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Purple wrote:Both of you are missing the point. The Federation has time and time again demonstrated the willingness to ignore rule violations if they turn out good in the end. The entire Federation philosophy seems to be: "Who gives a dam about rules and principals, its the end result that counts."

I was well aware of this point, I even mentioned it.
My point however is that even if Starfleet continue to be squeemish Janeway is STILL guilty of a crime and should have been punished for it.

Additionally, a pragmatic Federation would keep an eye on Janeway to make sure she dosent abuse her power like she has clearly done in the past whenever she takes a fancy. If she was just going to save puppies at the sake of her own life - Ok, slap on the wrist

When she is literally messing with politics of foreign races and altering the timeline of the entire galaxy including the Federation to address her own whims - thats someone you should be wary of.

Spock - "Needs of the many outweight the needs of the one"
Janeway - "My needs are the only ones that matter, the universe will obey and fuck anyone who even dares to question me"

I believe Scorpian demonstrated this attitude rather nicely and Endgame does so again.

There are two possible case scenarios here:
1. There is one single real timeline and they know exactly what the correct time line is. In that case what ever she does is unimportant. As long as it turns out fine for the Federation the motivation or legality of an action are irrelevant. And if it turns out badly they can always go back and kill her to undo her actions.

2. There is no single real timeline or they simply do not know exactly what the correct time line is. In that case again what ever she does is unimportant. After all they can not know how it will turn out and they bloody well can't fix her actions or even stop her. After all how do they know it is not what is meant to be?

In both cases they simply have no case.

Purple wrote: There are two possible case scenarios here:
1. There is one single real timeline and they know exactly what the correct time line is. In that case what ever she does is unimportant. As long as it turns out fine for the Federation the motivation or legality of an action are irrelevant. And if it turns out badly they can always go back and kill her to undo her actions.

2. There is no single real timeline or they simply do not know exactly what the correct time line is. In that case again what ever she does is unimportant. After all they can not know how it will turn out and they bloody well can't fix her actions or even stop her. After all how do they know it is not what is meant to be?

In both cases they simply have no case.

Starfleet has directives and regulations that it's personnel have to adhere to.
Janeway openly defied a directive with a history of doing so when it suits her.
Someone who has trouble following the chain of command should be punished or get kicked out of that chain.
Kinda fucking hilarious how Janeway bitches and moans at others to follow Starfleet's mantras but turns around and breaks them herself.

That things turned out fine does NOTHING to change this fact.
Janeway's 'motivation' was to serve herself regardless of the consequences of her actions.
As a command officer that demonstrates a failure in responsibility and judgement.

If she decided to steal an extra replicator ration: Thats trivial
When she is literally deciding to play GOD with time: I consider the motivations and actions to be mightily important given the scale of what the consequences could be.

PREDATOR490 wrote:That things turned out fine does NOTHING to change this fact.
Janeway's 'motivation' was to serve herself regardless of the consequences of her actions.
As a command officer that demonstrates a failure in responsibility and judgement.

And there is the problem with your reasoning. If you recall the episode when that Bejoran officer appears the first time and the one with the Klingon civil war when Data refuses a direct order and does his thing you will remember Picard almost explicitly saying quite the opposite. Starfleet wants risk takers, people who for reasons known only to them self and fueled by nothing but their own self confidence take such chances, break the rules and regulations of Starfleet, as long as of course they achieve positive results.

Starfleet is not really organized in these terms like a normal army would be. Otherwise half of it's famous crew from the series would be in prison or at least North Pole duty.

If she decided to steal an extra replicator ration: Thats trivial

Actually that is the importmant one as it is a breaking of the rules that does not provide a net positive result for Starfleet.

When she is literally deciding to play GOD with time: I consider the motivations and actions to be mightily important given the scale of what the consequences could be.

And Starfleet seems to think exatcly the opposite of you. It's not the motivation that counts or even if the rules are broken as long as it works out fine in the end. That is why for example we have the situation where Janeway who has broken rules (big ones at that) getting promoted for it because it turned out fine and Picard who has stuck to the rules and his principals (in not genociding the Borg) being scolded. It is in many ways the same ultimate expression of pragmatism that let Starfleet use Section 31 to deploy bio weapons.

Purple wrote:Both of you are missing the point. The Federation has time and time again demonstrated the willingness to ignore rule violations if they turn out good in the end. The entire Federation philosophy seems to be: "Who gives a dam about rules and principals, its the end result that counts."

Ahem:

Me earlier in this thread wrote:As long as the results are beneficial to the Federation, Starfleet accepts time travel, all precedents support this, period.

Ok, in light of your post I concede that the use of the word ALL was misplaced and submit a replacement phrase "most of you" in it's place.

Purple wrote:If you recall the episode when that Bejoran officer appears the first time and the one with the Klingon civil war when Data refuses a direct order and does his thing you will remember Picard almost explicitly saying quite the opposite.

