Some thoughts having watched Andromeda

[Ahriman238]

Let's see-the US Navy managed to fit roughly a hundred aircraft considerably larger than slipfighters and 6,000 people on aircraft carriers a fraction the size of a GHC. Yes, I rather think that works.

Ah. [checks numbers] Conceded. Though, I still think length/beam/draft numbers mean little when those dimensions enclose so much empty space becasue of the wing-loop things.

Despite that, a crew of at most 40 or so androids and sentients is two orders of magnitude less than her stated complement of 4000. Also, the Andromeda wiki lists her officer/enlsited ratio as 1/11, which is lower than other ships which mostly seem to be 1/8.

Well, one source says 40, the show's wiki where I got my numbers from (and man, there is a wiki for everything) says 4,000 but realize that's as many androids as crew. I still wonder why the oh-so-peaceful Commonwealth carried almost twice as many marines as crew men.

a crew of at most 40 or so androids and sentients is two orders of magnitude less than her stated complement of 4000

If that's a reference to my edit about crew sizes, I meant how every other Commonwealth ship class needs two or three hundred crew but Andromeda uses four thousand. That's a pretty substanial leap. Is Andromeda that much vaster and more capable than other Commonwealth ships? Did it have some revolutionary new technology? Not that we know of. It just seems odd.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Andromeda and her sisters are arguably the only real capital ships in the High Guard. All other ships are built to support/escort them in HCBG's or operate independently as scouts/couriers/research ships and whatnot.

Givne the difference in size between the XMC's that the next largest warship, the DSA I/II class ships, I don't see it as being that much of a problem, especially when the XMC is meant to have a very wide range of abilities, from combat to diplomacy to recon to exploration. Each of those things would require crew, more so than on what is essentially a glorfied missile barge like the DSA's.

[PREDATOR490]

Andromeda is the equivelent of a Star Trek Galaxy-class. Jack of all trades with everything seemingly shoved into it based on a general purpose mission profile.

TARDIS technology - Hardly required at all given her size although the show obviously has issues scaling Andromeda to the numbers. Not a unique problem.

If the US can slap 6000 people on an aircraft carrier
It dosent seem that silly the CW will slap 4000 people on a Fighter Carrier / Warship / Mobile Base / Exploration ship / Whatever-we-might-need ship

Crew wise - 4000 people is really a small amount of people to put on a ship with the capabilities and job spec of Andromeda in a universe that has three galaxies to draw forces from.

[Connor MacLeod]

The firepower thing is actually somewhat misleading. Yes, they can chuck around gigatons per second (I actually hear the AP cannons are more powerful) but it has to be balanced against the extreme manuverability/acceleration, lightspeed lag, and godawful huge ranges of Andromeda. Oh, and the point defense capability. It's basically Honor Harrington in principle with kinetic warheads and less age of sail. I multi megaton missile will actually wreck a GHC if it hits and the ship is totally undefended (no point defense, no battle blades, no AG fields) but it can survive several hits with defenses.

It's also quite possible that they need those long ranges to help let the missiles accelerate up to full velocity - I dont remember if they actually shoot out of the launchers at near-c velocities or not and simply have missiel guidance or whatever. Given the mass lightening magitech it could go either way.

also I'm not sure the firepower is THAt lopsided compared to SW (there are lots more insane than SW) and SW doesnt always use "max firepower" against targets either. Range and acceleration might be nice touches, but that matches up against universes with greater FTL precision (SW being one, ST another, etc.) Imagine detecting the salvo, then FTLing behind it, up close to the enemy, and blasting them to pieces with a single salvo. Hell Trek could fight a GHC if they play their cards right (if they get hit by more than a few missiles, yes, they're fucked, but FTL gives them some significant advantages against Andromeda combat styles.)

Things get wonkier once you start throwing all the weird shit in like phasing, tesserecting and nova bombs, but I hate going too far into that because it usually ends up with yet more "comic book tactics" territory.

