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Yes. You're stupid enough to think that armor's chief purpose is to violate conservation of momentum, rather than protect the wearer from the effects of that momentum. Police officers can still get knocked down by a bullet even though they wear kevlar, and storm troopers get knocked over when they get beaned in the head with big fucking rocks. What is so hard to understand about this?vakundok wrote:Please? Kevlar? According to me?Durandal wrote:vakundok: Here's an experiment for you to try. Go get a kevlar vest. Put it on. Go out to the highway. Wait for a truck to come. Jump in front of it.
According to you, if kevlar is so good, it should be able to stop the truck dead in its tracks. Please tell us if your hypothesis holds up.
Only the thing that I wrote nothing about kevlar ....Durandal wrote:Yes. You're stupid enough to think that armor's chief purpose is to violate conservation of momentum, rather than protect the wearer from the effects of that momentum. Police officers can still get knocked down by a bullet even though they wear kevlar, and storm troopers get knocked over when they get beaned in the head with big fucking rocks. What is so hard to understand about this?vakundok wrote:Please? Kevlar? According to me?Durandal wrote:vakundok: Here's an experiment for you to try. Go get a kevlar vest. Put it on. Go out to the highway. Wait for a truck to come. Jump in front of it.
According to you, if kevlar is so good, it should be able to stop the truck dead in its tracks. Please tell us if your hypothesis holds up.
Torso sized ?Torso sized holes in what is likely concrete from hand blasters
Looked more like a blasting charge of some sort rather than a blaster if you are referring to the detention area door.rmored doors being blown to smithereens with the equivalent of a SMG
From, IIRC, something described as a "laser" that didnt act like a blaster weapon at all....second-tier canon, and we have a probot vaporizing a wampa with a fullpower blast.
please do....And we've not even gone into the official material even.
Oh and just becase it could pierce the armor doesn't mean it'll blow the tank up, thats what you where thinking I bet.
More like a crater or hole on the armor is what one ought to expect, nothing that'll hurt the tank, not without many repeated shots.
Funny how that happened a lot in AOTC, Im sadly unimpressed by many things that are supposed to have KT effects in AOTC, those Geonosian fighters in particular.we didn't see anywhere near KT level effects
Yes, we saw that blaster cannons of the AT-STs were barely enough to take out a relative young tree, but stormtrooper blaster can possibly take out a present day tank
Yeah those too against armored walls in both ANH and TESB.Torso sized ?
what happened to fist sized ?
It wasn't, you hear the blaster shot coincide with the explosion.Looked more like a blasting charge of some sort rather than a blaster if you are referring to the detention area door
Bridge scene? wtf are you talking about?Also, if blasters could do that sort of thing, why did they not blast through the door in the bridge scen in ANH, surely it would be quicker than playing with the computer
Because they didn't need to, they found the princess and opened the door without any trouble, why waste ammo?And why would that door be stronger than the Detention area door if that was why they didnt blast it ?
They're all called lasers, and since it's not a visual you don't have any grounds for such a statement.From, IIRC, something described as a "laser" that didnt act like a blaster weapon at all...
Why? The truth is here with the movies, can't get much more solid.please do....
That would not be going inwards to the tank, but outwards from the impact site so unless they fire another shot into the insides of the tank they wouldn't be facing many problems.So now its a crater ?...nice.
Are you seriously telling me a weapon that can punch through IIRC 400-600mm of chobham armour, isnt going to kill the crew via superheated gas, armour shards etc ?
They're not supposed to have KT effects in those situations, they'd be counter productive, if not down right dangerous.Funny how that happened a lot in AOTC, Im sadly unimpressed by many things that are supposed to have KT effects in AOTC, those Geonosian fighters in particular
*sigh*white_rabbit wrote:Yes, we saw that blaster cannons of the AT-STs were barely enough to take out a relative young tree, but stormtrooper blaster can possibly take out a present day tank
They...didnt want to KILL the small furry Ewoks and rebels....cause they were so cute and furry...so they turned the guns down!!!!
