StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Anguirus wrote:"Destroyer" sounds like a general type/goal to me, "Droideka" would be the specific model. This is backed up by literature IIRC (such as Survivor's Quest).

The usage is also correct in the film: Obi-Wan just recognizes them as destroyer droids, while the businessmen who purchased them know the brand name. The point is, if this is only valid for a translation of the film I don't think it can be construed to help your argument...not that IMO it did much in the first place.

Can't agree here. There's simply no other droid known as "destroyer" in the entire SW lore than the droideka (Insider's Guide, EP I Visual Dictionary etc.). If you know of some other destroyer droids that are not also known as droideka please let me know it.
The characters aren't supposed to be speaking any earth language so I'd consider both "translations" to be equally valid. The only unusual thing Obi Wan notices about these particular destroyers are their deployable shields, so we can presume he's at least somewhat familiar with the product line. The final battle does feature shieldless droidekas after all.

For everyone else, Qui Gon's words are "It's a standoff, let's go" before they scram, which I think doesn't seem to indicate that time is the factor here but the inability of the two Jedi to depose of the droidekas.

In the original script the two were supposed to be attacked by a dozen or so droidekas from all sides, which would have made their hasty escape way more plausible.

Metahive wrote:

Anguirus wrote:"Destroyer" sounds like a general type/goal to me, "Droideka" would be the specific model. This is backed up by literature IIRC (such as Survivor's Quest).

The usage is also correct in the film: Obi-Wan just recognizes them as destroyer droids, while the businessmen who purchased them know the brand name. The point is, if this is only valid for a translation of the film I don't think it can be construed to help your argument...not that IMO it did much in the first place.

Can't agree here. There's simply no other droid known as "destroyer" in the entire SW lore than the droideka (Insider's Guide, EP I Visual Dictionary etc.). If you know of some other destroyer droids that are not also known as droideka please let me know it.
The characters aren't supposed to be speaking any earth language so I'd consider both "translations" to be equally valid. The only unusual thing Obi Wan notices about these particular destroyers are their deployable shields, so we can presume he's at least somewhat familiar with the product line. The final battle does feature shieldless droidekas after all.

For everyone else, Qui Gon's words are "It's a standoff, let's go" before they scram, which I think doesn't seem to indicate that time is the factor here but the inability of the two Jedi to depose of the droidekas.

In the original script the two were supposed to be attacked by a dozen or so droidekas from all sides, which would have made their hasty escape way more plausible.

I'd say the original script seemed more plausible.

Once they're deployed, shields raised and guns blazing, I think it's quite reasonable for the Jedi to be unable to deal with the droids in a risk-free way. Remember that cutting into the bridge is a secondary objective, not a primary; they need to escape more than they need to duke it out with the ship's security forces.

Picking a fight with something that's tough enough that it might wound or kill you before you can destroy it when you need to move quickly in order to escape before the security force converges on you... not a good idea. Sure, the Jedi might be able to take down the destroyer droids if it's that or die, but it's not really worth the risk if they have a clear escape route.

While I realise that game mechanics are non-canon, I feel I must ask the question-
Has anyone played Battlefront II? And noticed how easily Jedi get slaughtered by Droidekas in that game?
It's also worth noting that in the game, lightsabers can actually take down a Droideka's sheilds (which they've never done in the movies or the CW series). It seems odd that game mechanics are meant to even things up, and yet Jedi (who slaughter everything else, including small vehicles) get eaten for breakfast by Droidekas.

PS- I'm not really trying to use this as evidence to prove anything, I'm just wondering if anyone else noticed this.

You raise Battlefront I raise you The Force Unleashed games. The latter even has Lucas's blessings.

Sarevok wrote:You raise Battlefront I raise you The Force Unleashed games. The latter even has Lucas's blessings.

I haven't played it yet! Are Droidekas present (and insanely deadly)?

Darth Tedious wrote:

Sarevok wrote:You raise Battlefront I raise you The Force Unleashed games. The latter even has Lucas's blessings.

I haven't played it yet! Are Droidekas present (and insanely deadly)?

No, the Force Unleashed is a Jedi action game where you play as Vader's secret apprentice. He is saying that that depiction of Jedi would effortlessly defeat those two Droidekas given the exaggerated powers of the apprentice. It has its name for a reason.

I see. I really must check it out at some point.

Back towards the subject at hand, is there any mention in the books of lightsabers taking down sheilds?

