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Stofsk wrote:Q was the one who introduced the Federation to the Borg, the Borg didn't even know who or what the Federation was or where Earth was prior to their meeting. If he had not done so, who knows how long the Federation would have gone without meeting the Borg?

I think the Borg knew about the Federation from the episode "Neutral Zone", they had to assimilate some information from those cities. I just imagined that the Federation was not high on their priority list, in fact I always thought that the single Borg cube seen at Wolf 359 was the same first encountered.

We don't know that. They weren't cities but outposts along the neutral zone, we don't know what sort of information was available there (for all we know they were nothing more than listening posts; any data stored there would likely be compartmentalised and also easy to destroy in the event of an attack). But as I said in the next line down, I actually thought Q did humanity a favour by kicking them in their complacent ass.

Formless wrote: Actually, the real stupidity is the unstated assumption that just because there is a plan means we must give a damn about it.

It really is amazing how common this line of thinking seems to be, considering just how thoroughly it collapses under any scrutiny. I mean, it looks like you, me, and Chuck each present a relatively distinct counterpoint against it, and even one of them should be enough for a rational person to toss the idea. But then, I suppose a rational person wouldn't ever use it in the first place.

BTW, anyone else ever notice the similarities between the TNG Prime Directive and the Watchers from Marvel Comics?

Though to be fair, the Watchers were waaaaay worse. Those guys would actually sit on the sidelines while the whole universe was being destroyed. But at the same time, they somehow don't seem to have quite as much of the "holier than thou" attitude.

For a really extreme example, look no further than SG-1's ascended ancients. They would honor their non-interference law to literally self-destructive extremes. It was explained as them holding Free Will in highest regards...except they would force that law on every single non-Ori ascended showing them to be massive hypocrites.

The Prime Directive is perhaps the worst directive ever drafted. I can understand the entire point, but all they did was introduce a handicap that can drastically hinder a captain's ability to react. Example? Suppose a starship gets attacked and suffers damage, and is unable to radio home for assistance. They arrive in orbit over a planet with a primitive culture that is just sitting there, perfectly fine save for a few natural disasters here and there but overall just continuing on its way. The captain knows he needs certain supplies, and that he has certain stores in his own cargo bay that he can trade with. But the Prime Directive tells him, no, you can't trade because that's interfering. So he has to try and patch things up best he can and limp home, putting his crew in even more risk and danger just because a couple of traders might suddenly turn a small profit and get some new goods to trade.

In the David Weber novel On Basilisk Station, the Manticorian Navy maintains a station near a nature preserve they've established to protect the primitive creatures. They leave the creatures alone but maintain a station overhead to make money off the highly profitable wormhole that's there. So a perfectly normal, space-faring group of humans decided that they were going to profit off a wormhole that happened to pass through a system controlled by a primitive group. In Star Trek, the reaction would be, "No, there's a chance they might see us and think there's aliens and thus interfere with them." That's completely retarded!

Basically, you're telling us that once an alien species leaves their home planet, they're instantly ready to meet aliens? Imagine if a species developed Warp Drive and as soon as they did, a starship appeared. Before they even say a single word, you're going to terrify the shit out of the locals because one test brought down another space-faring civilization. Then you tell them welcome, we're from the Federation, we've had our eyes on you for some time but haven't bothered to tell you about ourselves until now. So... now you've got them paranoid because aliens were watching them for possibly YEARS before getting around to saying hi. So you've terrified and rendered an entire species paranoid all because you decided to hold off until they had one particular piece of technology.

Also, this plays in with the requirements to be a member of the Federation. An alien species can only join if their entire planet is under one banner, one flag. Ok, so you've just met them but they're not all one group... one nation discovered warp travel first. So what's this mean for the rest of the planet? The most advanced nation suddenly meets these aliens, and they know there's a huge military organization out there with all sorts of advanced tech but they won't share until everyone is united. Guess what I'd be doing if I were in charge? I'd begin conquering everyone in my path to try and get to that advanced tech. And the Federation will just sit there, letting it happen, because it's an INTERNAL matter. So you've taken a species that was probably a fairly benign superpower and given them a goal to obtain if they conquer all their neighbors.

