ships have any real time clue what realspace looks like until they come out.

And re LOGH FTL, they can and have jumped in at close range themselves. In fact, they emerge from sort of shiny-space-glowy warp much the same as any B5 ship.

[Stark]

Except even the Narn can jump in, pew pew straight away, and then be able to escape if they aren't exploded a few minutes later. And so what; SW never uses its hyperdrive agility either, remember? B5 has BVR guns too (again, even the Narn).

Frankly, this idea that turning the flank of an enemy and blowing away piles of ships isn't a big deal in LoGH is baffling to me. That's the core of their space combat tactics; turn the flanks, crush the enemy. If I was to be mendacious and say hurtful things about 'canon', LoGH has awful BVR accuracy compared to B5 and B5 can disengage at will, and they can communicate with guys in hyperspace so once the first elements engage everyone else knows what to do.

Hell, B5 battles might be mob blobs, but LoGH ship captains are literally mindless automatons who die by the thousand DOING NOTHING. Once their Total War displays show them flanked or surrounded they either die or run away. Individual ship agility is meaningless when their entire doctrine is based on formation combat; and hell, if they do turn to face incoming fire, they'll just be slicing their own guys, which as I said would make a remarkably amusing screensaver.

Actually aren't the LoGH toy soldiers ships ridiculously big?

[Vendetta]

Further, you're ignoring just why LOGH ships fight in those formations in the first place - because they're fighting at ridiculously extreme ranges.

In an initial confrontation with an unknown enemy, what are the commanders of the Imperial fleet likely to do? What will their fleet disposition look like?

Ship for ship, there is absolutely no clear advantage that B5 has.

True, but they can negate the Imperial ships' range advantage, because the B5verse ships can simply appear in combat at their preferred range, and their normal combat doctrine as far as we've seen is to do exactly that, drop out of hyperspace within their own engagement envelope and start shooting as soon as they do so.

(why its arrayed in a big wall when it doesn't expect to fight a big wall is unstated)

What does it expect to fight though? What is the likely fleet disposition of an Imperial commander when he expects a fight with an enemy of completely unknown capability

Not to mention its bullshit to assume they can just jump in on the flanks every single time, as if they somehow have perfect intelligence on the enemy's dispositions.

Signalling from realspace to hyperspace is possible, so all they need are realspace spotters to direct fleet elements waiting in hyperspace. Using ships waiting in hyperspace to jump on an enemy is also a common tactic in B5.

[Vympel]

Except even the Narn can jump in, pew pew straight away, and then be able to escape if they aren't exploded a few minutes later. And so what; SW never uses its hyperdrive agility either, remember?

Exactly, that's why noone should argue they'd use it. I don't. It's the same as that Trek warp strafing crapola. It just doesn't happen.

Frankly, this idea that turning the flank of an enemy and blowing away piles of ships isn't a big deal in LoGH is baffling to me. That's the core of their space combat tactics; turn the flanks, crush the enemy.

There's a lot more to it than that, and most battles that take place in the series simply aren't decided that way. Just because you catch an enemy's flank is not an an automatic "I Win" button. It's especially not enough of one for B5's tiny little fleets to somehow cause disproportionate losses.

If I was to be mendacious and say hurtful things about 'canon', LoGH has awful BVR accuracy compared to B5

If you did, it'd be ridiculous, since B5's "BVR" is a fraction of that of LOGH. In LOGH they engage enemy target at ranges in excess of 11 light seconds. B5 has never even come close to that. As I said, at the range B5 opens fire, they'd be the easiest shots in the world for LOGH gunners to make.

and they can communicate with guys in hyperspace so once the first elements engage everyone else knows what to do.

So why don't they ever do this in the show? I don't remember them doing this ever?

Hell, B5 battles might be mob blobs, but LoGH ship captains are literally mindless automatons who die by the thousand DOING NOTHING.

What would you like them to do in any given circumstance? Give meaningless Star Trek orders like "attack pattern gamma-3!" The show's not about captains.

Individual ship agility is meaningless when their entire doctrine is based on formation combat; and hell, if they do turn to face incoming fire, they'll just be slicing their own guys, which as I said would make a remarkably amusing screensaver.

Why would they be shooting their own guys?

[Vympel]

In an initial confrontation with an unknown enemy, what are the commanders of the Imperial fleet likely to do? What will their fleet disposition look like?

What does it expect to fight though? What is the likely fleet disposition of an Imperial commander when he expects a fight with an enemy of completely unknown capability

I'd imagine they'd determine it based on what their scout ships can see. So what? Wars aren't decided by initial confrontations. Though talking of wars is kind of redundant since B5 is so hopelessly raped by LOGH's scale as to make any talk of a war meaningless.