I'm sure the military members of the board will correct me if I'm wrong, but violating orders as Data did wouldn't necessarily be a punishable offense even in a stricter military organization. IIRC, there are usually allowances for breaking the orders of a superior office if A) there are mitigating circumstances that affect the orders and B) the superior officer isn't available to consult for further guidelines. As a simplistic example, if an officer ordered a platoon to attack a particular building to destroy an enemy unit therein but the platoon leader on the ground observed that said enemy unit had moved to a different building and the PL was for some reason unable to communicate with his superior, he could instead attack the other building and probably would not be charged with violating orders.

IIRC, in Data's case his modification achieved the same effect that Picard's orders were meant to (namely finding a way to detect the cloaked Romulan vessels) but he did not have time to consult Picard for modified orders before the window of opportunity passed. Even in more restrictive military hierarchy than Starfleet's (say, the modern US military) Data would probably not have been charged with disobeying orders under the circumstances, though there might have been an inquiry afterward to establish for the record that Data's actions demonstrated appropriate initiative rather than a criminal violation of orders.

OTOH, there's likely a political element to be considered in Janeway's case as well. Given the hero status she likely achieved with the public after bringing Voyager home, the brass might have wished to avoid the public backlash of court-martialing Janeway and instead opted to shuffle her off to a position where she wouldn't be placed in the position to make the same kinds of questionable judgments that she did in getting her ship home. And for anyone wondering why the military would care about public opinion in regards to Janeway, keep in mind that Starfleet seems for them most part as beholden to the civilian government of the Federation as the US military is to the American government and admirals who make the constituents unhappy might find themselves getting bent over by elected representatives when the next round of resource allocation decisions are made.

It should be noted that in ST:IV, Kirk went back in time, not to change anything, but to acquire an item, (the whales), that was listed as disapearing anyways. I could even be argued that Kirk's actions directly led to the extintion in the first place, thereby dictating that he MUST go back and take the whale to insure the timeline.

Let me clarify that a bit. Kirk goes back, takes whales. Lets say this puts the whale population below sustainability threshold, causin extinction in that species. This lead to the probe attacking Earth. Leads to Kirk going back in time... ect. ect.

Alien-Carrot wrote:It should be noted that in ST:IV, Kirk went back in time, not to change anything, but to acquire an item, (the whales), that was listed as disapearing anyways. I could even be argued that Kirk's actions directly led to the extintion in the first place, thereby dictating that he MUST go back and take the whale to insure the timeline.

Let me clarify that a bit. Kirk goes back, takes whales. Lets say this puts the whale population below sustainability threshold, causin extinction in that species. This lead to the probe attacking Earth. Leads to Kirk going back in time... ect. ect.

For a species to be placed on the endangered species list, which Humpback Whales were at the time, the species must be in danger of facing extinction due to their numbers being targeted by humans, losing habitat, introduced species, or other factors. The loss of two humpback whales would not have an effect, because unless they were critically endangered (which they weren't), there are still dozens, maybe even hundreds of individuals. A mating pair of humpbacks going missing won't be missed, and would have died anyway had Kirk and crew not gotten involved.

The biggest concern for Earth after the return of Kirk and crew to Earth and releasing their new whales would be the limited availability of genetic stock to continue the species. IIRC, in animal husbandry, a male can reproduce with its female offspring with little genetic degradation, but a female cannot mate with its male offspring. So, best case scenario would be that the two whales gave birth to a female, allowing the male to mate with both and continue the species.

A mating pair of humpbacks going missing won't be missed, and would have died anyway had Kirk and crew not gotten involved.

Having no knowledge of husbandry or the dynamics of inbreeding, i will concede this.
It still leave the point of kirk not INTENDING to cause any timeline changes, and did it for the betterment of mankind, (not to mention the klingon ships/planets they said were affected), whereas Janeway intentionally fucked up the timeline for what amounts to personal gain. Notice she didnt go all the way back to the caretaker and save ALL her crew, just the 2 people she really wanted to.

The UFP had advanced genetics or possibly in contact with other civilizations who were good at genetics, so the hazards of inbreeding whales could've been negated with 23rd century science (perhaps artificially incepted hunchback whales who had their DNA switched about and added to, to improve their genetic diversity for sustainable reproduction).

And "Endgame" was clearly a half-baked hybrid of earlier, better VOY stories, "Scorpion" and "Timeless", episodes that were popular and successful, and so the overstretched and burned out writers/producers (concentrating on Enterprise's first season) decided to keep blindly hammering on with what worked best.

IIRC, in animal husbandry, a male can reproduce with its female offspring with little genetic degradation

If this is true, they could just use the enforced gender method from Jurassic Park to ensure female offspring, along with genemod therapy to reduce deformities.