So what happens when this now aggressive species applies for membership? Will the Federation give it to them on the condition they don't conquer anymore? Hey, they've got their goal, which is to get all this juicy tech. So now they have photon torpedoes, phasers, anti-matter, basically everything you'd need for a population conquered and pissed-off at their invaders, thus ensuring a healthy resistance movement. And so now what happens when portions break away and form new nations? Does the Federation interfere by sending soldiers and troops? Or does it kick the member out for no longer being united? If they get kicked out, doesn't this just leave the original superpower to grow angry and possibly commit genocide to wipe out everyone who might possibly get in the way of their having advanced technology?

The point I'm making is that even remaining out of someone's affairs and whatnot is dangerous. There's so many ways to fuck up a society even by not interfering. JUST KNOWING YOU'RE THERE CAN HAVE PROFOUND EFFECTS!

Another point would be the Klingon Civil War. Ok, so imagine that the Klingons grew more and more unstable until large chunks of the empire broke away under separate warlords. Each of them will be looking to make allies with the nearest available superpower or group that can give them a decisive advantage against his rivals. Since the Federation will remain neutral, the closest power would be the Romulans, who will certainly have no qualms about helping Klingons kill each other. And surely the Ferengi will be there to sell weapons and ships. The only way the Federation could keep the Romulans out would be to send ships whose only job would be to blockade non-Klingon ships, WHICH WOULD REQUIRE A PRESENCE IN KLINGON SPACE. Believe me, if I were engaged in a war and I knew there were ships from my so-called "allies" in orbit, I'd be pissed if they didn't step in to help.

Given the size of the Klingon Empire, you certainly don't want something that large to grow unstable. The Romulans and any other race would quickly try and jump in to seize territory, and what comes out will instantly be hostile towards the Federation for not helping. So much so that it could spark another Klingon Cold War or worse, all-out war. Even if the Federation outnumbered what was left of the Klingon Empire, the fact of the matter is that the Federation WOULD take losses, which in turn weakens the Federation to some degree. And the possibility of dangerous elements growing inside the power vacuum left by an entire empire's collapse would just open up Federation frontier worlds to a rain of shit that lasts for decades, at the very least.

I'm not saying that the Federation has to jump in, but they need to look past the Prime Directive to the consequences inaction itself causes. There's a song I can't remember that has lyrics that go, "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.", and that's the case here. Sometimes, inaction causes far more repercussions than action itself causes.

Destructionator XIII wrote:No need to imagine; "First Contact" TNG has exactly that happening.

It's been a while so I forgot that particular episode, but this is exactly the point. While Roddenberry and his bunch try to show the military as opposed to change and only wanting to oppose science and intellectualism, the fact of the matter is that the military has one job above all others: Defend the nation.

The fact that aliens with superior technology show up with weapons that make their own look like tinker toys, that can transport anywhere including into secure bunkers (that's bound to be their train of thought, regardless of whether it happens or not), disappear and reappear as necessary, and have been doing it for YEARS means that every single secret and device they've employed to protect their people is now useless. It was useless the second the aliens appeared.

First Contact is an episode highlighting the negative attitude the writers had for the military, while thinking that by sticking to their Prime Directive bullshit, everything would work out in the end because everyone would just shrug their shoulders and say "oh, that makes sense." Imagine how angry someone would be if the Federation shows up and offers advanced medical treatment, but they've been watching for over a year and could have easily treated a family member's disease from which they died. Are they going to shrug their shoulders and say, "Oh well, they knew what they were doing."

Also, why did that scientist only need to go up to the minister to request funding, instead of some sort of parliament or congress, some lawmaking body, to request funds? Does the minister control the purse strings of the entire government that he can fling around on a whim? What about annual budgets and research grants? Is he space Obama? Is that how things work in Star Trek? Just go up to someone and ask for money, since there is no money? It'd be like saying, here, have a few extra oxygen molecules, I don't need them.

Baffalo wrote:Basically, you're telling us that once an alien species leaves their home planet, they're instantly ready to meet aliens? Imagine if a species developed Warp Drive and as soon as they did, a starship appeared. Before they even say a single word, you're going to terrify the shit out of the locals because one test brought down another space-faring civilization. Then you tell them welcome, we're from the Federation, we've had our eyes on you for some time but haven't bothered to tell you about ourselves until now. So... now you've got them paranoid because aliens were watching them for possibly YEARS before getting around to saying hi. So you've terrified and rendered an entire species paranoid all because you decided to hold off until they had one particular piece of technology.

