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DaveJB wrote: I think there was a line that explained that the Excelsior was the only ship that had a fast enough warp drive to start from the Sol system and chase down the Enterprise.

Not in the movie there wasn't. From what I can tell, Excelsior was simply the most immediately available ship. I don't recall seeing any other ship in or around that starbase in STIII.

After that failed because of Scotty's sabotage, Starfleet switched to trying to get the Grissom to somehow deal with the Enterprise when it got to Genesis, not realising that the Klingons had gotten there first and blown the Grissom into its component atoms.

Again, I can't recall any mention of that in the movie. IIRC Kirk tried to contact Grissom, I don't recall any mention of Starfleet doing so.

Ghetto edit: Starfleet DID try to contact Grissom, warning them about Enterprise. Kirk & Co eavesdropping on that was what I misremembered as Kirk trying to do so, so my bad.

Batman wrote:Not in the movie there wasn't. From what I can tell, Excelsior was simply the most immediately available ship. I don't recall seeing any other ship in or around that starbase in STIII.

There were some other starships (including the "Acclamatorprise" model) in the Earth spacedock - albeit at the very bottom of the screen in the shot where the Excelsior is first introduced, so the film doesn't exactly go out of its way to call attention to them. In any case, Captain Styles mentions in his conversation with Scotty that the Enterprise was the fastest ship in the fleet prior to the Excelsior arriving on the scene, so it stands to reason that the Excelsior was the only ship that had a realistic chance of catching the Enterprise, and in turn explains why Scotty needed to take its warp drive out of action.

He said he wanted to break some of the speed records Enterprise set. I know of at least one occasion where Enterprise went uber fast because they had aliens messing with the engines (the Kelvans, although I can't recall the episode.) So having Enterprise set the records doesn't mean that's what she can do all the time.

DaveJB wrote:

Batman wrote:Not in the movie there wasn't. From what I can tell, Excelsior was simply the most immediately available ship. I don't recall seeing any other ship in or around that starbase in STIII.

There were some other starships (including the "Acclamatorprise" model) in the Earth spacedock - albeit at the very bottom of the screen in the shot where the Excelsior is first introduced,

Not in my copy of the movie there aren't. Do you have a screenshot? I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, but on my copy of the movie those ships simply aren't there. It's the Big E, Excelsior, a smattering of shuttles, and that's it.

In any case, Captain Styles mentions in his conversation with Scotty that the Enterprise was the fastest ship in the fleet prior to the Excelsior arriving on the scene, so it stands to reason that the Excelsior was the only ship that had a realistic chance of catching the Enterprise, and in turn explains why Scotty needed to take its warp drive out of action.

Err-no. Styles says he looks forward to beating the Enterprise's speed records. Which include the ship's Warp drive having been supercharged by aliens from another galaxy, among other things. By the time of STIII, NCC-1701 is scheduled for the scrappers. There's exactly zero evidence Starfleet thought nothing but Excelsior could catch her. Excelsior was merely available.
Furthermore, Scotty sabotaging Excelsior is easily explained by it being the only ship immediately available, and that's ignoring he might have done it on general principles (Scotty wasn't happy with the project in general (for whatever reason) and the Captain of the ship in particular (for pretty obvious ones).

RedImperator wrote:Often in TNG, the other ship was only on-screen for a few minutes, usually dropping somebody off, but there was at least one episode where Enterprise was participating in a blockade fleet with...ten or so other Federation starships.

There were actually 23 ships on that blockade. They might have been able to muster a few more if they hadn't lost those 39 at Wolf 359. You really need to have missed a few key episodes to believe the Big E is all alone out there...

The best ever 'only ship in the sector' example comes from STV...
Enterprise is at Earth (in the AQ) while the crew takes shoreleave, and is called to an emergency at Nimbus III (in the BQ), being told: "You're the only ship in the quadrant!"
No wonder Gene disowned it.

Batman wrote:Not in my copy of the movie there aren't. Do you have a screenshot? I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, but on my copy of the movie those ships simply aren't there. It's the Big E, Excelsior, a smattering of shuttles, and that's it.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schem ... cedock.jpg - it's actually near the upper left of the screen, I'd misremembered its position. I probably had it mixed up with that boxy-looking thing near the bottom right of the screenshot (which I think is supposed to be some sort of cargo ship, although obviously they wouldn't send that after the Enterprise).

Err-no. Styles says he looks forward to beating the Enterprise's speed records. Which include the ship's Warp drive having been supercharged by aliens from another galaxy, among other things. By the time of STIII, NCC-1701 is scheduled for the scrappers. There's exactly zero evidence Starfleet thought nothing but Excelsior could catch her. Excelsior was merely available.
Furthermore, Scotty sabotaging Excelsior is easily explained by it being the only ship immediately available, and that's ignoring he might have done it on general principles (Scotty wasn't happy with the project in general (for whatever reason) and the Captain of the ship in particular (for pretty obvious ones).