[Thanas]

If that's a reference to my edit about crew sizes, I meant how every other Commonwealth ship class needs two or three hundred crew but Andromeda uses four thousand. That's a pretty substanial leap. Is Andromeda that much vaster and more capable than other Commonwealth ships? Did it have some revolutionary new technology? Not that we know of. It just seems odd.

She carries lancers (marines). That is one difference. She also carries a lot of civilian department heads, has a huge fighter wing unlike the other ships (at least over 120 pilots right there, without support crews) etc. She also serves as headquarters for a whole battlegroup, which usually means a lot of aides, intelligence sections etc.

[Ahriman238]

Where do you get the 4 light seconds = real trouble from?

In-episode dialogue about the Balance not being good at close ranges, the description of it's design and limitations from the wiki, the vast disparity between it's energy weapon armament and Andromeda's, and the way it was destroyed.

Where do you get a "dozen" number from? And the DSA I/II are very impressive on their own.

Episode dialogue from 'D minus Zero' where a similar weapon system is used, also from the show's wiki, here:

A Multiple Independent Kill Vehicle, also known as "MIKVs," is a special missile delivery system that contains as many as a dozen independently targeting warheads. They are used mainly for the element of surprise, as the smaller kill vehicles contained inside the launched vehicle are usually used to try and overwhelm a target, because single missile would appear on an enemies scanners and then, when within a preset range, split into dozens of smaller independant warheads. Usually anti-missile systems like Point Defense Lasers are overwhelmed by this kind of barrage. MIKVs are also extremely effective and efficient for large scale bombardment of a given region, as they can be used in a manner similar to clusterbombs. Usually only Commonwealth vessels use them, but galactic powers like the Than-Thre-Kull, and the Nietzscheans have been known to use them. During the long night they were used prolifically, although in the modern era they are mostly deployed in ship-to-ship combat.

The Andromeda Ascendant uses PM-6LII Strategic Star Arrow as the main payload in her MIKVs.

I don't know as much about the DSA-I the DSA-II was an extremely impressive ship. I would even call it untouchable, within it's specialized field of combat. And there's the rub, it's a fast, stealthy missile platform, a very good one. But it does not have the more generalized deisgn of Andromeda it does not carry troops, it could not evacuate a planetary population, and it cannot fight at point-blank range. Really, as long as it has a competant commander (or it's AI isn't fixated on ending Andromeda) or even a few support vessels it should be pretty close to unstoppable.

Is it wrong that I keep thinking that Andromeda vs Honor Harrington could actually be interesting? Andromeda has only half the max speed of Honorverse ships, but has magic accel/decel. Andromeda ships can belch as many missiles per second as a podnaught can per minute, but Honorverse ships have larger nukes and laser-payloads that only have to come within 8,000 miles of the target. Andromeda has much better FTL drive, but Honorverse as FTL comm (at least insystem.)

[Thanas]

The firepower thing is actually somewhat misleading. Yes, they can chuck around gigatons per second (I actually hear the AP cannons are more powerful) but it has to be balanced against the extreme manuverability/acceleration, lightspeed lag, and godawful huge ranges of Andromeda. Oh, and the point defense capability. It's basically Honor Harrington in principle with kinetic warheads and less age of sail. I multi megaton missile will actually wreck a GHC if it hits and the ship is totally undefended (no point defense, no battle blades, no AG fields) but it can survive several hits with defenses.

1 missile? Doubtful. The Balance of Judgement took several missile packs at close range and then was destroyed. I doubt a single missile can do that if a PSP cannot take out the ship with one hit.

It's also quite possible that they need those long ranges to help let the missiles accelerate up to full velocity - I dont remember if they actually shoot out of the launchers at near-c velocities or not and simply have missiel guidance or whatever. Given the mass lightening magitech it could go either way.