I think they added a few more requirements to first contact, in a few of the episodes also. But they are trying to avoid become "elitist". (Like the evil federation from David Weber's The Excalibur Alternative which abuses the "prime directive" for their own benefit)

So what happens when this now aggressive species applies for membership? Will the Federation give it to them on the condition they don't conquer anymore? Hey, they've got their goal, which is to get all this juicy tech. So now they have photon torpedoes, phasers, anti-matter, basically everything you'd need for a population conquered and pissed-off at their invaders, thus ensuring a healthy resistance movement. And so now what happens when portions break away and form new nations? Does the Federation interfere by sending soldiers and troops? Or does it kick the member out for no longer being united? If they get kicked out, doesn't this just leave the original superpower to grow angry and possibly commit genocide to wipe out everyone who might possibly get in the way of their having advanced technology?

The episode The Hunted indicates that, no, your scenario would not play out as such. The Federation evaluates applicants based on more criteria than just "one government", and has in fact rejected applicants which had experienced planetary unity for many years. I don't have the episode handy so I can't tell you what those criteria are, but I'm sure key factors include the proportion of children successfully processed by communist boarding school indoctrination camps, as well as the degree to which personal property ownership is stifled.

Additionally, the development of warp drive is the point at which the Federation can no longer control whether or not the less advanced civilization encounters aliens. That's the reason why contact becomes permissible at that point - because contact has become effectively inevitable. Better to do it while at least one side is expecting it and has prepared for it as best as they can.


The Klingon Civil War example you give doesn't entirely make sense considering that Starfleet and the Federation Council approved the dispatch of an expeditionary force* into Klingon space in order to detect and deter Romulan intervention. This was in fact a form of Federation intervention, as the Romulans would have gotten away with their plan to supply the Duras insurrection had Picard not gotten involved.

(Said expeditionary force was, despite Sela's derision, a fairly substantial commitment on the part of the Federation, considering that it represented the total effective Starfleet strength in that area.)

In fact, this approach turned out to be the better choice to make, as simply sending the fleet in to support Gowron could have led to a protracted conflict wherein the Federation was indirectly fighting the Romulan flow of supplies. Exposing the Romulan connection effectively destroyed Klingon support for the insurrection far more quickly and with much less damage to the Federation/Klingon strategic position against the Romulans.



Additionally, your "damaged starship" scenario is contrived at best. "Oh, it's really badly damaged... just enough to take out all of their FTL communications (and those on the shuttles... ) but not so much as to totally wreck or destroy it (or damage their transporter system), and it happens right next to a conveniently populated planet that just happens to have "supplies" that would be super helpful, if only it weren't for those damn liberal big gov't regulations!" The odds of such a scenario occurring are vanishingly small, so much so that it should not typically enter consideration. What kind of supplies are they going to trade for? What are they going to trade for those supplies? How disruptive is that trade going to be?

Let's say you decide you're going to exchange medical technology/information for... fuck, I don't know what we could offer a starship, let's say a few thousand tons of titanium. Who do you trade with? Suppose they start a war over who gets to trade with you. Or suppose whatever you trade them gets used by whomever you trade with to gain a strategic advantage over their neighbors.



This is not to say that the Prime Directive is always right and must be adhered to blah blah blah, or even to try and justify unnecessarily constrictive writing practices like Michael Piller was prone to do. Rather, I'm trying to point out that you might be looking at things a bit simplistically (and somewhat histrionically). You're right, as a 'sacred and inviolate rule' it stinks, and some of the writers have gone waaaaay overboard in promoting it - but a general principle of non-intervention is still not a bad idea in and of itself.

First Contact is an episode highlighting the negative attitude the writers had for the military, while thinking that by sticking to their Prime Directive bullshit, everything would work out in the end because everyone would just shrug their shoulders and say "oh, that makes sense." Imagine how angry someone would be if the Federation shows up and offers advanced medical treatment, but they've been watching for over a year and could have easily treated a family member's disease from which they died. Are they going to shrug their shoulders and say, "Oh well, they knew what they were doing."

Also, why did that scientist only need to go up to the minister to request funding, instead of some sort of parliament or congress, some lawmaking body, to request funds? Does the minister control the purse strings of the entire government that he can fling around on a whim? What about annual budgets and research grants? Is he space Obama? Is that how things work in Star Trek? Just go up to someone and ask for money, since there is no money? It'd be like saying, here, have a few extra oxygen molecules, I don't need them.