*gibbers*
Should I give up discussing when I am faced with your resistance to honest objective interpreptation of the evidence provided?I gave up discussing when I faced with
We don't ever see a stormtrooper knocked out by any slings, just knocked of their feet, so an explosive bullet might knock a stormtrooper of his feet, but I don't even see any mentions of explosive bullets."Ewok slings knocked out stormtroopers but no, 10 mm explosive bullets canot do that."
This is said where?with "Yes, we saw stormtroopers taken out by nearby explosions but no, 30 mm grenades canot produce such explosions"
Who says they can, thats just the range of the weapon, and it requires a tripod.with "Yes, stormtroopers regularly missed within 100 metres, but no, they can take out marines from 10 kms"
A gunship has never exploded from crashing to the rocks.with "A gunship would most likely explode from a crashing to the rocks, but no, a volley of 150 mm rockets canot destroy it"
I dunno, you're obvoiusly not here for any rational, objective interpreptation of the evidence, so why are you here?and with "Yes, we saw that blaster cannons of the AT-STs were barely enough to take out a relative young tree, but stormtrooper blaster can possibly take out a present day tank"
Dishonest and deceitfull I'd say.And do you label me as stupid? Well, maybe you are right. That is all I can say
The blast that hit the flyer blew straight through passing nearly none of it's power to the materials in the flyer, it could have been an AT-St shot and not done more damage since it only hit a piece of what I presume to be leather of some kind.The movie suggests that it was an accidental hit from a stormtrooper blaster. Can you see the passing blast? It is nearly invisible but it is there. Can such a low damage cause a blast to loose most of its power? The smallest weapon we saw was the gun of the scout trooper
Blasters don't penetrate that well, a fullpower blast(assuming the rifle had enough ammo, that it was not too hot from previous) might have caused the log to break in two, it'd have been more effective to fire medium blasts at/near them from another position.Why did not that stormtrooper fire at the ewoks through the tree? It had more than enough time
Also take into account power settings, we've seen far more damage from weaker weapons.The movie suggests that it was a targeted hit from a stormtrooper blaster. From the first shot it is clear that the blast hit Leia, not the wall next to her. And caused only minimal damage or the rebell tunic was extremely energy resistant.
Possibly, but this is a filming flub, the armor is really made of PCP, though an explanation that does not violate suspension of disbelief would be that the armor might have been defective, or that the shoulder pads are not as strongly armored as the chest and limb areas, or it could have been previous damage, maybe from shrapnel.The movie suggests that it was broken by kinetic impact.
I will be out for the weekend, so have a nice weekend!
[/img]And then there's the navel trooper in ANH that takes a blaster bolt to the gut and goes flying backwards.Here are some blaster shots:
Wandering in for a moment, that may be referring to a ten millimeter pistol round, since AFAIK no 10mm rifle exists. The pulse rifle is likely to have much greater momentum.His Divine Shadow wrote:a 180 grain(one mass figure I found for a 10mm) bullet at 1000m/s would have 12kg*m/s of momentum, now due to the nature of clone armor, it would not really hurt, it's rigid, unlike kevlar, but it'd definitly knock a human down.
phongn wrote:Wandering in for a moment, that may be referring to a ten millimeter pistol round, since AFAIK no 10mm rifle exists. The pulse rifle is likely to have much greater momentum.His Divine Shadow wrote:a 180 grain(one mass figure I found for a 10mm) bullet at 1000m/s would have 12kg*m/s of momentum, now due to the nature of clone armor, it would not really hurt, it's rigid, unlike kevlar, but it'd definitly knock a human down.
Viable yields have never been suggested, but we do know they have variable payloads. There's a difference.His Divine Shadow wrote:
Not to rain on your parade but the missiles have variable yields.
It's also unlikely it was truly weak enough to be damaged by the fall.Being defective is unlikely in my opinion. The shoulder (upper arm) armor being poorer quality then limb armor is unlikely too. The movie suggests that this stormtrooper was one of the two that were kicked out of balance and fell/rolled a few metres previously. If it is true there were no visible previous damage.