Good point, but I doubt they need that much acceleration time given that the speed on the tactical display does not change if a target is far away.

also I'm not sure the firepower is THAt lopsided compared to SW (there are lots more insane than SW) and SW doesnt always use "max firepower" against targets either. Range and acceleration might be nice touches, but that matches up against universes with greater FTL precision (SW being one, ST another, etc.) Imagine detecting the salvo, then FTLing behind it, up close to the enemy, and blasting them to pieces with a single salvo. Hell Trek could fight a GHC if they play their cards right (if they get hit by more than a few missiles, yes, they're fucked, but FTL gives them some significant advantages against Andromeda combat styles.)

Yeah, I agree. Andromeda warfare is heavily based on stealth - every instance in the show a ship got missile lock, the target was usually dust unless they managed massive point defence missile spam. From the way battles develop (going by season 1 here as I do not trust the later writers) it seems like a big "shoot, relocate, go stealth, try to get lock, shoot etc) while huge fleets just missile spam all around.

However, anybody who detects the salvo has to have excellent FTL sensors and a very quick reaction time. These missiles move ridiculously fast and at 95 PSL that only gives you a couple seconds, at best a few minutes to react. Given the fact that some ST ships take that much time just to go shields up....

Really, I do not think ST has that much of a chance. Have they ever developed torpedoes that can catch up to the Andromeda at long ranges and what is Impulse speed classified as? Because if an XMC continues moving around at .4 lightspeed and goest to slipstream at will (and in a defensive war slipstream is a ridiculous advantage with regards to tactical mobility, especially against trek which takes weeks to have even 70 ships. Meanwhile the HG can potentially mobilize tens of thousands of ships in that timeframe) - I doubt ST weaponry can actually catch up. Especially if the ST side has to defend stationary targets like Planes, which are sitting ducks and canno evade by FTL.

SW is another scenario and one we already discussed in the past. I think our consensus there was pretty much "SW has a ship-to-ship advantage, Andromeda has a WMD and range advantage and both sides would most likely not do battle due to this".

Hmmmm....makes me kinda wonder if a SW force with XMCs thrown in would do together.

Things get wonkier once you start throwing all the weird shit in like phasing, tesserecting and nova bombs, but I hate going too far into that because it usually ends up with yet more "comic book tactics" territory.

And PSP weaponry of course, but I would agree. My personal theory is that no universe would really try to fight the CW and vice versa, because the risk of just fighter/nova bomb spam is just that way larger.

[Thanas]

Where do you get the 4 light seconds = real trouble from?

In-episode dialogue about the Balance not being good at close ranges, the description of it's design and limitations from the wiki, the vast disparity between it's energy weapon armament and Andromeda's, and the way it was destroyed.

The way it was destroyed was that an insane AI blundered into what pretty much was a minefield. None of that is in my opinion a real indication of its capabilities. Also note that the Balance was especially designed to fight the Magog - who pretty much are the epitome of close-quarter fights.

The wiki is also not an authority, I would suggest really looking at the official material here. Which states:

Deep Stand-Off Attack Ship (DSA) II

Wrath of Achilles Class

Platform Overview:
Designed as a next generation successor to the versatile and venerable Righteous Fist of Heaven platform, the Wrath of Achilles is the newest and most advanced ship class in the High Guard fleet. Incorporating many hard-learned lessons from the recently concluded Magog hostilities and the latest in Commonwealth technology, the Wrath of Achilles is the most lethal starship-killer ever built. Designed to operate with a minimum of crew and without fleet support behind enemy lines for extended periods of time, the new DSA forgoes such standard shipboard features as small craft, a Lancer contingent, and research capabilities in favor of missiles, missiles, and more missiles. The Wrath of Achilles is the most heavily armed starship launched by the Commonwealth, and her arsenal includes the latest in extreme-range kill vehicles as well as the usual suite of offensive and defensive missiles, AP guns, and PDLs. Additionally, the new DSA's distinctive, knife-like profile gives her a tiny sensor cross-section, making her nearly impossible for foes to detect. And any enemy who does manage to engage her will find that reactive shielding and cold plasma armor make the Wrath of Achilles exceptionally resilient and damage-resistant, while her lack of entry points (access to the ship is through a single, heavily fortified airlock) leaves the ship nearly invulnerable to boarding raids.