True, but they can negate the Imperial ships' range advantage, because the B5verse ships can simply appear in combat at their preferred range, and their normal combat doctrine as far as we've seen is to do exactly that, drop out of hyperspace within their own engagement envelope and start shooting as soon as they do so.

Except Imperial ships don't lose any effectiveness at close range. Their guns get more powerful and more accurate.

Signalling from realspace to hyperspace is possible, so all they need are realspace spotters to direct fleet elements waiting in hyperspace. Using ships waiting in hyperspace to jump on an enemy is also a common tactic in B5.

I don't remember a single battle where that happened, to be honest. And they certainly don't ever jump out after.

[Vympel]

Sorry missed this:-

Actually aren't the LoGH toy soldiers ships ridiculously big?

No, B5 ships (Earth Force, at least) are bigger than Imperial ships. The biggest Imperial ship is Garga Falmul - Lennenkampf's (unique) flagship. It's 1.2km, whereas an Omega is IIRC 1.5km.

[Gunhead]

Can B5 forces even detect enemies at 6 million+ kilometers? 6 million km is where LoGH ships start firing and it's considered an effective range. They can fire and hit targets beyond this range, it's just wasteful. They can spam missiles from even longer distances. By spam I mean 20000+ missiles from a fleet of 10000 ships and this is a low estimate.

Droning on about LoGHs forward facing weapons is silly. B5 ships, at least Narn and Earth force have their heavy firepower facing forward. What they don't have is LoGH cruisers multitude of guns facing to the side and rear. Oh, sure, they have those PPG guns, which aren't light speed weapons and I doubt their ability to hit anything that's even close to demonstrated ranges in LoGH.

No one has yet to address this either. LoGH space battles are fought in an ECM heavy enviroment. This hampers their ability to detect and hit enemy ships. However, once they have found the enemy, they can identify visually individual ships at ranges they fight in. They even at one point use morse code to relay a message to the enemy as they don't have a direct line of communication to them by other means by flashing a light at them.

Can B5 forces punch through this kind of ECM? Minbari had some sort of cloak field that prevented EA ships from locking on, but I doubt this would be enough against LoGH ships, specially since they are accustomed to ECM heavy battlefields, and their response to an unclear target is to shoot more. Which is something they have compared to B5. More.

-Gunhead

[Uraniun235]

They jump in, and its pew pew pew until they win. Who jumps out and then jumps back in?

The best example I can think of is when the Narn go to hit the Centauri supply base and they get ambushed by the Shadow ships. If I remember right they attempted to jump back to hyperspace as soon as they could recharge the jump engines, which was still at least a couple of minutes.

[Commander 598]

What would you like them to do in any given circumstance? Give meaningless Star Trek orders like "attack pattern gamma-3!" The show's not about captains.

But, Reinhard was a Captain once!

[SAMAS]

In an initial confrontation with an unknown enemy, what are the commanders of the Imperial fleet likely to do? What will their fleet disposition look like?

Keep in mind this is an educated guess.

Assuming that it's the command of a single (Rear-to) Admiral or Commodore, they likely already have recon ships in the area. If not, they'd send some. Find out the location of the enemy fleet, and send a standard-sized fleet to engage (This may depend on the fleet commander. As small as the typical B5 force is, a more arrogant commander may lowball it and send a small detachment of only a couple hundred ships) with (given how commanders in most Sci-Fi act) standard tactics, i.e. a single group at a few hundred thousand km. On the other hand, a more prudent commander may keep a second fleet (or the main part of the fleet, if he sends a single detachment) in reserve.

[Stark]

What the fuck is this 'six million kilometer' bullshit? Its long range, but the enemy ships are clearly visible.

Is there any evidence LoGH ships are actually aiming? The impression I get (especially from the Napoleon vibe) is that they're just lining up in ranks and spamming the enemy fleet volume with beams, which neatly explains why their ships are raped from the side. The idea they can hit a single target at their standard mass-fire range requires evidence, while we've seen B5 ships strike at BVR ranges on precise coordinated targets.

If they're not aiming, there's no way they'd fire through their own volume, which means any B5 force flanking them will only have to deal with >10% of them at a time (which also explains why flanking is such a big deal, since the response fucks up their formation). They'll still lose, but it'll be a hilarious slaughter. Hell, when the reports of 150 ships on the flank come in Homosexual Lounger Admiral probably won't even send any orders ... which means their ships will literally be doing nothing.

[Simon_Jester]

Further, you're ignoring just why LOGH ships fight in those formations in the first place - because they're fighting at ridiculously extreme ranges.

In an initial confrontation with an unknown enemy, what are the commanders of the Imperial fleet likely to do? What will their fleet disposition look like?