Except his buddies around him shooting back and having superior visual/audio sensors and a functional NBC system, it'd also be a very close range fight if the marine would have enough time to get close enough.You wrote that a hit from a 10mm weapon could knock a clonetrooper down even without using explosive or AP bullet. In my opinion a knocked down clonetrooper canot stop a marine from coming short range and using the grenade launcher or meele range and killing the clonetrooper with a knife
And objective interpreptation says it's not since the majority of every last weapon impact has been far more powerfull than that, it was weaker than the average blast, hence it's likely to be a weaker than normal shot.In my opinion the shot that hit Leia was the normal (maybe only) power setting for the stormtrooper blaster.
Filming error or some other random event due to the design of the suit made the vaporized part of the armor go in a downwards direction, lifting the trooper into the air.(Side note: The stormtrooper in ANH was thrown up but Solo fired slightly downwards.)
But as you said, it's only opinion, disproven by AOTC where they where used successfully at 1km> ranges.In my opinion the weapon range is in favour of the clone troopers but the stormtroopers (and most likely their predecessors as well) does not seem to be able to use this range advantage
No they where not used against fighters, since they have Kt level shields the dropship could only have hurt them with it's missiles.And when the marines are withing firing range they will have the advantage of the far higher rate of fire
Only of which lucky hits will be succesfull though, and a shot from a clone-rifle will have a small area effect, clones will see in darkness, smoke, any weather really, will not suffer from gas attacks of radioactive enviroments.
They could nervegas them without problems.
But as you say, it's opinion, just as well you leave that at home.In my opinion a volley (32) of 150mm rockets is enough to penetrate the shield of a gunship and destroy it
The beam weapons of the gunship are interesting since they were not used against the geonosian fighters. At least I was unable to see it
I imagined that the other clonetroopers had the same problem since the marine was not alone too.His Divine Shadow wrote:Except his buddies around him shooting back and having superior visual/audio sensors and a functional NBC system, it'd also be a very close range fight if the marine would have enough time to get close enough.You wrote that a hit from a 10mm weapon could knock a clonetrooper down even without using explosive or AP bullet. In my opinion a knocked down clonetrooper canot stop a marine from coming short range and using the grenade launcher or meele range and killing the clonetrooper with a knife
And objective interpreptation says it's not since the majority of every last weapon impact has been far more powerfull than that, it was weaker than the average blast, hence it's likely to be a weaker than normal shot.And you're definitly not being objective, bucko, then again, everyone in these debates have some motive to make their side win.That it's the only setting is a dirty rotten lie, we know for a fact, utter complete, explicit fact, that they have multiple power settings, the movies alone prove this.In my opinion the shot that hit Leia was the normal (maybe only) power setting for the stormtrooper blaster.
Really? Was it shown that a clonetrooper targeted something (farther than a kilometer) and hit it without changing scene? I canot remember. But if it is true the clonetroopers can really massacre the marines from long range.But as you said, it's only opinion, disproven by AOTC where they where used successfully at 1km> ranges.In my opinion the weapon range is in favour of the clone troopers but the stormtroopers (and most likely their predecessors as well) does not seem to be able to use this range advantage
Thats objective fact.
I also missed this. Would you be so kind to show some screenshots showing definitely this?and a shot from a clone-rifle will have a small area effect
Well stormtroopers missed Han when he was in the center of a narrow tunnel (prison, DS1), and in TESB Artoo produced covering smoke that seemed to work against stormtroopers.clones will see in darkness, smoke
It is true, definitely. But how many times did we see gas attacks in SW? I think it would be helpfull in capturing the Tantive IV.will not suffer from gas attacks of radioactive enviroments
Sorry, I thought it was a discussion. I have no datas on the exact capability of such a rocket, not even on their payload. Why don't you say that their payload is a presently existing something and can only produce an exlosion 0.000x KT while the shield of the gunship can resist against 0.0x KT explosions?But as you say, it's opinion, just as well you leave that at home.In my opinion a volley (32) of 150mm rockets is enough to penetrate the shield of a gunship and destroy it
And why they were not used against Dooku? They tried to stop him at all costs if I remeber well?No they where not used against fighters, since they have Kt level shields the dropship could only have hurt them with it's missiles.The beam weapons of the gunship are interesting since they were not used against the geonosian fighters. At least I was unable to see it
But the clonetroopers have more punch and the scope on their weapons is tied into their hud = better accuracy and the clone-rifles can fire full-auto.I imagined that the other clonetroopers had the same problem since the marine was not alone too
You obvoiusly don't know how to gauge the yields of shots if you feel that the vauge look/size of a blast impact is something to use, what you use if their effects on materials(like how they vaporize fist sized chunks of metal in ANH, and shatter torso sized concrete slabs), suffice to say that pretty much every shot in ANH and the rest of the prequels showed more powerfull impacts, if a shot like the ones fired on the DS in ANH had hit Leia's arm, the arm would have been blown away.Well I watched that avi about Solo's escape and I saw a few blasts producing the same visible effect, but it is only my opinion of course
He wasn't trying to hurt the bunker, he was trying to get a snapshot at Leia.In this case why did that stormtrooper use a low powered shot when even a full power shot could not hurt the bunker?