Ah, you're right on that one. There was a line that said something to the effect of "You made the Enterprise the fastest ship in the fleet, now we need you to make the Excelsior even faster" in the copy of the script I have, but it didn't make it to the finished film (and was actually said by Admiral Morrow, rather than Styles).

Caught it this time, thanks (memo to self-if you zoom in, stuff at the edges of the screens drops, you know, OFF the screen?). Though I don't think I would have noticed without knowing where to look. So there may have been another ship around (sorry, while that looks like the classic secondary hull/nacelle arrangement of Starfleet ship it's too indistinct to say for certain). It also looks like a rather tiny ship if it is one.

Darth Tedious wrote: The best ever 'only ship in the sector' example comes from STV...
Enterprise is at Earth (in the AQ) while the crew takes shoreleave, and is called to an emergency at Nimbus III (in the BQ), being told: "You're the only ship in the quadrant!"
No wonder Gene disowned it.

Not quite. Bad as the film was.

Kirk retorts "There must be other ships in the quadrant" and is told, yes, "But no experienced commanders...I need Jim Kirk"

Ent-A was sent because, for whatever reason they thought Kirk was best suited to handle the situation.

I'd forgotten about Kirk's snappy comeback.

Kirk retorts "There must be other ships in the quadrant"

But which quadrant, Alpha or Beta? Surely he should have said: "What the hell have you been smoking, Admiral? We're at Earth! Nimbus III's in the Beta Quadrant! It'll take us weeks to get there! I sure hope the guy holding these hostages is patient..."

and is told, yes, "But no experienced commanders...I need Jim Kirk"

The idea that Kirk is the only experienced commander in the whole of Starfleet is pretty scary...

Destructionator XIII wrote:"The quadrent" in the TOS era wasn't referring to the galaxy. It meant more like what they called a "sector" in TNG.

...or something. I think they just used it because it's a cool sounding word.

I wasn't aware of that.

But that makes even less sense... How can Earth and Nimbus III be in the same (smaller sector) Quadrant when they're not even in the same Galactic Quadrant? The more I think about this line, the more it makes my brain hurt.

It doesn't have to mean that Kirk is the only experienced commander in the area - all it means is he's the only one available. All the others may well be tied down with other crises or pressing matters.


That said, it is a silly movie.

Can't we all just pretend it didn't happen? That's what I do.

Uraniun235 wrote:It doesn't have to mean that Kirk is the only experienced commander in the area - all it means is he's the only one available. All the others may well be tied down with other crises or pressing matters.


That said, it is a silly movie.

My actual point was that the area of space being referred to is massive. If there were any experienced captains in the Beta Quadrant, they could have finished whatever business they were doing and been to Nimbus long before the Enterprise got there.
But, given the whole 'center of the galaxy' business, I think it's fair to conclude that the writers of STV failed stellar cartography.

The overall silliness of the movie moots my point anyway...

Stofsk wrote:Can't we all just pretend it didn't happen? That's what I do.

I think this is the best possible solution to the problem.

A seperate thought just occurred to me.
Is it possible to total up the distance covered by Enterprise throughout TNG? (obviously discounting things like the Traveller taking them to the edge ofthe universe and Q sending them to the Delta Quadrant) It seems entirely possible that in seven years, the Big E did more mileage than Voyager would have needed to get home...

I suppose you could come up with a partial figure by working out how long they'd flown at a particular warp factor, then adding all those instances up with the times they explicitly said how far they'd flown. Since they didn't bother giving their journey times in most episodes though, whatever figure you came up with would only begin to scratch the surface of how much flight time the E-D had.

I was just thinking of measuring it out on a map, but Star Trek maps seem to suffer insane levels of contradiction...

This one would suggest that Enterprise probably travelled much further than Voyager did, while this one seems consistant with the 'ZOMG 70 years to get home' figure. Another one concurs with the second, but appears to have been made by Borg fans. There are many more, supporting both sides of the coin, but these three make a fine example of the confusion you get if you try to work out distances in the Trekverse...
It's highly possible that the maps that make Voyager's figures look wrong have been retconned, but who knows.

All of this has makes me realise my direct answer to the OP's question. It bugs me that Trek doesn't have a sensible canon system.

Darth Tedious wrote:I was just thinking of measuring it out on a map, but Star Trek maps seem to suffer insane levels of contradiction...

This one would suggest that Enterprise probably travelled much further than Voyager did, while this one seems consistant with the 'ZOMG 70 years to get home' figure. Another one concurs with the second, but appears to have been made by Borg fans. There are many more, supporting both sides of the coin, but these three make a fine example of the confusion you get if you try to work out distances in the Trekverse...
It's highly possible that the maps that make Voyager's figures look wrong have been retconned, but who knows.

All of this has makes me realise my direct answer to the OP's question. It bugs me that Trek doesn't have a sensible canon system.

It really could benefit from a deep, thorough ret-conning to bring everything in line with everything else, followed by the creation of a canon bible...but that would be quite difficult to set up at this point, not to mention expensive.