This scenario already occurs every day. Throughout the world are a number of tribes of human beings living in extreme isolation. They are almost totally ignorant of the outside world and of nearly every technological concept we take for granted, including the vast majority of medicinal knowledge. Attempts to integrate them into our society have always been disastrous. This is not to say that contact should never be made, but that there is legitimate cause to be extremely cautious in initiating contact and not for anything so brutishly simple as 'well we got some great stuff here let's just go give it to 'em so they'll live better'.


Your last remarks seem almost purposefully obtuse. To my knowledge the only space nation explicitly stated to have abandoned money is the Federation, so whining about the money issue with regard to a civilization that just barely built a warp drive seems out of place. In a wholly self-contained 44 minute story, it simplifies the script considerably to reduce the number of people, places, and events that the audience has to keep track of. And besides, it's enormously cheaper to just have the two already-budgeted guest stars talk to each other than to try and get something as large and unwieldy as a parliament portrayed, especially when we're never going to see it again. It's okay to take television production realities into consideration when you're thinking about an episode, it really is.


But seriously, dude, that was a lot of words. Did Gene Roddenberry sleep with your wife?


(Also a bit of pedantic trivia: Roddenberry probably wasn't really involved with the episode First Contact. At that point in the series he was pretty ill and did not participate much in running TNG. He may have had brief plot blurbs run by him for his approval but he certainly was not editing or rewriting scripts anymore.)

Uraniun235 wrote:

So what happens when this now aggressive species applies for membership? Will the Federation give it to them on the condition they don't conquer anymore? Hey, they've got their goal, which is to get all this juicy tech. So now they have photon torpedoes, phasers, anti-matter, basically everything you'd need for a population conquered and pissed-off at their invaders, thus ensuring a healthy resistance movement. And so now what happens when portions break away and form new nations? Does the Federation interfere by sending soldiers and troops? Or does it kick the member out for no longer being united? If they get kicked out, doesn't this just leave the original superpower to grow angry and possibly commit genocide to wipe out everyone who might possibly get in the way of their having advanced technology?

The episode The Hunted indicates that, no, your scenario would not play out as such. The Federation evaluates applicants based on more criteria than just "one government", and has in fact rejected applicants which had experienced planetary unity for many years. I don't have the episode handy so I can't tell you what those criteria are, but I'm sure key factors include the proportion of children successfully processed by communist boarding school indoctrination camps, as well as the degree to which personal property ownership is stifled.

I know you're being facetious, but one thing I remembered from DS9 was Sisko saying that 'caste-based discrimination' was totally against the Federation charter. It was in the episode 'Accession'. It's not too much of a leap to go 'any sort of discrimination' might be factors as well.

but fedz are damn dirty commies so everyone goes to reeducation camps and work in mines with bare hands

I didn't remember that episode, that's not surprising though. In a way The Hunted is kind of the same thing - here's an underclass of veterans and a government not particularly interested in trying to re-integrate them, so they just stuck them on a moon. That wasn't acceptable either.

Honestly I would imagine that present-day America would be rejected for Federation membership, and rightfully so.

Baffalo wrote:Also, this plays in with the requirements to be a member of the Federation. An alien species can only join if their entire planet is under one banner, one flag. Ok, so you've just met them but they're not all one group... one nation discovered warp travel first. So what's this mean for the rest of the planet? The most advanced nation suddenly meets these aliens, and they know there's a huge military organization out there with all sorts of advanced tech but they won't share until everyone is united. Guess what I'd be doing if I were in charge? I'd begin conquering everyone in my path to try and get to that advanced tech. And the Federation will just sit there, letting it happen, because it's an INTERNAL matter. So you've taken a species that was probably a fairly benign superpower and given them a goal to obtain if they conquer all their neighbors.

So what happens when this now aggressive species applies for membership? Will the Federation give it to them on the condition they don't conquer anymore? Hey, they've got their goal, which is to get all this juicy tech. So now they have photon torpedoes, phasers, anti-matter, basically everything you'd need for a population conquered and pissed-off at their invaders, thus ensuring a healthy resistance movement. And so now what happens when portions break away and form new nations? Does the Federation interfere by sending soldiers and troops? Or does it kick the member out for no longer being united? If they get kicked out, doesn't this just leave the original superpower to grow angry and possibly commit genocide to wipe out everyone who might possibly get in the way of their having advanced technology?

The point I'm making is that even remaining out of someone's affairs and whatnot is dangerous. There's so many ways to fuck up a society even by not interfering. JUST KNOWING YOU'RE THERE CAN HAVE PROFOUND EFFECTS!