Remember the scene where the two armies approach each other? Remember all the fire traversing inbetween them?Really? Was it shown that a clonetrooper targeted something (farther than a kilometer) and hit it without changing scene? I canot remember. But if it is true the clonetroopers can really massacre the marines from long range
The area effect being that they produce shrapnel, it's basic physics, if a quick energy pulse hits a rock, it will cause the rock to explode, you can also watch the clip of Solo's pistol causing explosions.I also missed this. Would you be so kind to show some screenshots showing definitely this?
Yes but it could also have killed the princess, that would have bought the troopers a guided tour of the hull of the star destroyer, without helmets.It is true, definitely. But how many times did we see gas attacks in SW? I think it would be helpfull in capturing the Tantive IV
I thought it was a debate, and without actual usable data, what good are opinions if there's nothing to back them up?Sorry, I thought it was a discussion
Their payload is a maximum of 100 kiloton rockets(amongst other types of missiles of variable yields and payloads), and the shields of the gunship can withstand an unknown amount of enemy fire and pretty much a practically unlimited amount of small arms fire.Why did not you say that their payload is a presently existing something and can only produce an exlosion 0.000x KT while the shield of the gunship can resist against 0.0x KT explosions?
The lasers? I dunno, they said they where out of missiles in the movie, in the novellisation of the movie they say "ordinance" instead, maybe they meant that their missiles and energy reserves for their beam weapons where depleted.And why they were not used against Dooku? They tried to stop him at all costs if I remeber well?
It is a good feature, but:His Divine Shadow wrote:But the clonetroopers have more punch and the scope on their weapons is tied into their hud = better accuracy and the clone-rifles can fire full-auto.
You are right but do not forget that we did not see what kind of blaster weapon they used to get through the door of the elevator.You obvoiusly don't know how to gauge the yields of shots if you feel that the vauge look/size of a blast impact is something to use, what you use if their effects on materials(like how they vaporize fist sized chunks of metal in ANH, and shatter torso sized concrete slabs), suffice to say that pretty much every shot in ANH and the rest of the prequels showed more powerfull impacts, if a shot like the ones fired on the DS in ANH had hit Leia's arm, the arm would have been blown away.
Yes, but:He wasn't trying to hurt the bunker, he was trying to get a snapshot at Leia.
And this was well into the fight, lowering the power level to somewhere where a torso hit would be lethal would allow many more shots.
I remember, but were those shots well targeted or only fired toward the enemy? Snipers can hit targets a kilometer away using present day rifles (farther than their official range). And as I know the official range of pulse rifle is 500 m.Remember the scene where the two armies approach each other? Remember all the fire traversing inbetween them?
We also have a clone trooper later on firing uselessly at a geonosian fighter at ranges of ~500m>.
I think a 10 mm explosive bullet also produces shrapnel, but it is not referred as an area effect weapon.The area effect being that they produce shrapnel, it's basic physics
I meant a non-lethal gas.Yes but it could also have killed the princess
True. But with no datas the theory that a gunship can survive an attack (missile volley) from a dropship is also only an idea, isn't it?without actual usable data, what good are opinions if there's nothing to back them up?
Sorry, I asked the rockets of the dropship.Their payload is a maximum of 100 kiloton rockets(amongst other types of missiles of variable yields and payloads), and the shields of the gunship can withstand an unknown amount of enemy fire and pretty much a practically unlimited amount of small arms fire.
