StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Hi guys, I am one of the creators of Final Frontier. Wanted to pop in and address a couple issue I noticed up above before we derailed. I'm too tired right now to quote multiple posts, so forgive me if I wander.

Thanks to Sidewinder for the kind words and for actually reading the script. The main criticism we've gotten is that the show feels too dark, too Battlestar, and that it's too far from Roddenberry's original optimistic vision of the future. Most of the people who make this statement have only read the background, which is, admittedly, very dark and references so much existing canon that it seems very fan-fictiony. That's all history, stuff that happened before the show to set up where we are now. The show itself was then about getting Starfleet and the Federation out of that and back to what they used to be (Picard's "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?" comes to mind). The goal was also to tell new stories about new races and new planets, with only occasional nods to Trek's vast history.

It's important to remember where Trek was when this series was pitched. The JJ Abrams movie wasn't announced yet, Enterprise was dying, and both audiences and Paramount had lost faith in Trek. Perhaps rightfully so, since the franchise had been spinning its wheels for a while on the creative end, avoiding any kind of risk or change after DS9 went off the air. Star Trek has always been at its best when it tells stories that are allegories for our own time, so we decided to use this series as an allegory for the state of the entire franchise. It had lost its way, forgotten the ideals it was founded upon, and needed a group of explorers to help it find its way back to optimism, adventure, and fun. That's what Chase and our crew were going to do. The pilot, I think, makes that fairly clear. It may have been a lofty goal, but I think it's something Roddenberry actually would not have hated.

The ship designs are very rough, and releasing them so early was a mistake. Again, the pics get out without the attached explanations, and everyone assumes that they're going to see a blocky, spatula-shaped ship flying across the screen in the final product. The designs are a representation of the direction we were going in, were made in a program that isn't a big fan of curves, and were made by someone who is far from a professional (me). The actual ship would have been much more graceful, with fewer hard edges. We are working on another model that will be a better representation of the final ship if we ever have the time to finish it.

Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up. This thing took a whole lot of our time, attention, and love, and I am always happy to find places where I can have an intelligent conversation on the topic. I am cool with you not liking it, just don't immediately dismiss it based on a few pieces taken out of context.

I am happy to answer any questions if you've got 'em.

I'll jump in here and say I think I get where the concept is coming from. I can't remember if I said this here or on that other other board, but I feel like TOS and TNG took two different approaches to Roddenberry's utopian themes. In TOS the utopia was a work in progress; there was a sense, I think, that Kirk and the others knew they hadn't perfected their society yet, but they were at least trying. Whereas in TNG, the utopian project was finished, and, especially in the first season where Roddenberry had the most control, it felt like a creative deadweight (not to mention, the characters came off as incredibly pompous and arrogant about it, especially Picard). This isn't to slag TNG--TNG did a lot of things right, especially after it found its voice later on--but I think the lesson you take away from that is that utopias-in-progress offer better dramatic possibilities than finished utopias.

More generally, from the outline, it looks as if the idea with the animated project's backstory was to do with a fuck-off-huge war what Abrams did with time travelers--reset the setting so you can tell new Trek stories without all the baggage. I guess you could make the case that even having a HUEG WAR in the backstory is too grimdark (especially one analogous to WWI), but I don't buy that. It could become a problem if you drift off your theme and spend too much time telling Lost Generation type stories, but the tone I gather from the synopsis is fairly optimistic.

Uraniun235 wrote:Regarding naivete in Picard's actions towards the Romulans: no.

Contagion: Picard finds out that Yamato flew deep into the Neutral Zone - closer to Romulan space than Federation - to locate ancient Iconian technology. After Yamato is destroyed by the Iconian computer program, Picard takes up Yamato's self-assigned mission and charges deep into the Neutral Zone in order to deny the Romulans access to the Iconian outpost.

The Enemy: Picard denies a Romulan Warbird permission to enter Federation territory, even while a Romulan officer is dying for want of a blood transfusion. (this was a pretty crummy plot device, really)

The Defector: After being tipped off by a reluctant defector, Picard charges into the Neutral Zone to destroy an alleged Romulan invasion base. Data's log entry mentions that the command staff expected to run into resistance and were prepared to fight their way through to Nelvana III.

Data's Day: When Picard determines that the Romulans beamed the Federation ambassador away rather than having been killed in a transporter accident, he immediately orders the Enterprise into a confrontation with the Romulans to retrieve what he thought was an abducted Federation ambassador.


Picard was not afraid to confront the Romulans, even at great risk to the Enterprise.

You know, though, when the Romulans actually DID invade Federation space, in Unification, Picard, Data, and Spock was responsible for stopping them, except for the fact that they just let Sela go after they revealed her Nefarious Plot and then let the Romulans destroy the evidence. Remember? Data knocks her out and everything and they just leave her when they could have taken her captive and held the Romulans accountable. Instead, that whole "Romulans Attempting to Invade Vulcan" thing is never brought up or addressed again (though, granted, Sela's plan was pretty stupid... two thousand Romulans couldn't conquer Cleveland, let alone an entire planet). Picard sure wasn't willing to risk a confrontation then, when it involved an actual armed incursion into Federation space.