Where do you get a "dozen" number from? And the DSA I/II are very impressive on their own.

Episode dialogue from 'D minus Zero' where a similar weapon system is used, also from the show's wiki, here:

No, I meant where do you get that there are only a dozen XMCs in existence.

I would even call it untouchable, within it's specialized field of combat.

I wouldn't. It is essentially a raider and may serve as a frontline ship within a battle group, as its predecessor already does.

And there's the rub, it's a fast, stealthy missile platform, a very good one. But it does not have the more generalized deisgn of Andromeda it does not carry troops, it could not evacuate a planetary population, and it cannot fight at point-blank range.

Agreed.

Really, as long as it has a competant commander (or it's AI isn't fixated on ending Andromeda) or even a few support vessels it should be pretty close to unstoppable.

I doubt that. Its capabilites are not that much overwhelming, especially considering that with all her firepower, she could not destroy an unarmed Andromeda immediately with missile spam. Though that may have been a bit more insane AI again....

Is it wrong that I keep thinking that Andromeda vs Honor Harrington could actually be interesting? Andromeda has only half the max speed of Honorverse ships, but has magic accel/decel. Andromeda ships can belch as many missiles per second as a podnaught can per minute, but Honorverse ships have larger nukes and laser-payloads that only have to come within 8,000 miles of the target. Andromeda has much better FTL drive, but Honorverse as FTL comm (at least insystem.)

8000 miles = effective strike? How? And I doubt any Honorverse missile travels at 90-95 PSL, which is what will be needed to evade defensive missiles. Especially with such a heavy firepower advantage I doubt the Podnought can hold up.

As for a war, it would be pretty much suicide for Manticore to try and fight the CW. The latter has the resources of three galaxies and about 150.000 combat ships. Manticore has pathetic numbers compared to that.

[Ahriman238]

The way it was destroyed was that an insane AI blundered into what pretty much was a minefield. None of that is in my opinion a real indication of its capabilities.

If that's how you how you see it. I recall the Balance letting a freighter get close enough to open it's doors and launch some of the world's slowest missiles, which the Balance does nothing to evade or destroy. That could be a sensor limitation, or another sign that the Balance wasn't the most stable and happy AI, but I doubt it would have happened if Balance had blasted them from a million kilometers out, something we know is within Andromeda's abilities. To me, that suggests the same thing that both the Andromeda wiki and the official link you provided say, that the class was highly specialized in favor of missile spam at extreme ranges, while Andromeda is deadly at any distance.

Also note that the Balance was especially designed to fight the Magog - who pretty much are the epitome of close-quarter fights.

It was indeed designed to fight them, by keeping them at arm's reach and blasting away with so many missiles even the vast Magog swarms would never live to reach it.

The wiki is also not an authority, I would suggest really looking at the official material here.

You're preaching to the choir there, which is why in this case I'm using it to confrim and support half-remembered snippets of dialogue from the show. Also, that's the first half of the wiki article verbatim. Which doesn't much suprise me since the official site is listed as the primary source. I'm a little confused how the passage you've included suggests that the DSX isn't in trouble once it hits energy range.

No, I meant where do you get that there are only a dozen XMCs in existence.

Ah, that's a problem. I can't recall or find the precise source, terribly embarrassing in an internet debate. I have an old psych textbook that calls it 'source amnesia.' I am reasonably confident in the number, since I remember thinking "Are they for real?" It'd almost have to be a first season episode, since none of the webpages I've visited tonight have it. I could probably find it again just by rewatching from the pilot, but I honestly don't care that much. Believe or disbelieve, Glorious Heiritage was one of the newest classes (I think Rommie was only built twenty years before the pilot battle) and there were twelve scattered across three galaxies. I think it was a throwaway line. I can't blame you for your disbelief, and I assume there was some other ship they were phasing out (like the DSA-II was suppossed to do for the DSA-I.)