Probably like a wall, and if they didn't send ten thousand ships or whatever, they're going to get hammered.

But the sheer size of the fleets means that LoGH can afford to lose a thousand ships to superior B5 tactical mobility before realizing that they're fighting an enemy they don't need to move in lockstep against. Simply giving individual commands of 100 to 200 ships permission to turn to fire on the enemy would greatly reduce the effectiveness of a surprise hyperjump to attack range.

Flanking attacks are devastating in LoGH only when:
-They are carried home with thousand-ship or larger fleets, large enough to have enough firepower to significantly threaten the enemy main body.
-The enemy is pinned down by attacks from multiple vectors: they cannot simply shift formation as the enemy maneuvers, because they are also under attack from other directions (say, by the other half of the enemy fleet).

A flanking maneuver by a few hundred ships is kind of irrelevant in a LoGH battle. It would be trivially easy for LoGH admirals to order such a thing, since they do have subordinates capable of taking a few hundred ships off and doing something with them. I can only assume the reason it isn't done is that it wouldn't accomplish anything: you detach a few hundred ships to turn their flank, they detach a few hundred ships to fight your few hundred ships, and it cancels out.

Put another way: you compared LoGH fleet battles to Napoleonic warfare, and that's fair... but in Napoleonic war, it was relatively rare for an enemy to successfully destroy a whole army with a flanking maneuver. The target of the maneuver would not be stupid enough to keep mindlessly marching into the trap; they would detach forces, or shift facing, something.

Watching LoGH battles, it's obvious that any competent commander in that setting could do the same. Granted there are incompetent commanders, and ships often get destroyed waiting for orders from above that never come when such incompetents are in charge. But it's unreasonable to expect entire fleets to be wiped out on the assumption that no one will adapt to having a force comparable to 1% of their fleet suddenly surprise-teleport into attack range on their flank or in their midst.

What the fuck is this 'six million kilometer' bullshit? Its long range, but the enemy ships are clearly visible.

Aside from unusual cases (one fleet attacking another in planetary orbit), when the enemy ships are clearly visible, they are visible as points of light. There are a lot of reasons why a ship might be visible as a point of light from distances much greater than the 500 km or so range at which it can be seen as an extended object by the naked eye.

Say, if it has giant-ass nuclear rockets generating a plume of superheated exhaust. Or if beam weapons are pounding on its shields and radiating light in all directions.

Is there any evidence LoGH ships are actually aiming? The impression I get (especially from the Napoleon vibe) is that they're just lining up in ranks and spamming the enemy fleet volume with beams, which neatly explains why their ships are raped from the side. The idea they can hit a single target at their standard mass-fire range requires evidence, while we've seen B5 ships strike at BVR ranges on precise coordinated targets.

We've also seen thousand-ship LoGH fleets concentrate fire into very small spaces, to destroy specific ships or clusters of ships. As a general rule, we see a lot of fire missing whatever ship the camera focuses on, but there are a lot of explanations for this other than "the enemy is too fucking stupid to aim and is just firing randomly." Like shots aimed at other ships off-camera, or the ship maneuvering fast enough to throw off enemy fire control, or the ship having enough ECM to spoof enemy targeting.

Given the spacing between ships in those fleets, if they weren't aiming with some small hit probability, they'd miss their targets so often that it would be impossible to engage at all. Casualties would be negligible even during flanking attacks, because no way in hell are you going to hit a target a few milliradians across without aiming at it.

They'll still lose, but it'll be a hilarious slaughter. Hell, when the reports of 150 ships on the flank come in Homosexual Lounger Admiral probably won't even send any orders ... which means their ships will literally be doing nothing.

Just when I thought you were making an argument... damn it.

[Vympel]

What the fuck is this 'six million kilometer' bullshit? Its long range, but the enemy ships are clearly visible.

When Lutz fires on Marquis Littenheim's fleet, the distance is 11 million km. There's no evidence there that either of their fleets were clearly visible to the other. Same with the Yang Fleet vs the 11th Fleet, they fire at 6.4 light seconds, no evidence the 11th Fleet was visible.

[Stark]

Concetrating fire, when the ship is then shown hit by a single brace of fire, is express evidence of poor accuracy or volume fire. Then again, when ships are visible head on when not moving or firing from 'six million kilometers', who knows what is happening.

I have no idea where you get that this makes them stupid. If their weapons are powerful and long-range, and their mobility is poor, massing front-shielded ships in walls of spread-out ships makes sense. Its not stupid at all... unless they COULD be targeting ships for one-hit kills whenever they wanted and don't for no reason. I haven't seen a single battle where I got any impression other than 'we are hovering in front of them pew pewing for all we're worth, and once we get their flank or trick them into exposing their sides we'll win, and maybe we'll lob some rockets in there'.