Picard is notorious for his unwillingness to be strong in the face of confrontation. Forget the Romulans for a second, instead, look at his actions toward the Cardassians. Sure, the Cardassian government "colonizing" the shit out of Federation citizens on the border, where everyone and their dog knows that they are violating the treaty with the Federation to the point that virtually all the resistance that formed the Maquis were ex-Starfleet officers who felt betrayed by Starfleet's cowardice. That doesn't stop Jean Luc Picard though! Picard goes the extra mile to actively attempt to hunt down Federation citizens who justly are attempting to defend themselves, just to avoid a confrontation with the Cardassians. When an entire Federation ship mutinied due to the Federation's deliberately ignoring the Cardassians' actions, it was Picard who sold them to the Cardassians and gave them classified military information to allow them to fight the Phoenix.. when he knew full well that Maxwell was right and the Cardassians were violating their treaty.

Picard probably let Sela go because he was afraid to confront the Romulans on actual misdeeds. If he was scared shitless to fght the Cardassians to the point he'd personally hunt fellow humans for them, what makes you think he'd be willing to actually fight a real power like the Romulans who are more dangerous?

DougM wrote:The ship designs are very rough, and releasing them so early was a mistake. Again, the pics get out without the attached explanations, and everyone assumes that they're going to see a blocky, spatula-shaped ship flying across the screen in the final product. The designs are a representation of the direction we were going in, were made in a program that isn't a big fan of curves, and were made by someone who is far from a professional (me).

I'm likely in the minority, but I actually like the Bismarck class battlecruiser's design. It looks very business-like: an honest-to-God warship or Coast Guard cutter, not a glorified luxury liner.

My main gripe is the shuttlebay's location. The hole might compromise structural integrity, and it causes difficulties if the ship must simultaneously launch and recover spacecraft. Better to add a long shuttlebay, with bow and stern doors providing the starship equivalent of an angled deck.

The actual ship would have been much more graceful, with fewer hard edges. We are working on another model that will be a better representation of the final ship if we ever have the time to finish it.

Personally, I like Ralph McQuarrie's design- what was nicknamed "Acclamatorprise" for its resemblance to the assault ships in Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones.

Gil Hamilton wrote:You know, though, when the Romulans actually DID invade Federation space, in Unification, Picard, Data, and Spock was responsible for stopping them, except for the fact that they just let Sela go after they revealed her Nefarious Plot and then let the Romulans destroy the evidence. Remember? Data knocks her out and everything and they just leave her when they could have taken her captive and held the Romulans accountable. Instead, that whole "Romulans Attempting to Invade Vulcan" thing is never brought up or addressed again (though, granted, Sela's plan was pretty stupid... two thousand Romulans couldn't conquer Cleveland, let alone an entire planet). Picard sure wasn't willing to risk a confrontation then, when it involved an actual armed incursion into Federation space.

Picard probably let Sela go because he was afraid to confront the Romulans on actual misdeeds. If he was scared shitless to fght the Cardassians to the point he'd personally hunt fellow humans for them, what makes you think he'd be willing to actually fight a real power like the Romulans who are more dangerous?

It's not like they particularly need "the evidence" for some kind of intergalactic justice league or something. The plot was foiled. What would taking Sela accomplish? The Romulans can't plausibly deny that an incursion had occurred, and if they did try, they would just as likely try to disown Sela as some sort of renegade commander or something. This is the second (or third?) major operation against the Federation's interests that she bungled. If she wasn't imprisoned or executed by the Romulans themselves, she was probably stripped of rank and left to fade away in some obscure posting while other ambitious officers took her place.

It's not like the Enterprise has to be fully involved in the complete aftermath of every incident either. The mission to find Spock is over. The Romulans have left Federation space. What's left for the Enterprise to do? The rest of that story is for Federation diplomats and admirals to resolve.

Do you think the Federation should have declared war in response to the events in Unification?

Picard is notorious for his unwillingness to be strong in the face of confrontation. Forget the Romulans for a second, instead, look at his actions toward the Cardassians. Sure, the Cardassian government "colonizing" the shit out of Federation citizens on the border, where everyone and their dog knows that they are violating the treaty with the Federation to the point that virtually all the resistance that formed the Maquis were ex-Starfleet officers who felt betrayed by Starfleet's cowardice. That doesn't stop Jean Luc Picard though! Picard goes the extra mile to actively attempt to hunt down Federation citizens who justly are attempting to defend themselves, just to avoid a confrontation with the Cardassians. When an entire Federation ship mutinied due to the Federation's deliberately ignoring the Cardassians' actions, it was Picard who sold them to the Cardassians and gave them classified military information to allow them to fight the Phoenix.. when he knew full well that Maxwell was right and the Cardassians were violating their treaty.

I really don't have any sympathy for the colonists who chose to remain inside the DMZ. The Federation offered to move them to other planets at no charge, and petulantly expecting that international borders should never ever change is no excuse for stubbornly refusing to move and then crying about how the new landlords are jerks.