I doubt that. Its capabilites are not that much overwhelming, especially considering that with all her firepower, she could not destroy an unarmed Andromeda immediately with missile spam. Though that may have been a bit more insane AI again....

It had 4.5 times Andromeda's missile capacity, plus substantially greater point defense, and at least marginally better armor. They were never going to win a missile duel.

Andromeda had the capacity for those multi-missiles as well. I doubt all or even most of a missile salvo would contain secondary missiles, but a few would, in the the interests of saturating point defense. And that will tend to raise the missiles-per-second count.

8000 miles = effective strike? How? And I doubt any Honorverse missile travels at 90-95 PSL, which is what will be needed to evade defensive missiles.

It doesn't, but laser weapons like the point-defense turrets can be used within their range to destroy small Niectzean and Restorian ships, and larger laser weapons were mounted on smaller ships like the GDFs, so laser warheads may be suprisingly competitive. And well the laser heads will detonate inside the range of point defense lasers, more of them will get through. Especially the first couple of times, while systems and operators alike are accustomed to missiles that have to strike the target.

Especially with such a heavy firepower advantage I doubt the Podnought can hold up.

Possibly, I hold out some hope for things like the Mule, tractored pods held flush against the hull till needed and Apollo to keep Honorverse in the game. Definitly an uphill struggle though.

As for a war, it would be pretty much suicide for Manticore to try and fight the CW. The latter has the resources of three galaxies and about 150.000 combat ships. Manticore has pathetic numbers compared to that.

Ah. Touche.

[Thanas]

If that's how you how you see it. I recall the Balance letting a freighter get close enough to open it's doors and launch some of the world's slowest missiles, which the Balance does nothing to evade or destroy. That could be a sensor limitation, or another sign that the Balance wasn't the most stable and happy AI, but I doubt it would have happened if Balance had blasted them from a million kilometers out, something we know is within Andromeda's abilities. To me, that suggests the same thing that both the Andromeda wiki and the official link you provided say, that the class was highly specialized in favor of missile spam at extreme ranges, while Andromeda is deadly at any distance.

Here is my reasoning:
The ship is a raider, which does not carry as much sensor drones and has much less zone coverage than a spaced out High Guard Battlegroup. Which means that it has a much higher chance of getting ambushed by forces that use small, hard to detect ships that pack a powerful range at close distances - meaning the Magog. You say that it was built to missile spam at long distances and it may be....but the Andromeda had a lot of trouble locking in on a single ship that was at the edge of sensor range in one episode. Are the sensors of the DSX that much better? If so, why should it be worse at shorter ranges than at longer ranges, especially given the limitation of no FTL travel?

Even moreso, increased armor and especially little access to the ship via boarding seems to suggest to me that short range defence was indeed a factor.

It was indeed designed to fight them, by keeping them at arm's reach and blasting away with so many missiles even the vast Magog swarms would never live to reach it.

See above.

No, I meant where do you get that there are only a dozen XMCs in existence.

Ah, that's a problem. I can't recall or find the precise source, terribly embarrassing in an internet debate. I have an old psych textbook that calls it 'source amnesia.' I am reasonably confident in the number, since I remember thinking "Are they for real?" It'd almost have to be a first season episode, since none of the webpages I've visited tonight have it. I could probably find it again just by rewatching from the pilot, but I honestly don't care that much. Believe or disbelieve, Glorious Heiritage was one of the newest classes (I think Rommie was only built twenty years before the pilot battle) and there were twelve scattered across three galaxies. I think it was a throwaway line. I can't blame you for your disbelief, and I assume there was some other ship they were phasing out (like the DSA-II was suppossed to do for the DSA-I.)