Back towards the subject at hand, is there any mention in the books of lightsabers taking down sheilds?

Well infantry and droid shields were lot more commonplace in the KoToR era, when the average blaster produced a much less energetic bolt than Late Republic/Imperial era weapons. Lightsabers worked fine against shields. Infact amongst elite warriors of the era using lightsabers and other extremely intense short range weapons like vivroblades were preferred methods for killing heavily shielded enemies.

Sarevok wrote:

Back towards the subject at hand, is there any mention in the books of lightsabers taking down sheilds?

Well infantry and droid shields were lot more commonplace in the KoToR era, when the average blaster produced a much less energetic bolt than Late Republic/Imperial era weapons. Lightsabers worked fine against shields. Infact amongst elite warriors of the era using lightsabers and other extremely intense short range weapons like vivroblades were preferred methods for killing heavily shielded enemies.

Intreguing. Was there any indication why personal shields fell out of fashion? It would seem they'd be more necessary against greater firepower.

Blasters became more powerful. Personal shields could not keep up. Just like what happened to metal armor and guns in real life.

In the movie era personal shields capable of blocking blasters do exist, but they are very expensive. Only elite mercenaries and special forces units like Delta Squad use them.

Movie-era personal shields also have the minor difficulty that you have to remain still while using them, I think, and they also overheat quickly so they're short-term use only. Prince Isolder of Hapes uses one in fending off an assassination attempt.

First I would think it depends on how the force work. If shields can interefere with using the Force somehow that would probably make attacking the droids harder. At the very least, they make using the ligthsaber against them impossible. The automatic blasters are a real problem because of the sheer volume of fire they can put out can force a Jedi onto the defensive - even if the Jedi's defenses don't degrade over time (unlikely) the blaster fire will keep the Jedi blocking, making it hard for them to either take time out to gesture or to draw on the force for anyhting but defending themselves. Even trying to use TK or a force wall to stop them at a distance when rolling forward probalby isn't going to do much - they use repulsors to propel themselves along clearly so I expect it would be hard toge them to run into a Force wall (or any flat, invisible barrier type attack) or to push them away. And levitation probably won't work since they probably could still unfurl and attack with the blasters (and even if not, they can't levitate it forever)

On shields interfering with the Force, Luke seemed to be pretty confident he could cripple a pirate battlecruiser in SotP in a combat situation, where we can reasonably assume its shields were up. Doesn't change the fact that the sheer volume of fire likely makes it a tad hard to concentrate on doing anything else.

Simon_Jester wrote:Once they're deployed, shields raised and guns blazing, I think it's quite reasonable for the Jedi to be unable to deal with the droids in a risk-free way. Remember that cutting into the bridge is a secondary objective, not a primary; they need to escape more than they need to duke it out with the ship's security forces.

Picking a fight with something that's tough enough that it might wound or kill you before you can destroy it when you need to move quickly in order to escape before the security force converges on you... not a good idea. Sure, the Jedi might be able to take down the destroyer droids if it's that or die, but it's not really worth the risk if they have a clear escape route.

Firstly, there is an element of risk in anything they attempted. Second, I'd argue that getting to the bridge WAS Their primary objective, and escape was a fallback. They capture Gunray, and the war is over before it starts. Also doesn't change the fact that the use of the force should have allowed them to deal with the two destroyer droids relatively quickly.

I posted my own (and quite speculative) pet theory on the wiki, namely that the existence of the Leth Universal Energy Cage is proof positive that the Force is affected by energy fields. According to Dark Empire, Leth didn't so much design the cage to focus on the "frequency band" of the Force or any such Trek-like finagling; my take on it is that he simply decided to pour on the power and hope that a miniscule fraction of the energy he put in would do the trick. Then again, energy is cheap in the Star Wars universe.

So what about the droidekas? Well, there has to be a reason that ordinary organics can't use that kind of shields. We know that one can actually contract painful burns by coming into contact with a personal energy shield. In short, a personal shield is going to be putting out radiation constantly, if nothing else by interaction with the surrounding atmosphere.

Starships don't necessarily have that. Their shields only seem to flare reactively. My fanfic-grade theory would be that a shield that actually is in its active state (that is, in the process of repelling incoming fire or interacting with its environment) might also produce interference as it does so, a part of which could serve to disrupt the energy field called the Force. It wouldn't have to be by much, either. Even a minute hindrance in using the Force to affect an enemy would be noticeable, I should think. At least if the enemy were something like the well-armed and shielded droideka.

