Details of Assange rape case leaked

[Todeswind]

Read the second two pages of the article.

[Edi]

This article has more substance than previous ones and Assange does look like an enormous asshat, but as Thanas said, it may boil down to a case of one person's word against another. If the allegations are true, then he is a rapist, no ifs, buts or maybes about it. Showing them conclusively true is the hard part.

[Lusankya]

Have I missed something? There is absolutely nothing new in that article. Its still just what the women claim happened. We still don't know anything. Ms Arin still destroyed evidence that would have put her honesty into question. I don't get were the "this proves he is a scumbag!!!" crowd get their information.

I said this in the other thread, but I'll say it again here: destroying the blog/twitter posts doesn't really impact that greatly on whether or not the lady is telling the truth. Quite frankly, I find the attitudes of certain people on this board to be not that much dissimilar to that of people who judge rape victims based on their attire or past sexual promiscuity. Do you know what? If I were a rape victim, then I would try to do what I could to hide things that put my honesty into question - not because I'm a liar, but because most rape claims boil down to his word versus hers. Not that I even find the so called "evidence that would have put her honesty into question" that questionable really. Hell, it Twitter had existed seven years ago, and I'd been on it, I probably would have Tweeted that my ex-boyfriend was awesome at some point after he raped me. And then after we broke up, I probably would have deleted all the posts I made about him at the same time that I got rid of everything else that reminded me of him. Shit, man. What's everyone going to make of my honesty now?

It's disgusting the way people are reading into these womens motives:

"The women only went to the police about Assange after they found out about each other - clearly they're vengeful bitches!"
Alternate explanation: the women felt unsure that anyone would believe them if they went forward, but then when they found out that someone else had a similar experience, they decided to go forward together. Which story is more likely? "Two women decide to take vengeance on a former lover by both claiming that he's a rapist" or "Two victims of sexual assault take courage from each other and go to the police together”?

"But the woman deleted her Twitter and blog posts! Clearly she's lying!"
Alternative explanation: already discussed.

"Look at the circus this has turned into. Clearly it's a conspiracy."
Alternative explanation: Aside from the fact that I doubt that even Scrooge McDuck has enough money to bribe someone into going through what these women are going through, the timing of the matter is no reason to go around accusing the women of lying. Whatever issues people may have with the way the case is being handled should go towards the appropriate parties: namely, the authorities of the various nations. Also, keep in mind that it's perfectly possible for someone to be guilty of rape while being famous at the same time.

"But Assange is the awesomest and I love him!"
Alternative explanation: Assange is obviously pretty good at manipulating people's emotions. If he wasn't, people wouldn't be going this crazy over the whole mess. People should take a step back and see how they feel about the article when they replace Assange's name with Jeb Bush or something like that.

Christ, it's almost like this story, except the title should read "Women raped and rejected by entire Western World".

[Ryan Thunder]

I'm sure their skepticism is more to do with Assange being associated with Wikileaks than with actual distrust of the women themselves, Lusankya. Think of it as a form of tribalism.

[Lusankya]

I'm sure their skepticism is more to do with Assange being associated with Wikileaks than with actual distrust of the women themselves, Lusankya. Think of it as a form of tribalism.

Except for the bit where Skoga (and others in the other thread) were questioning the women's honesty. Really, it's crap like that which makes women not want to report rapes.

In any case, tribalism is not a very intelligent thing to be engaging in. Assange isn't some all-perfect pillar of Liberty and Free Speech. He's some doofus with stupid-looking hair. People should keep that in mind before they get all hysterical.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'm sure their skepticism is more to do with Assange being associated with Wikileaks than with actual distrust of the women themselves, Lusankya.

He releases classified government documents! If that doesn't make him a virtuous person, what does?

People naturally get defensive when its people they like who are being threatened. Which is very similar to that Sweden rape case Lusychan pointed out and how the villagers shunned the girl for accusing the local golden boy. The parallels are amazing. Yes, there are differences, and the whole CIA/persecution angle of Assange makes it more believable that he's being deliberately slandered, but it's more or less the same and it's the same or similar impulses towards defending favorites and picking sides. Which is, I must admit, something I feel guilty of in regards to Assange.

Anyway, if he is guilty, Assange can get the punishment he rightfully deserves for being a rapist and a creep.

This has nothing to do with Wikileaks, the USA, or secret documents, or anything at all. This is about a man who might have sexually molested two women, and those other issues should be divorced from this fact. The fact that this has become a goddamn circus, the fact that it's a celebrity/famous person that people either love or hate, in Assange, and the fact that governments are screwing around with this, only complicates the whole matter and adds all sorts of distractions that just steer people away from the main issue - that this man, no matter who he is, who might have sexually assaulted two women.

It's too easy to get lost, and when we lose our direction, we should stick our heads out or get some distance to reorientate ourselves to see not only where we actually stand on, but where our positions are relative to these things and whatever.

As for the Wikileaks issue, my thoughts on their disclosure of secrets haven't changed and I'm just disappointed in Assange and how this whole matter was handled. And I'm also disappointed in myself for lapsing into petty stupid tribalism.

I am thankful Lusy-chan is here to slap some sense into us.

[Skgoa]

I'm sure their skepticism is more to do with Assange being associated with Wikileaks than with actual distrust of the women themselves, Lusankya. Think of it as a form of tribalism.