We see much more than a dozen ships already in the first two seasons. One scrapyard of ships in the second season shows at least four, plus whichhead shows several as well etc. The HG lists the XMC as the only heavy combatant of its size and as the center of a battlegroup. There being a dozen only would mean that there are only 12 battlegroups in a Navy that has 150.000 dedicated warships. Are you sure that a dozen XMCs does not refer to the number of named XMCs in the series?

Just for reference: Andromeda's keel was laid in 9768. She was finished by 9772. On a planet that was certainly not the most important one in the galaxy. Even if we assume that Earth was one of a dozen shipbuilding planets and had only one large shipyard - both ridiculous assumptions to make in a nation where a single member state can build a 30.000 strong Navy over a course of a few years in secret, with ships comparable in size to the Andromeda - that still leaves at least several dozen until the fall.

Quite frankly, IMO there are at least several thousand of those ships. Heck, even numbers in the low tens of thousands would be perfectly feasible in such a nation and given the high amount of shipbuilding facilities I fail to see how such a shipbuilding program could not be made in a few years, given the Nietzchean example.

It had 4.5 times Andromeda's missile capacity, plus substantially greater point defense, and at least marginally better armor. They were never going to win a missile duel.

Doubtful. Especially with a fully crewed XMC vs a fully crewed DSX....the immense fighter wing alone is great at point defence. Pure missile spam seems much less important than getting a sensor lock on ships.

Andromeda had the capacity for those multi-missiles as well. I doubt all or even most of a missile salvo would contain secondary missiles, but a few would, in the the interests of saturating point defense. And that will tend to raise the missiles-per-second count.

Yes, I know.

It doesn't, but laser weapons like the point-defense turrets can be used within their range to destroy small Niectzean and Restorian ships,

Fighters and ships with little armor, you mean.

and larger laser weapons were mounted on smaller ships like the GDFs, so laser warheads may be suprisingly competitive. And well the laser heads will detonate inside the range of point defense lasers, more of them will get through. Especially the first couple of times, while systems and operators alike are accustomed to missiles that have to strike the target.

I am not so sure about that. I for one doubt the XMC is just going to sit there and let those very slow missiles catch them. Heck, they can just fire several salvos of defensive missiles and still have an overwhelming fire advantage. This is like a guy with a rifle firing against a machine gun, with bullets being able to intercept each other.

Or Andromeda may just evade. Are the missiles fast enough to catch up to a target of that size constantly evading with that acceleration/deceleration?

Possibly, I hold out some hope for things like the Mule, tractored pods held flush against the hull till needed and Apollo to keep Honorverse in the game. Definitly an uphill struggle though.

[/quote][/quote]

Are these able to increase the firepower/rate of fire to 60x the usual numbers? If not, what will prevent the XMC from just launching 10 (instead of 3) out of sixty salvos as defensive missiles, or having the fighter wing intercept?

[someone_else]

I'm not saying it should be more like SW or ST, it just seems unbalanced. Out of scale if you like. On one hand, having fairly low-yield weapons and a lack of non-courier FTL comms, and on the other being able to traverse three galaxies in a matter of days or weeks. It just strikes me as being waaaaay too fast.

Unbalanced or out of scale compared to what? What settings are "balanced" for you?

To me, seems that somewhere into your mind lies an assumption that SW/ST and similar are "the right SF". It's like assuming that "fantasy" is only a tolkien-ripoff setting with tolkien-elves, tolkien-dwarves, and so on (the D&D setting is a major example of such ripoff).

It's an effect of having read so many stories (and seen movies) with more or less the same general setting, it's somewhat natural. When you read something different, all your alarms start ringing. But it's just a trick of the mind.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'm not saying it should be more like SW or ST, it just seems unbalanced. Out of scale if you like. On one hand, having fairly low-yield weapons and a lack of non-courier FTL comms, and on the other being able to traverse three galaxies in a matter of days or weeks. It just strikes me as being waaaaay too fast.