</rampant speculation>

I thought that it was a fact that organics can't use the type of shields the destroyers use because of the radiation they gave off?

Havok wrote:I thought that it was a fact that organics can't use the type of shields the destroyers use because of the radiation they gave off?

Yeah. That was part of my (probably clumsily made) point - that droideka shields, in spewing out all that radiation, actually impede the Force in some small way.

But then what about the bigger,visible theater shields? As several Clone Wars episodes have shown, they can be crossed by organics just fine and they don't have any noticable effects on the Force despite being much bigger. Then there's also that Rex could reach through the shield of a droideka without hurting himself, which either means that your radiation theory is wrong or that clone trooper armor resists it, which then however begs the question why they don't use personal shields either, if only in short bursts.

Metahive wrote:But then what about the bigger,visible theater shields? As several Clone Wars episodes have shown, they can be crossed by organics just fine and they don't have any noticable effects on the Force despite being much bigger. Then there's also that Rex could reach through the shield of a droideka without hurting himself, which either means that your radiation theory is wrong or that clone trooper armor resists it, which then however begs the question why they don't use personal shields either, if only in short bursts.

As for the radiation of certain shield types being deleterious to organics, that's not inferred by my theory but canon fact. It does point toward Droideka shields being a lot more "dirty" in terms of damaging radiation than other shields; then again, apparently Ahsoka supported herself on a Droideka shield without ill effect in the cartoons, so the evidence is inconsistent.

As for theatre shields, if we go by the theory that you'd actually have to (uniformly) surround the area protected with lots of ambient radiation, then the fact that bigger theatre shields don't harm organics would be unsurprising, right?

Eleas wrote:As for theatre shields, if we go by the theory that you'd actually have to (uniformly) surround the area protected with lots of ambient radiation, then the fact that bigger theatre shields don't harm organics would be unsurprising, right?

No. Explain that in detail please. Why does the harmful radiation supposedly emitted by a visible shield become less harmful the bigger the shield is to the point of even enabling people to cross the visible part without receiving any damage? Also, what kind of radiation are we talking about here anyway? Some sort of made-up fantasy radiation or bog-standard alpha, beta and gamma rays?

<snip>

Argh. Deleted a snarky reply to Metahive because I realize that my post said something different than what I actually meant to say.

Metahive wrote:

Eleas wrote:As for theatre shields, if we go by the theory that you'd actually have to (uniformly) surround the area protected with lots of ambient radiation, then the fact that bigger theatre shields don't harm organics would be unsurprising, right?

No. Explain that in detail please. Why does the harmful radiation supposedly emitted by a visible shield become less harmful the bigger the shield is to the point of even enabling people to cross the visible part without receiving any damage? Also, what kind of radiation are we talking about here anyway? Some sort of made-up fantasy radiation or bog-standard alpha, beta and gamma rays?

The full text (i.e. what I really should have written) is this:

Eleas wrote:As for theatre shields, they don't necessarily have the same characteristics. If we go by the theory that you'd actually have to (uniformly) surround the area protected with lots of ambient radiation to interfere with the Force, and that the Force works through theatre shields, then the fact that bigger theatre shields don't harm organics would be unsurprising, right?

I mixed in two different subjects and the sentence became bloody mush. Apologies.

Didn't the Episode II ICS or Episode II Inside the Worlds book outright state that clonetrooper armor (and presumably later stormtrooper armor) are resistant to shields and required to cross into the area being shielded, something about crossing the inteface of the shield without protection results in recieving fatal burns? Presumably, this is related to why repulsordriven craft can't cross through the shield interface, yet once underneath the sheild can operate perfectly fine as seen on Hoth. As for why don't clonetroopers/stormtroopers have shielding of some form? My best guess would be the cost in equpping them with it. Keep in mind that not all destroyers have sheilds either. Mind you we do see limited shielding used on the Katarn class armor worn by Republic Commandos, and presumably later Imperial units had access to similar tech, even if your average grunt didn't get it as standard kit.

What I don't get is why didn't gunray send these things down with them and have THEM guard the queen, since they were the only formidable thing against the jedi's. He knew the Jedi were down there, did he just think they were gonna smoke weed while they were down on the planet? Hell no, the queen would've been their priority.