Maxwell was an unstable renegade. He had flimsy evidence at best, and didn't even take the trouble to report his suspicions to his superiors before running off to kill hundreds of Cardassians. He couldn't even offer a coherent response to Picard's questioning; it sounded like George W. Bush making a case for invading Iraq. Furthermore, the decision to invade Cardassian space because he thinks they might be arming isn't his decision to make. The decision to risk a renewed conflict based on potential rearmament within a sovereign power's territory is one that has to be made at a higher level by people who have the information to assess risks to Federation interests against one another. If the Federation has to recommit Starfleet to further fighting with the Cardassians, it could mean that later, Starfleet doesn't have enough ships for some other crisis... like Picard's plan to foil the Romulan backing of the Duras insurrection. Whoops, now the Duras sisters won and the Klingons are over in the Romulan camp!

What exactly do you think Picard should have done, Gil? Do you think he should have disobeyed the direct order to "preserve the peace at any cost" and just obstinately refused to take any action, potentially sparking a war on behalf of billions of Federation citizens and their presumably-elected representatives? Do you think he should have been a manly man and gone pirate and teamed up with Maxwell to fight a two-ship war against every Cardie ship they can find? Tell me how a starship commander with balls should have solved these problems.

Uraniun235 wrote:It's not like they particularly need "the evidence" for some kind of intergalactic justice league or something. The plot was foiled. What would taking Sela accomplish? The Romulans can't plausibly deny that an incursion had occurred, and if they did try, they would just as likely try to disown Sela as some sort of renegade commander or something. This is the second (or third?) major operation against the Federation's interests that she bungled. If she wasn't imprisoned or executed by the Romulans themselves, she was probably stripped of rank and left to fade away in some obscure posting while other ambitious officers took her place.

It's not like the Enterprise has to be fully involved in the complete aftermath of every incident either. The mission to find Spock is over. The Romulans have left Federation space. What's left for the Enterprise to do? The rest of that story is for Federation diplomats and admirals to resolve.

Do you think the Federation should have declared war in response to the events in Unification?

You wouldn't arrest someone who lead an armed incursion into your country after you stopped her? Whether or not the Romulans would disown her or not, they still had a duty to capture Sela and her men, even if it was only rub the Romulan's noses in it for being bad. Instead, they just let her go free, because it's not as if she was either an enemy agent caught in the act or anything. There were absolutely no consequences to the events of Unification and in fact it was never mentioned again except obliquely in the last StarTrek movie as to why Spock was hanging out with the Romulans.

I really don't have any sympathy for the colonists who chose to remain inside the DMZ. The Federation offered to move them to other planets at no charge, and petulantly expecting that international borders should never ever change is no excuse for stubbornly refusing to move and then crying about how the new landlords are jerks.

By "jerks", you mean rape, loot, and kill them? You have an interesting definition of the work. They were Federation citizens and the Federation is obligated to defend them, particularly since the other side wasn't holding their end of the bargain and was actively violating the treaty themselves. They should have never had their colonies sold to the Cardassians in the first place, there was no reason to do so, and, since the Cardassians were known to be violating the treaty, the deal should have been off and the Federation should have resumed fighting.

Maxwell was an unstable renegade. He had flimsy evidence at best, and didn't even take the trouble to report his suspicions to his superiors before running off to kill hundreds of Cardassians. He couldn't even offer a coherent response to Picard's questioning; it sounded like George W. Bush making a case for invading Iraq. Furthermore, the decision to invade Cardassian space because he thinks they might be arming isn't his decision to make. The decision to risk a renewed conflict based on potential rearmament within a sovereign power's territory is one that has to be made at a higher level by people who have the information to assess risks to Federation interests against one another. If the Federation has to recommit Starfleet to further fighting with the Cardassians, it could mean that later, Starfleet doesn't have enough ships for some other crisis... like Picard's plan to foil the Romulan backing of the Duras insurrection. Whoops, now the Duras sisters won and the Klingons are over in the Romulan camp!

How do you know that Maxwell wasn't reporting his evidence to Starfleet? We caught the situation en media res, AFTER Maxwell and his crew mutinied. Note, it wasn't just Maxwell who left, it was his entire crew. If Maxwell was "an unstable renegade", then why would the crew of his ship follow him? He had to convince them before he could lead any attack against the Cardassians. Remember, the Federation didn't even know anything was wrong until the Cardassians started attacking Federation assets in retribution for what Maxwell was doing, so it's not like Maxwell's crew was split on the issue, because otherwise the Federation would have been warned that the Phoenix was planning to mutiny. We don't know anything about what Maxwell was reporting before hand or what his evidence actually was.

Further, keep in mind that the incident in "The Wounded" was just the time an entire ship mutinied due to Federation policy toward Cardassia and the Cardassian violation of the cease fire. Large sections of the Maquis were Federation officers who defected because the Federation was doing jack and shit to protect their citizens when it was clear that the Cardassians were still up to no good. All those photon torpedoes the Maquis got their hands on didn't smuggle themselves, it was Starfleet officers doing the work, because the Federations actions were clearly unjust. They could see that the Federation had betrayed those colonies and I doubt ALL of them were "unstable renegades".

It was Picard and Necheyev that weren't willing to do anything, or even hunt humans in defense of Cardassians. In fact, Picard did that despite knowing that Maxwell and everyone else was telling the truth about the Cardassians violation of the treaty. He tells Gul Macet that at the end of the episode, they he knew that Maxwell was telling the truth, but he went along with it anyway. It was only cowardice on the part of Starfleet that prevented them from doing what was right; that is, if the sovereign nation is violating the terms of a peace treaty, then the treaty is dissolved and the state of war resumes.