Have you even watched the show? They spend fucking ages pew pewing into relatively small volumes jam-packed with multiple layers of ships. If they were using direct fire battles would be far, far shorter (and its likely that they wouldn't be conducted in this way, but whatever). It's Napoleon in space, right down to the generals on the hill sipping wine, cavalry, charges, huge casualties, etc. This isn't 'stupid' unless they actually have the capability to do all this other stuff and don't.

Frankly how anyone can look at their tactical displays (expressly showing envelopment and collapsing flanks) and imagine that they're actually aiming and flanking isn't important is bizarre to me.

Anyway, regardless of LoGH fanboys being butthurt, as I said my intention was never to engage in a debate. LoGH is tactically limited and has no FTL; this means almost anyone with FTL can beat them, even totally useless guys like B5, 10,000,000,000 ships aside.

[Vympel]

Frankly how anyone can look at their tactical displays (expressly showing envelopment and collapsing flanks) and imagine that they're actually aiming and flanking isn't important is bizarre to me.

No one said it wasn't important. That's just a strawman.

Anyway, regardless of LoGH fanboys being butthurt, as I said my intention was never to engage in a debate. LoGH is tactically limited and has no FTL; this means almost anyone with FTL can beat them, even totally useless guys like B5, 10,000,000,000 ships aside.

What the hell are you talking about? Of course they have FTL. We've seen it. How do you think Geiersburg Fortress got to Iserlohn, or Mittermeyer's fleet just magically appeared right on top of the 8th Fleet? We've seen them in and going out of FTL in the show.

Also its asinine to say "anyone with FTL can beat them - so long as I totally ignore their massive advantage that means the enemy absolutely no chance whatsoever. [and also assume the enemy fight in a way they never actually do]"

[Stark]

Sigh. I'm obviously speaking tactically, since its their lack of tactical FTL that limits them. As I said last page, its their limited agility that informs their method of combat, and I can't think of another universe that has lower agility. In particular, aren't LoGH ships shown having forward shields, but no side shields? If they aren't aiming, this explains why flanks are vulnerable (and thus their entire manner of fighting) and shows that the superior tactical and strategic agility of B5 will result in very one-sided results. Indeed, I believe the best defence LoGH has is that their formations are so wide that it probably puts neighbouring ships quickly out of the range of many B5 weapons, so each engagement will be very brief.

Amusingly, modern armies are also smaller than Napoleonic armies. Clearly the Grand Armee would conquer Europe, because having superior BVR accuracy and total tactical control through FTL is no good against numbers? It's not MY fault you forgot the Narn.

[Vympel]

Sigh. I'm obviously speaking tactically, since its their lack of tactical FTL that limits them. As I said last page, its their limited agility that informs their method of combat, and I can't think of another universe that has lower agility. In particular, aren't LoGH ships shown having forward shields, but no side shields?

No, they've got side shields too. Brunhild's shield bubble lights up when its being fired on by AAA late in the series.

If they aren't aiming, this explains why flanks are vulnerable (and thus their entire manner of fighting) and shows that the superior tactical and strategic agility of B5 will result in very one-sided results. Indeed, I believe the best defence LoGH has is that their formations are so wide that it probably puts neighbouring ships quickly out of the range of many B5 weapons, so each engagement will be very brief.

As Simon said, its ridiculous to assert they're simply not aiming. Further, the distances are huge and the targets are tiny, its not surprising that not every beam hits a target - even the smallest error in aiming would produce a huge error over those distances.

Amusingly, modern armies are also smaller than Napoleonic armies. Clearly the Grand Armee would conquer Europe, because having superior BVR accuracy and total tactical control through FTL is no good against numbers? It's not MY fault you forgot the Narn.

Re: BVR accuracy, as I said earlier, BVR for the Narn (who IIRC are the only one who have even fought at BVR, in like - one episode) is a fraction of what LOGH is capable of - the ranges the Narn want to start shooting is by comparison spitting distance.

As for FTL, aside from Simon's comments, seriously, point out to me a single time where any B5 battle was fought in terms of ships jumping in and out of FTL, always catching the enemy ships flat footed, where their weapons aren't? The fact is this never happens, its just wank. They very likely simply don't have the command and control to pull this sort of thing off, which is unsurprising given that its supposedly very easy to get turned around in hyperspace, their ability to pop out of hyperspace at an exact point is likely limited to just the general area of the battlefield.

And re: the Grand Armee and numbers, you're just taking the piss. Because B5's mighty dozen-or-so ship battle fleets (at most) vs LOGH's 15,000+ ship behemoths is directly equivalent to this situation