This exact scenario happens in Starfighters of Adumar, by Aaron Allston.
Spoiler

Baffalo wrote:The Prime Directive is perhaps the worst directive ever drafted. I can understand the entire point, but all they did was introduce a handicap that can drastically hinder a captain's ability to react. Example? Suppose a starship gets attacked and suffers damage, and is unable to radio home for assistance. They arrive in orbit over a planet with a primitive culture that is just sitting there, perfectly fine save for a few natural disasters here and there but overall just continuing on its way. The captain knows he needs certain supplies, and that he has certain stores in his own cargo bay that he can trade with. But the Prime Directive tells him, no, you can't trade because that's interfering. So he has to try and patch things up best he can and limp home, putting his crew in even more risk and danger just because a couple of traders might suddenly turn a small profit and get some new goods to trade.

In the David Weber novel On Basilisk Station, the Manticorian Navy maintains a station near a nature preserve they've established to protect the primitive creatures. They leave the creatures alone but maintain a station overhead to make money off the highly profitable wormhole that's there. So a perfectly normal, space-faring group of humans decided that they were going to profit off a wormhole that happened to pass through a system controlled by a primitive group. In Star Trek, the reaction would be, "No, there's a chance they might see us and think there's aliens and thus interfere with them." That's completely retarded!

Basically, you're telling us that once an alien species leaves their home planet, they're instantly ready to meet aliens? Imagine if a species developed Warp Drive and as soon as they did, a starship appeared. Before they even say a single word, you're going to terrify the shit out of the locals because one test brought down another space-faring civilization. Then you tell them welcome, we're from the Federation, we've had our eyes on you for some time but haven't bothered to tell you about ourselves until now. So... now you've got them paranoid because aliens were watching them for possibly YEARS before getting around to saying hi. So you've terrified and rendered an entire species paranoid all because you decided to hold off until they had one particular piece of technology.

Also, this plays in with the requirements to be a member of the Federation. An alien species can only join if their entire planet is under one banner, one flag. Ok, so you've just met them but they're not all one group... one nation discovered warp travel first. So what's this mean for the rest of the planet? The most advanced nation suddenly meets these aliens, and they know there's a huge military organization out there with all sorts of advanced tech but they won't share until everyone is united. Guess what I'd be doing if I were in charge? I'd begin conquering everyone in my path to try and get to that advanced tech. And the Federation will just sit there, letting it happen, because it's an INTERNAL matter. So you've taken a species that was probably a fairly benign superpower and given them a goal to obtain if they conquer all their neighbors.

So what happens when this now aggressive species applies for membership? Will the Federation give it to them on the condition they don't conquer anymore? Hey, they've got their goal, which is to get all this juicy tech. So now they have photon torpedoes, phasers, anti-matter, basically everything you'd need for a population conquered and pissed-off at their invaders, thus ensuring a healthy resistance movement. And so now what happens when portions break away and form new nations? Does the Federation interfere by sending soldiers and troops? Or does it kick the member out for no longer being united? If they get kicked out, doesn't this just leave the original superpower to grow angry and possibly commit genocide to wipe out everyone who might possibly get in the way of their having advanced technology?

The point I'm making is that even remaining out of someone's affairs and whatnot is dangerous. There's so many ways to fuck up a society even by not interfering. JUST KNOWING YOU'RE THERE CAN HAVE PROFOUND EFFECTS!

Another point would be the Klingon Civil War. Ok, so imagine that the Klingons grew more and more unstable until large chunks of the empire broke away under separate warlords. Each of them will be looking to make allies with the nearest available superpower or group that can give them a decisive advantage against his rivals. Since the Federation will remain neutral, the closest power would be the Romulans, who will certainly have no qualms about helping Klingons kill each other. And surely the Ferengi will be there to sell weapons and ships. The only way the Federation could keep the Romulans out would be to send ships whose only job would be to blockade non-Klingon ships, WHICH WOULD REQUIRE A PRESENCE IN KLINGON SPACE. Believe me, if I were engaged in a war and I knew there were ships from my so-called "allies" in orbit, I'd be pissed if they didn't step in to help.

Given the size of the Klingon Empire, you certainly don't want something that large to grow unstable. The Romulans and any other race would quickly try and jump in to seize territory, and what comes out will instantly be hostile towards the Federation for not helping. So much so that it could spark another Klingon Cold War or worse, all-out war. Even if the Federation outnumbered what was left of the Klingon Empire, the fact of the matter is that the Federation WOULD take losses, which in turn weakens the Federation to some degree. And the possibility of dangerous elements growing inside the power vacuum left by an entire empire's collapse would just open up Federation frontier worlds to a rain of shit that lasts for decades, at the very least.