What exactly do you think Picard should have done, Gil? Do you think he should have disobeyed the direct order to "preserve the peace at any cost" and just obstinately refused to take any action, potentially sparking a war on behalf of billions of Federation citizens and their presumably-elected representatives? Do you think he should have been a manly man and gone pirate and teamed up with Maxwell to fight a two-ship war against every Cardie ship they can find? Tell me how a starship commander with balls should have solved these problems.

Are you shitting me, Uraniun? Picard disobeying a direct order from his superiors and going into a state of mutiny to protect a small colony from bad guys whom the Federation has a treaty with is the entire plot of the movie StarTrek: Insurrection. In fact, Picard's explicit reason for going rogue was to prevent the relocation of a small population of aliens who were squatting on a massively valuable natural resource that would have improved the lives of billions of Federation citizens. That sounds kind of familiar, except their were millions of Maquis colonists instead of a few hundred Ba'ku. Oh, and he was in favor of relocating those millions of colonists to appease the Cardassians, instead of giving a self-righteous speech about how the worst moments in human history involved forced relocations. And in exchange for relocating those colonists, the Federation gets nothing instead of miracle medical technology that would have improved the lives of their entire citizen body. And when those millions of colonists refused to go and armed themselves from being looted and murdered by gangs of Cardassians, he sided with the Cardassians.

What he should have done was investigate the situation and if the Cardassians had, in fact, violated the terms of the cease fire agreement, pursued it. What he shouldn't have done was go and hunt the Maquis, who defending themselves against Cardassians. But I suppose there wasn't 300 year old pussy at stake, so he has to obey orders rather than defiantly refuse to take part in the peaceful relocation of a few hundred attractive white people.

I would like to note that "the galaxy takes a darker, more war-like turn and the Federation winds up fighting everyone" is exactly the same means that Cryptic used to allow tension in STO. As has been stated, a completed utopia may be fine to live in, but it makes for awfully boring stories.

I have to say I like the idea of making warp more difficult, giving the setting much more of a "points of light" feel - in the series, you never really felt that the Enterprise was isolated, when the nearest Starbase was only a few hours in warp away.

Molyneux wrote:I would like to note that "the galaxy takes a darker, more war-like turn and the Federation winds up fighting everyone" is exactly the same means that Cryptic used to allow tension in STO. As has been stated, a completed utopia may be fine to live in, but it makes for awfully boring stories.

I have to say I like the idea of making warp more difficult, giving the setting much more of a "points of light" feel - in the series, you never really felt that the Enterprise was isolated, when the nearest Starbase was only a few hours in warp away.

I have the feeling (I'm not really up on my TOS) that back then, it generally felt like the Enterprise was on its own. But why should that be the case by TNG? Faster warp drives, a possibly larger and more colonized Federation...besides, how many times did the Enterprise go back to Earth to do anything?

Cecelia5578 wrote:

Molyneux wrote:I would like to note that "the galaxy takes a darker, more war-like turn and the Federation winds up fighting everyone" is exactly the same means that Cryptic used to allow tension in STO. As has been stated, a completed utopia may be fine to live in, but it makes for awfully boring stories.

I have to say I like the idea of making warp more difficult, giving the setting much more of a "points of light" feel - in the series, you never really felt that the Enterprise was isolated, when the nearest Starbase was only a few hours in warp away.

I have the feeling (I'm not really up on my TOS) that back then, it generally felt like the Enterprise was on its own. But why should that be the case by TNG? Faster warp drives, a possibly larger and more colonized Federation...besides, how many times did the Enterprise go back to Earth to do anything?

Are you asking about the E-D? It returned to earth almost once every season.

Let's see, in season 1, 'Conspiracy', it returned to earth. I don't think it did in season 2, but in season 3 it did in 'Best of Both Worlds part 1'. In season 4 I think it came back again in 'The Drumhead'. In season 5 it came back twice IIRC, the episode where Wesley is in trouble for being a douchebag and the finale where they find Data's head in an archelogical dig from the 19th Century ('The First Duty' and 'Time's Arrow'). I can't remember anything in season 6, but in season 7 the Enterprise visits Vulcan in 'Gambit' which is in the neighbourhood.

So she got around.

Stofsk wrote:
Let's see, in season 1, 'Conspiracy', it returned to earth. I don't think it did in season 2, but in season 3 it did in 'Best of Both Worlds part 1'. In season 4 I think it came back again in 'The Drumhead'. In season 5 it came back twice IIRC, the episode where Wesley is in trouble for being a douchebag and the finale where they find Data's head in an archelogical dig from the 19th Century ('The First Duty' and 'Time's Arrow'). I can't remember anything in season 6, but in season 7 the Enterprise visits Vulcan in 'Gambit' which is in the neighbourhood.

So she got around.

I don't think it came back to Earth for "Drumhead." The investigative team got trucked out to where ever the Enterprise was. The Enterprise however did start season 4 at Earth (BoBW part 2 and stayed for repairs in "Family").

Yes, that appears to be the case. Thanks.

Even so, I never got the sense that the Enterprise couldn't easily return to Earth if needed - or if not Earth, then to whichever of the interchangeable starbases was handy. It rarely actually felt isolated (except when, say, it was trapped in some anomaly or the engines were damaged).