If I was going to think of something you can actually complain about regarding Star Trek (other than what soem of the Writers did, that is.. since its usually writers.. or at least certain writers, who can be blamed for some of it) its probably the lost opportunitites that present themselves. TNG for example did a petty good job of introducing lots of interesting concepts, but then ruining themor failing to carry through on them. The Borg, the Ferengi, the Cardassians (Although that is forgivable given DS9) and so on. Hell remember the early season episode where the Federation is getting infiltrated by those wormlike thingies? I always remember feeling that was a pretty cool episode, but far too short and self contained. What if they had built that into an arc? What if instead of Best of Both Worlds being a two part thing, they had built it up over the entire season (or even half season) and then concluded the next season? What if they'd actually continued with the Ferengi rather than making them caricatures later on (which was only partly remedied by DS9.)

As far as the "The Enterprise is everywhere and involved in all the important stuff" issue, that's easily resolved. Out of universe we know it was done because the show had to be about the enterprise crew. Out of universe is easily resolved simply by the fact we know from the start and the end that the Q had continued to test humanity. Its easy to figure that given how often Q himself focused on the Enterprise and Picard (which was a common thread throughout the series) that many of the events that seemingly happen only around the Enterprise are quite deliberate. Hell, we know that the whole bit with the Borg was instigated by Q, after all. It's not much of a stretch to figure they might engineer other tests.

Hell we might even rationalize the whole "too many/too few" federation ships in that idea. I think one of the over-arcing themes of TNG (and one that was greatly under-used) was that Humanity had gotten too complacent and too settled in its "niche" and needed to get back to the roots of the exploration and discovery. Or hell, that the universe wasn't a nice, perfect, idealistic dangerous place. That would have fit in well with DS9's overall themes.. and with voyager, had Voyager been more consistent.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Hell remember the early season episode where the Federation is getting infiltrated by those wormlike thingies? I always remember feeling that was a pretty cool episode, but far too short and self contained. What if they had built that into an arc?

They actually did plan to make those aliens a recurring threat. However, there were problems realizing them on-screen, and apparently Roddenberry didn't like them anyway, hence why they came up with the Borg the following year.

What if they'd actually continued with the Ferengi rather than making them caricatures later on (which was only partly remedied by DS9.)

Probably because "The Last Outpost" (the episode in which they were introduced) got the lowest viewing figures of any episode in TNG history, along with audience feedback that could only be considered catastrophic. "The Battle" did a bit better on those fronts and convinced the writers that they were good for an occasional threat, but they never really got over how mishandled their introduction was.

'Conspiracy' was the episode the bugs came from, and I would have definitely liked to see them return, if only so they didn't just become yet another Enemy of The WeekTM.
Personally, I felt that 'The Last Outpost' was a pretty ordinary episode in and of itself, not because of the Ferengi. I distinctly remember being excited about the introduction of a new species/threat (I was very young at the time). The Ferengi only became more of a joke as time went on, especially with the Ménage à Troi incident. Then again, anything involving L'Waxana tends to be a joke...
The one species I would have really liked to see more of was the Shelliac. They had so much potential as an enemy- a non-humanoid species with little or nothing known about them besides their hatred of humanoids. Could have made for a potent enemy.

Connor MacLeod wrote:What if instead of Best of Both Worlds being a two part thing, they had built it up over the entire season (or even half season) and then concluded the next season?

This idea would have been pure gold. Basically, if TNG had handled the Borg the way ENT handled the Xindi. As ordinary as Enterprise was, I found myself compeled to keep watching as more and more was revealed about the Xindi. I guess I get fascinated by new and different species.

Darth Tedious wrote:'Conspiracy' was the episode the bugs came from, and I would have definitely liked to see them return, if only so they didn't just become yet another Enemy of The WeekTM.
Personally, I felt that 'The Last Outpost' was a pretty ordinary episode in and of itself, not because of the Ferengi. I distinctly remember being excited about the introduction of a new species/threat (I was very young at the time). The Ferengi only became more of a joke as time went on, especially with the Ménage à Troi incident. Then again, anything involving L'Waxana tends to be a joke...
The one species I would have really liked to see more of was the Shelliac. They had so much potential as an enemy- a non-humanoid species with little or nothing known about them besides their hatred of humanoids. Could have made for a potent enemy.

Connor MacLeod wrote:What if instead of Best of Both Worlds being a two part thing, they had built it up over the entire season (or even half season) and then concluded the next season?

This idea would have been pure gold. Basically, if TNG had handled the Borg the way ENT handled the Xindi. As ordinary as Enterprise was, I found myself compeled to keep watching as more and more was revealed about the Xindi. I guess I get fascinated by new and different species.

At least according to Memory Alpha, the original intent with "Conspiracy" was to have the bugs take the role later filled by the Borg; budget issues led to them making the Borg cyborgs rather than insectile, and the connection between the two never materialized.

Molyneux wrote:At least according to Memory Alpha, the original intent with "Conspiracy" was to have the bugs take the role later filled by the Borg; budget issues led to them making the Borg cyborgs rather than insectile, and the connection between the two never materialized.

I'm aware of that. It not only gives me no consolation, but makes me unhappier. It means that not just one, but two potentials went unfulfilled.