If I remeber well the gunship has at least four beam weapon, so battle damage is unlikely. Maybe it was the only occassion we could saw an energy weapon depleting during battle. (The guns of the Slave1 were said to be depleted after the single shot at Kamino, but the Slave1 was only standby mode that time.)The lasers? I dunno, they said they where out of missiles in the movie, in the novellisation of the movie they say "ordinance" instead, maybe they meant that their missiles and energy reserves for their beam weapons where depleted.And why they were not used against Dooku? They tried to stop him at all costs if I remeber well?
It makes no sense not to fire at the flyer when their energy weapons are physically capable of such a thing, it could also be battle damage.
It's in the Episode 2 ICS. No one makes this stuff up mate.vakundok wrote: It is a good feature, but:
-Is it confirmed?
-Was this (excelent) feature deleted later, since stormtroopers targeted in normal manner?
That's a point for the clonetroopers, not the marines. One hit from a clonetrooper rifle and the marine is reduced to red paste.A knocked down trooper canot fire for a few seconds. In my opinion, during this time it can suffer further "knocking down" shots and remain ineffective.
They wanted them alive: "Freeze, don't move!"Yes, but:
-We see only rare single shots.
-It would be more effective to use a full power shot that could clear the entrance even when it did not hit those rebells.
The tripod, stablizied range of the clonetrooper rifle is 10km. That indicates tremendous lethality for an infantry firearm- at that range, as in modern combat, massed weapons fire would've been effective- you don't sharpshoot at that range.I remember, but were those shots well targeted or only fired toward the enemy? Snipers can hit targets a kilometer away using present day rifles (farther than their official range). And as I know the official range of pulse rifle is 500 m.
Oh come off it. A 10mm bullet couldn't carry nearly enough explosive to have the effect that we know a blaster has. Don't be dense.I think a 10 mm explosive bullet also produces shrapnel, but it is not referred as an area effect weapon.
Hardly, considering there's no technology the USMC has that remotely impresses me in Star Wars terms. Gunships are shielded. USMC loses.True. But with no datas the theory that a gunship can survive an attack (missile volley) from a dropship is also only an idea, isn't it?
Yes, in the ICS or the Visual Dictionary, cannot remember which, MW's page on AOTC I believe has sources.It is a good feature, but:
-Is it confirmed?
I dunno really.-Was this (excelent) feature deleted later, since stormtroopers targeted in normal manner?
In that time the guy who fired could also be a smouldering corpse.A knocked down trooper canot fire for a few seconds. In my opinion, during this time it can suffer further "knocking down" shots and remain ineffective.
But the sound of a blaster firing is heard just before/when the door explodes, likely a stormie turned his gun all the way up and fired a blast, full blast is rarely used since it can overheat the weapon with just a few shots and quickly drains the powerpacks.You are right but do not forget that we did not see what kind of blaster weapon they used to get through the door of the elevator
We're not sure that applies here, the bunker is made of armor after all, we dunno what effect a weapon could have on it, shrapnel might be minimal, the guy might simply not have enough ammo for such a weapon, his weapon might simply not be capable of a full power shot from extended wear and tear or other battle damage, or he might just not have time to stop and turn the dial up, he might have been spotted and shot before he could have fired even once then.Yes, but:
-We see only rare single shots.
-It would be more effective to use a full power shot that could clear the entrance even when it did not hit those rebells.
I dunno about well targeted, they just sprayed blaster bolts in the general direction of the enemy.I remember, but were those shots well targeted or only fired toward the enemy? Snipers can hit targets a kilometer away using present day rifles (farther than their official range). And as I know the official range of pulse rifle is 500 m
Do the imps even have those?I meant a non-lethal gas
No idea there.Sorry, I asked the rockets of the dropship.
Was that in the novel?If I remeber well the gunship has at least four beam weapon, so battle damage is unlikely. Maybe it was the only occassion we could saw an energy weapon depleting during battle. (The guns of the Slave1 were said to be depleted after the single shot at Kamino, but the Slave1 was only standby mode that time.)