Molyneux wrote:Even so, I never got the sense that the Enterprise couldn't easily return to Earth if needed - or if not Earth, then to whichever of the interchangeable starbases was handy. It rarely actually felt isolated (except when, say, it was trapped in some anomaly or the engines were damaged).

Season 1 made something of an effort to say the Ent-D was in the unknown. "Encounter at Farpoint" mentions that beyond Farpoint is "the great unexplored mass of the Galaxy." Later, towards the end of the season, in "Conspiracy" when Picard meets Walker Keel he tells him the Enterprise has been on the outer rim for some time. They visited at least one Starbase though, and stopped by where Data was found. They were probably on the edge of UFP territory....far enough to check out some new worlds, but close enough to sometimes cross into familiar waters when needed, so to speak.

Destructionator XIII wrote:I think you're misremembering the events of the episode. Picard led the armed incursion into the other country. Their meeting took place on Romulus, and if I'm remembering it correctly, Picard, Spock and Data were still undercover at the time too, and they had guns.

So they were supposed to kidnap her from her own soil, carry her out kicking and screaming while trying to sneak out past her guards in an underground exit....

This is the best plan I've ever heard!

I did misrember that Sela was on Romulus and not on the ships, but Sela's ships DID make an armed incursion to Vulcan. The Enterprise and the Vulcan defense force intercept them after Spock gets the word out. Then... nothing happens, with no consequences what so ever.

Once again, do you actually remember the episode? Picard did order them to be protected with force, had his ship ready to fight, and beamed down men with guns.

The Cardassian commander then backed off to avoid further loss of life.

After that, the Federation people decided to give up their citizenship and go on their own, with all parties agreeing to a deal.

Which episode are you talking about? The episode I was thinking about, where the Enterprise actively hunts Maquis who are defending themselves against Cardassians that are violating the terms of the cease fire, "Preemptive Strike", no such thing happens. What does happen is that the Cardassians are covertly arming their side with weapons and the Maquis are planning to hit them first, which is the cause of the Enterprise going after them. It sounds like you are thinking about "Ensign Ro", but what you describe doesn't happen in that either. There, two Cardassian ships demand Picard backs off, Picard says no, and the Cardassians give him an hour to reconsider before they attack.

Note: it comes from Admiral Necheyev that the Cardassians are arming their side against the human colonists, but that they are coming down on the Maquis to maintain the treaty ANYWAY for the sake of peace. Even though they know that the Cardassians aren't holding their end of the agreement. Further, in "Preemptive Strike", Picard explicitly tells the Maquis to back down because they are Federation citizens (not, as you suggest, gone their seperate ways).

But really, there are two ways to look at it. Either the colonists who became the Maquis ARE Federation citizens, which means Picard is aiding the Cardassians against people he was sworn to protect. Or they are no longer Federation citizens, which means they are sovereign group conducting a private war against the Cardassians, which (since this is happening in Cardassians space) makes it an internal matter of the Cardassian Union and thus none of their business. Necheyev and Picard seem to feel the Maquis are the former (which is right, since most of the Maquis' command were Starfleet officers who mutinied due to Federation policy over the fate of the colonies)

The Cardassians did not violate the treaty. There allegedly was circumstancial evidence that they might have been planning to, but they did not actually violate it - Maxwell, however, did.

I think you might arguing from faulty memory here. There's text scripts and Youtube videos of most TNG episodes out there if you do a search for them. It's good to refresh your memory.

Wrong. Necheyev lays out what the terms of the treaty in Journey's End:

The Federation has just completed a very long and difficult series of negotiations regarding the final status of our border with the Cardassians. These will be the official boundaries... you'll notice that a demilitarized zone has also been created along the border. Neither side will be permitted to place military outposts, conduct fleet exercises, or station warships anywhere in the demilitarized area.

What was Maxwell's grievance with the Cardassians that cause the entire crew of the Phoenix to mutiny and take matters into their own hands? What I bolded... the Cardassians were building a secret military base in the DMZ under the guise of a research station and the Cardassian transports they were blowing up were supplying it with arms. Picard tells Gul Macet at the end of the episode that they knew that Maxwell and the crew of the Phoenix were right, that his interdiction was to maintain peace. In other words, the Federation knew the Cardassians were violating the terms of the cease fire by building military assets in the DMZ, but rather than hold the Cardassians accountable, Picard was willing to murder the crew of the Phoenix for actually doing something about it.

Gah, movie Picard must have been the result of a cloning experiment gone horribly wrong.

No, Shinzon was the result of a cloning experiment of Picard gone horribly wrong, but that was in the next movie. Picard in Insurrection was the same self-righteous git in the series. What it shows is his priorities. He was willing to aid and abet the Cardassians committing atrocities against his own people, but what basically amounted to the Federation using eminent domain to clear relocate around six hundred people to a place that didn't contain Magic Immortality Particles that would have revolutionized Federation medical technology, it was going TOO FAR, DAMN IT! He even gives a speech about how the worst atrocities in human history involved forced relocations.