Except for the bit where Skoga (and others in the other thread) were questioning the women's honesty. Really, it's crap like that which makes women not want to report rapes.

OK, maybe I should restate my position: I don't know who is telling the truth and neither do you or anyone else in this thread. Lets wait for the legal process to finish.
If it weren't for all the people who claim that this somehow shows Assange's guild, I wouldn't have to constantly state that its still an ongoing investigation and there is a possibility that he did not in fact commit a crime.

[Stofsk]

the whole CIA/persecution angle of Assange makes it more believable that he's being deliberately slandered

I don't know about that, I honestly think this 'it's an international conspiracy' crap smacks of desperation on his part. His insisting that this is all some sort of plot sounds like he's reframing what this is as some kind of unwarranted persecution of him. If anything it's making him less believable. He should keep his mouth shut, stop talking to the media, and concentrate on what's going to be a lengthy legal battle. If his lawyers are worth the money he's paying them for, they would have told him this already. The fact he's still talking rubs me the wrong way.

[Molyneux]

By attacking the (alleged) victims like this, he's also intimidating others that he's done the same thing to in the past from coming forward.

If he's done it two times, he's probably done it before too. If more victims step forward, the pattern makes their collective word a lot stronger than his. But if they are afraid of being treated like dirt, they won't want to go through with the bullshit.

This is one of the reasons the Swedish government won't even consider releasing the names of the women. They've been through enough, no need to make it worse for them, or for other victims who have not yet told their story.

...if there are other victims at all, if he did do it.
You don't seem to be taking into account the possibility that he very well may be innocent.

[Keevan_Colton]

alleged, if. Those words have meanings.

But, what if he is guilty? Is it right to drag victims through the mud?

And if he is not guilty, how much harm are the accusations really doing to him in comparison?

Well 10 days of solitary confinement for starters...

[Stofsk]

lol

Given the kind of company he'd keep in the protection section of prison solitary confinement would be a fucking blessing.

[Simon_Jester]

Perhaps I should clarify somewhat. My problem isn't necessarily with the relevancy of the information, I just fail to see how anyone is going to apply it in any way, let alone any lasting way.

There's considerable ammunition there for anyone who cares to use it in the next several years to push a reform agenda in American foreign policy, or to demand such reforms from outside. It's quite likely to cause political scandals with long term effects- admittedly, maybe not in the US, where the political process is particularly clogged and distorted.

Assange himself described the distortion, in his recent Time magazine interview, summing it up as "political change doesn't result in change," and I think there's a valid point there regardless of the man's personal qualities.

Speaking of which (and on the original topic, I suppose) Assange can go die in a fire for all I care; I won't miss him because I'd never heard of him until recently, and nothing he says strikes me as making him a first-rate political philosopher or anything.* My willingness to defend him is quite limited. Pretty much the only thing I'll say in his defense is "Remember the notion of 'innocent until proven guilty,' especially when looking at people who have powerful enemies and no powerful friends."

I won't miss him and I won't go out of my way to defend him, but I'm not going to call him a rapist until he's convicted by a real court.

*Being a good political philosopher would not give him any claim to be immune from punishment for crimes, but it would at least make his political commentary well worth paying attention to and studying, as opposed to being mildly interesting and kind of pithy.

As for the Wikileaks issue, my thoughts on their disclosure of secrets haven't changed and I'm just disappointed in Assange and how this whole matter was handled. And I'm also disappointed in myself for lapsing into petty stupid tribalism.

I am thankful Lusy-chan is here to slap some sense into us.

Da.

[Molyneux]

alleged, if. Those words have meanings.

But, what if he is guilty? Is it right to drag victims through the mud?

And if he is not guilty, how much harm are the accusations really doing to him in comparison?

Well, if he's not guilty, then he's an innocent man who's been accused of rape. That tends to carry long-lasting social implications.

[Vympel]

I'm loathe to make any comment on a police report, except to say that in the circumstances, its not hard to see how a lawyer could make total mincemeat out of these claims in a courtroom. I'd be very surprised if these charges are going to stick.

EDIT: furthermore, these police reports being put into the public domain (and I wonder who did that, the women's lawyer is a good candidate) would I imagine raise serious fairness questions for Assange in any criminal proceedings, seeing as how he's already being dragged through the mud in public with claims that for all we know are outright lies. I don't know how Sweden's legal system works though.

Assange's former barrister on the numerous exploitable holes in the accusers' evidence, as well as the legal issues

[Anguirus]

I have no position at this time whether Assange is guilty of rape or not. I was hasty in my initial judgment of the validity of the case, and I thank Lusankya for setting me straight. However, it is primarily the timing of this accusation that made me extremely skeptical (coming as it did at almost the same time as Senators and the like started calling for his death), rather than some sort of pro-Assange "tribalism." I'm not pro-Assange so much as I'm anti-imperialist and I (generally, and not without reservation) support the efforts of WikiLeaks in that regard

[Spoonist]

...these police reports being put into the public domain ... raise serious fairness questions for Assange in any criminal proceedings...I don't know how Sweden's legal system works though

Shouldn't affect anything in theory. We don't have a jury and the judges regularly avoid info on cases that might end up in their court.
However the massive attacks on the swedish court system by semi-local hackers, foreign media and foreign celebs will of course have an effect on the case. Probably a negative one for the defendant. Because that is hard to ignore. But a leaked police report? Nil effect on the court.