I'm not saying that the Federation has to jump in, but they need to look past the Prime Directive to the consequences inaction itself causes. There's a song I can't remember that has lyrics that go, "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.", and that's the case here. Sometimes, inaction causes far more repercussions than action itself causes.

The PD was fine as far as it went in TOS, and was not stretched to forbid all contact with non-spacefaring races. Kirk's misison in "Errand Of Mercy", on the heels of a new war witih the Klingon Empire, is to directly offer the "primitive" Organians the benefits of Federation technology and social aid to remake their whole world in exchange for setting up a naval base before the Klingons can grab the planet. More or less the same mission is on Kirk in "Friday's Child": he's there to negotiate a mining agreement with a tribal society, only to find the Klingons have an agent there also negotiating for the mineral rights. The whole "no touch under any circumstances" version of the PD, even to letting a world's entire native population die from a perfectly preventable disaster, came in with TNG and its bastard children.

We see Phlox consign an entire reasonably advanced civilization to a possible mass extinction, but I wouldn't imagine Picard or even Janeway to be such moral cowards.

And it's not as if the TOS era was perfect either in regards to preserving civilizations when Kirk's crew and their Klingon opposites were providing firearms to warring villagers (that satisfied the terms of the PD at the time) and, while well intentioned, the destruction of the admittedly oppressive Vaal in "The Apple" had the implication that the quality of life for Vaal's enslaved subjects would be much reduced after the baby got thrown out with the bathwater when Vaal (and its life extending technology) was totally destroyed. Other forms of unwarrented meddling by rogue UFP citizens led to warped, dysfunctional societies ruled over by Mobsters and Nazis, and in light of these disasters that seems like a reasonable explanation why the PD became almost religiously adhered a century later.

Big Orange wrote:We see Phlox consign an entire reasonably advanced civilization to a possible mass extinction, but I wouldn't imagine Picard or even Janeway to be such moral cowards.

Picard: Homeward. Nikolai suggested an option that would not only have saved at least one Boraalan village, but would have done so without them realising that an external agency was responsible. Picard refused, not because of issues implementing the plan, but because he considered it a violation of the PD. Given how similar the situation was to the one in Pen Pals, he probably got his knuckles rapped for saving that planet.

Janeway: Time and Again. Had the option of warning a planet's inhabitants of an approaching mass-extinction caused by their somewhat unstable power source, and explicitly banned Paris from doing so on PD grounds.

On the up side, AFAIK neither of them ever used Halabja as a guideline for their actions, unlike Sisko.

In "Time and Again", I agree that Janeway saved the planet inspite of her almost religious interpretation of the PD not because of it, but it was her crew's meddling to get her back to their timeline that caused the power core's catastrophic detonation to begin with.

Big Orange wrote:In "Time and Again", I agree that Janeway saved the planet inspite of her almost religious interpretation of the PD not because of it, but it was her crew's meddling to get her back to their timeline that caused the power core's catastrophic detonation to begin with.

So? Until it was her own neck at risk, Janeway was consistently opposed to saving the planet's civilisation, despite having the means to do so, purely on PD grounds.

Captain Seafort wrote:So? Until it was her own neck at risk, Janeway was consistently opposed to saving the planet's civilisation, despite having the means to do so, purely on PD grounds.

To begin with, and Paris called her out on it from the very start, however after getting carried away by the events of the episode she changes her tune:

Janeway then comes up with an idea saying aloud, "Wait a minute." In the present, Kes hears Janeway say this. When Kes calls out to her, Janeway can also hear Kes. Makull goes over to Janeway and asks if she has anything else to say. She, ignoring the Prime Directive, spontaneously mentions she is Captain Kathryn Janeway of the Federation starship Voyager.

In the present, Kes mentions to Chakotay that she can feel the presence of Janeway and Paris. Chakotay inquires if there is a subspace fracture present, which there is. He orders that the generator be set up.

In the past, Janeway continues to reveal information about herself, stating that she and Paris were from the future. Latika is amazed that his assumption of them was, indeed, true. She reveals to Makull that there is going to be a polaric explosion that will destroy the planet. Makull doesn't buy it, despite her explanation of how she and Paris were thrown into the past.

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