Keep in mind the Federation's Evil Relocation Plan for the Ba'ku was to transport them into a holodeck representation of their village while they were sleeping, move them to a similarly nice planet, and drop them off with an apology so the Son'a could harvest the Magic Immortality Particles without, you know, killing them. They only bothered with the deception at all, because they thought the Ba'ku were pre-warp and thus couldn't ask them to leave without violating the Prime Directive... as it turned out, they had advanced technology, they just abandoned it for the typical luddite reasons. I grant you that the head of the Son'a turned out to be somewhat of a mustache twirling villain and had an ulterior motive for wanting to be so helpful in helping the Federation relocate the Ba'ku and harvest the Magic Immortality Particles, but had Data at first and then Picard not have intervened, the worst that would have happened to the Ba'ku is that they'd have ended up on another planet that wasn't keeping them eternally young and beautiful.

Yet that same Picard who defies orders to protect six hundred aliens from being peacefully moved because it's WRONG DAMMIT! is perfectly fine with helping the Cardassians against his own people.

All this argument about him attacking his own people ignores one thing. They are traitors. These people have betrayed the federation and are conducting action based on their own moral ideals that puts billions of lives at risk. If anything, they are worse than the Cardassians. The Cardassians are doing it for the gain of their own people and empire, the terrorists are doing what they think is right in spite of their own people and nation.

After all, how can the Federation hold anyone accountable for anything if they can not even be held accountable to control their own citizens.


I can easily see how after the whole situation after that episode could have looked like this:
Federation Diplomat: "You tried to invade Vulcan!"
Romulan Diplomat: "No, we did not. It was a terrorist faction within our government."
Federation Diplomat: "You do not honestly think we will accept such an obvious excuse."
Romulan Diplomat: *coughs* "Maquis."
Federation Diplomat: *starts sweating* "Ah, that. Yes, yes. Well, I see what you mean now. Well, do try and warn us or something next time."
Romulan Diplomat: "Or something."

So the Maquis get the shaft because the Federation fears diplomatic power when dealing with the Romulans and the Cardassians?

The Maquis get the shaft because they are traitors and terrorists.
But the fact that they exist and are composed of Starfleet officers destroys the Federations credibility. I mean what does it tell you if a nation can not even control its own armed forces? Do you think such a nation can be trusted to hold up its agreements?

And that I think is the reason why the Federation is so lenient toward the other powers. They simply have to prove them self extra hard to prove they can be trusted. And the others take advantage of this without any remorse.

Picard can be all high and mighty when he has free hand to act but when billions of Federation citizens are at risk of dying in an open war he has to become a bit more pragmatic.

The Maquis are not traitors. They got sold into Cardassian hands by a bizarre treaty where the Federation gave up some of its colonies despite being a superior power and then received no support when the Cardassians started attempting to drive them from their homes by committing atrocities against them. You got so many Starfleet officers running the military end of the Maquis because they felt that you don't, that defending the lives of Federation citizens against a hostile foreign power is worth doing, even if Starfleet won't act. That colonists and Bajorans who composed the Maquis were acting in self-defense against a dangerous foreign government. Note: alot of the Maquis, like Orta in "Ensign Ro" were Bajorans whos greivance against Cardassia was the whole "invading their planet, turning their people to slave labor, and strip mining their natural resources" while the Federation classified it as "an internal matter of the Cardassian Union". The Federation colonists and Bajorans have EXCELLENT reasons for resisting Cardassian occupation of their worlds.

Gil Hamilton wrote:The Maquis are not traitors.

But they are. This has nothing do do with morality. They are Federation citizens that are conducting terrorist actions against a foreign government in explicit violation of a treaty the Federation has with said foreign power. This goes even more for Starfleet officers who are sworn to uphold the decisions of Starfleet Command.

I mean, can you imagine a modern day soldier defecting from his unit and going over to fight a guerrilla campaign against some other country because he disagrees with the treaties his government has with them?

Purely technically speaking that does qualify as treason.

They got sold into Cardassian hands by a bizarre treaty where the Federation gave up some of its colonies despite being a superior power and then received no support when the Cardassians started attempting to drive them from their homes by committing atrocities against them.

Those colonies were traded just as land does get traded in diplomacy. They were offered to move (I think they were at least) and refused. From that point on the colonies belong to the Cardassians, and they really can not and should not expect the Federation to help them.

I mean sure, it sucks to be them. And I can even completely understand the colonists who were quite outraged and rebelled. I would have done the same. But the Starfleet officers are simply irredeemable.

You got so many Starfleet officers running the military end of the Maquis because they felt that you don't, that defending the lives of Federation citizens against a hostile foreign power is worth doing, even if Starfleet won't act.

Exactly, can you imagine a real world soldier doing that? Imagine if say an American aircraft carrier with full air wing went rogue and started attacking the Chinese because they disagree with the PRC's human rights policies.

And tell me, is it their duty to feel or to serve Starfleet? Did they graduate from the academy and make their wows to ideals or to the service? Professional soldiers should not act that way. They let their ideals come before their duty to the Federation. They put billions of federation citizens at risk for the sake of a bunch of outer rim colonists.

And hence they are traitors.

That colonists and Bajorans who composed the Maquis were acting in self-defense against a dangerous foreign government. Note: alot of the Maquis, like Orta in "Ensign Ro" were Bajorans whos greivance against Cardassia was the whole "invading their planet, turning their people to slave labor, and strip mining their natural resources" while the Federation classified it as "an internal matter of the Cardassian Union". The Federation colonists and Bajorans have EXCELLENT reasons for resisting Cardassian occupation of their worlds.

I don't deny that they do. I just think that from a purely neutral standpoint the Federation has nothing to gain and everything to lose if they do not distance them self from these people.

In the eyes of the Cardassians or the Romulans these groups will look no different than how the west views the Taliban. And the Federation has to show that they do not support them lest they be labeled a terrorist state.

Purple wrote:

They got sold into Cardassian hands by a bizarre treaty where the Federation gave up some of its colonies despite being a superior power and then received no support when the Cardassians started attempting to drive them from their homes by committing atrocities against them.

Those colonies were traded just as land does get traded in diplomacy. They were offered to move (I think they were at least) and refused. From that point on the colonies belong to the Cardassians, and they really can not and should not expect the Federation to help them.

I mean sure, it sucks to be them. And I can even completely understand the colonists who were quite outraged and rebelled. I would have done the same. But the Starfleet officers are simply irredeemable.

I'm curious here; did the Federation actually have the right to trade away those colonies? Were they Federation property, or independent?

Molyneux wrote:I'm curious here; did the Federation actually have the right to trade away those colonies? Were they Federation property, or independent?

I don't think that matters. This is because what ever the case my be the Federation has the legal right to make such agreements.
Allow me to explain my line of reasoning. You see, there are only 3 cases that I can think of that could have been:

Case 1: They were Federation colonies owned by the Federation. The Federation can hence simply trade away the land.
Case 2: They were independent colonies under federation protection and/or support. The Federation can sign a treaty to cut of said protection or support leaving them open for the Cardassians to invade at their leisure.
Case 3: They were independent and not under federation protection and/or support. The Federation can sign a treaty to not give them any of said protection or support in the future leaving them open for the Cardassians to invade at their leisure.

While case 1 handles actual trade of territory cases 2 and 3 handle an exchange of zones of influence. But in reality the changes are only semantical. Either way you put it, minor colonies are just bargaining chips for the superpowers. And being independent (if they were) would not change a thing. In fact, if they were independent the Federation would have even less reason not to just sign them away.

Gil Hamilton wrote:You wouldn't arrest someone who lead an armed incursion into your country after you stopped her? Whether or not the Romulans would disown her or not, they still had a duty to capture Sela and her men, even if it was only rub the Romulan's noses in it for being bad.

Let me see if I get this straight. Picard, Data, and Spock are supposed to drag along an unconscious woman, potentially complicating their escape and thereby engendering additional risk to themselves, purely to "rub the Romulans' noses in it for being bad." I just want to make sure I've got that clear.

The Enterprise and the Vulcan defense force intercept them after Spock gets the word out. Then... nothing happens, with no consequences what so ever.

Again, what fucking consequences do you want to see? An open war?

Hey, if USA military personnel foiled a secret USSR plot to invade the USA, and effectively returned the situation to status quo antebellum, do you seriously think the USA should have started a war with the USSR? I'm just curious since you've got such a hardon for consequences.

How do you know that Maxwell wasn't reporting his evidence to Starfleet? We caught the situation en media res, AFTER Maxwell and his crew mutinied. Note, it wasn't just Maxwell who left, it was his entire crew. If Maxwell was "an unstable renegade", then why would the crew of his ship follow him? He had to convince them before he could lead any attack against the Cardassians. Remember, the Federation didn't even know anything was wrong until the Cardassians started attacking Federation assets in retribution for what Maxwell was doing, so it's not like Maxwell's crew was split on the issue, because otherwise the Federation would have been warned that the Phoenix was planning to mutiny. We don't know anything about what Maxwell was reporting before hand or what his evidence actually was.

Because if Maxwell had concrete evidence and a paper trail of reports to Starfleet Command, he wouldn't have folded up like a cheap chair in Picard's office. When Picard asked "where is your data", Maxwell would say "I've got fifty teraquads of sensor logs showing Cardassian arms shipments", and when Picard asked "why didn't you report this to Starfleet Command", Maxwell would respond "I have and they didn't listen! I've got copies of both the reports and the communications logs!"

But he didn't, he threw up a line of bullshit about how he "had to act" in the face of some nebulous danger, and then just accused Picard of cowardice for even questioning him. It's seriously reminiscent of Bush arguing that we knew Saddam had them dubya-emm-dees and by golly we gotta get 'em before they get us. How long has it been since you've seen that scene, Gil? It's a really fucking pathetic showing on Maxwell's part and I'm surprised you're defending him as much as you are.

This shit about "nuhh the crew" is just horseshit. It doesn't take the whole crew to go along, just a few key senior officers. "The crew" certainly didn't do shit when Captain Kirk flew straight into Romulan territory without the slightest explanation.

Also a LOL about "well the photon torpedoes HAD to come from a VAST conspiracy of sympathizers!"

1) I really doubt it takes a huge proportion of the Starfleet in order to smuggle out some torpedoes.
2) As much as I loathe how it became a conspiracy catch-all to fans, it's 100% in character for Section 31 to smuggle arms to the Maquis in an attempt to draw the Cardassians into a draining asymmetrical war. Or, shit, even for some of the Starfleet conspirators to do so less out of "awwww poor Maquis" sympathy and more out of "FUCK CARDASSIANS"-types who still want to continue the fight.

It was only cowardice on the part of Starfleet that prevented them from doing what was right; that is, if the sovereign nation is violating the terms of a peace treaty, then the treaty is dissolved and the state of war resumes.

That's a Federation decision, to which Starfleet should be subservient to, including Picard.

Are you shitting me, Uraniun? Picard disobeying a direct order from his superiors and going into a state of mutiny to protect a small colony from bad guys whom the Federation has a treaty with is the entire plot of the movie StarTrek: Insurrection.

I really don't give a shit what Picard did in Insurrection because it was a shitty plot for a mediocre movie that I don't even think should have been made to begin with.

The real difference however is that the Baku were not Federation citizens, and therefore the Federation presumably had no right to order their removal or extermination. The Maquis, on the other hand, were Federation citizens under Federation authority.

Let me ask you though, Gil, do you believe that no government ever has the right to cede settled/occupied territory to another? Because that's literally the whole fucking lynchpin of the entire "waaaahhhh the federation is sooo mean and the maquis are sooooo noble" sob story, is that the Federation should not ever trade territory which already has been settled, even if it may be in the best interest of the Federation.

"nuhhh but superior power"

So, first, the admiral in The Wounded was pretty much shitting his pants at the thought of a renewed war with the Cardassians. "Cannot afford" were the words he used. I guess he was just a huge fucking weeping pussy, right? Since you clearly know so much more about the strategic problems facing Starfleet than he did, right?

Hey, guess what dipshit - you don't have to be the strongest possible opponent in order to cause a huge security problem for the Federation. If the Cardassians tie down enough of Starfleet, that leaves the Federation that much more vulnerable against the Romulans, or maybe a bunch of other clownshoe powers like the Breen. Especially after the Federation lost a whole bunch of ships just a few months ago and Starfleet is already usually thinly spread.


I'll ask again because I really want a straight and clear answer to this:

Do you believe that no government ever has the right to cede settled/occupied territory to another?

EDIT: I should clarify that if you don't, then we probably have no basis for agreement and this becomes a futile discussion.

hello. i have been lurking for a while and decided finally register to throw my two cents in this discussion.

I think the problem that some of you are forgetting with the maquis is that they are not federation citizens. And that is the problem.

In the epsiode Journey's End picard told the colonists that they would no longer be citizens of the federation. that they would become defacto cardassian citizens. This means that the federation has washed it's hands clean of them. this is a two way street. the federation doesn't have to protect them but it doesn't have get involved when they caused trouble either. remember how the maquis started? it was in preemptive strike. the cardassains had their colonists beat, rape and murder the ex-federation colonists so they would move and the cardassaians could put their people there instead. When the maquis formed it was only the colonists who were in it and it was an internal matter for cardassia. they were treating their citizens like shit and the citizens were not taking any more. they knew what picard had said and listened. rather than go crawling to the federation they went to the blackmarket bought weapons and defended themselves. when the cardassians went to the federation for help the response should have been: "you are reaping what you have sown. you wanted those worlds and were willing to accept the people on them. now that you are getting your ass kicked for being racist assholes you are getting your just desserts" . it should not be "sure we will help you oppress the people you are treating like shit even though it goes against everything we stand for and is strictly an internal matter" .

I mean it is like if america gave up pueto rico, and pueto rico and cuba went at it.(not likely, but the nearest example i could think of.) america has no responbility for the actions of pueto rico when it leaves our influence. it is the same with the maquis and the federation. not federation citizens, not a federation problem.

In addition with exception of ro and eddington(probably a few others that i don't remember) the majority of starfleet personel in the maquis are exstarfleet. they resigned their commission and join the maquis. they did not as a whole desert. they quit then went and joined the maquis. if this makes them traitors then so is worf. he resigned and joined gowron's side in the klingon civil war. is he a traitor for feeling that that fight is worth fighting and not just ingoring? just because your people quit and then join a group fighting for their freedom and quality doesn't mean you throw a bitchfit like starfleet did. In fact i think most of the "desertions" happened only after the federation starting assisting the cardassians in oppressing it's citizens! true they were exfederation citizens but the fact remains they were now cardassian citizens and the cardassians were treating them like shit. I would think that most of the people here on this board would fight for thier freedom if it was being treated like the colonists were. I actually think that the federation trully spat on its ideals when it went so far as to actually assist in the oppression of another nations people.

well that is my two cents. it was phased better than when i tried to post it got lost.

I will try and be better latter when I am not as frustated.

FYI, several Maquis were in fact Federation citizens. They were sympathizers who deliberately joined the fight on the side of the Maquis. This largely came from Starfleet officers who joined.

The Maquis/Cardassian conflict was basically an internal Cardassian matter, which should have meant zero Federation involvement. The fact that the majority of the Maquis were former Federation citizens is immaterial. Frankly, its the Texas Revolution, several Americans moved into Mexican territory, and then rebelled and tried to become their own nation.

The difference is that the Maquis were originally part of the Federation before their land was sold over and that the Texan side one against Santa Anna. As opposed to the Cardassians getting help from a foreign power and wiping out the Maquis wholesale.