Unbalanced or out of scale compared to what? What settings are "balanced" for you?

To me, seems that somewhere into your mind lies an assumption that SW/ST and similar are "the right SF". It's like assuming that "fantasy" is only a tolkien-ripoff setting with tolkien-elves, tolkien-dwarves, and so on (the D&D setting is a major example of such ripoff).

It's an effect of having read so many stories (and seen movies) with more or less the same general setting, it's somewhat natural. When you read something different, all your alarms start ringing. But it's just a trick of the mind.

I think you're right there. Most of my sci-fi is limited to SW/ST/40K/Halo universes, with a smattering of the classics like HG Wells. Andromeda definitely set of bells saying "whoah, slow down." Then again, having read the posts in the thread from Thanas and others, Andromeda's combat capabilities are a lot higher than I gave it credit for, and it's a different style of combat.

An XMC would be squashed like a bug in say the Battle of Endor, but it's built to fight a different universe.

I concede that the tech is not unbalanced, just very different to what I am used to.

[Ahriman238]

We see much more than a dozen ships already in the first two seasons. One scrapyard of ships in the second season shows at least four, plus whichhead shows several as well etc. The HG lists the XMC as the only heavy combatant of its size and as the center of a battlegroup. There being a dozen only would mean that there are only 12 battlegroups in a Navy that has 150.000 dedicated warships. Are you sure that a dozen XMCs does not refer to the number of named XMCs in the series?

Just for reference: Andromeda's keel was laid in 9768. She was finished by 9772. On a planet that was certainly not the most important one in the galaxy. Even if we assume that Earth was one of a dozen shipbuilding planets and had only one large shipyard - both ridiculous assumptions to make in a nation where a single member state can build a 30.000 strong Navy over a course of a few years in secret, with ships comparable in size to the Andromeda - that still leaves at least several dozen until the fall.

Quite frankly, IMO there are at least several thousand of those ships. Heck, even numbers in the low tens of thousands would be perfectly feasible in such a nation and given the high amount of shipbuilding facilities I fail to see how such a shipbuilding program could not be made in a few years, given the Nietzchean example.

In the abscence of a source, I'll defer to the opinon of the man who's clearly watched more of the show than I.

Are these able to increase the firepower/rate of fire to 60x the usual numbers? If not, what will prevent the XMC from just launching 10 (instead of 3) out of sixty salvos as defensive missiles, or having the fighter wing intercept?

Sort of. But it will only work for a single salvo and seriously hamper their own accel/decel. The Apollo system will let them relay commands to their missiles at vast ranges, rather than rely on onboard homing systems, and combined with the MDMs might let them seriously outrange Commonwealth ships. Unfortunatly, I just realized this is a moot point, since the only long-range sensors available in Honorverse are gravity sensors that detect a ship's impeller wedge. After that, they have rader and lidar, both of which work at ranges of less than a light-second.

Okay, stupid idea. And a curbstomp in favor of Andromeda.

[Thanas]

In the abscence of a source, I'll defer to the opinon of the man who's clearly watched more of the show than I.

That's nice of you, and I'll give you my sources as well:

- The fleet at whichhead is described in Angel Dark, Demon Bright. It is telling that an XMC is the scouting vessel for the rest of the fleet (episode 1x08)
- The "scrapyard" (more of a ship prison) is shown in The Knight, Death, and the Devil (episode 2x18)
- we also have the Pax Magellanic, another XMC, being dispatched on what looks like a routine mission in The Mathematics of Tears (episode 1x12)
- finally, another huge blow against low numbers comes from the season 1 finale. We have the Andromeda sent off on what is pretty much a suicide covert ops mission. If she was only one of a dozen and that much of a valuable ship, this would be akin to the USA sending USS Iowa to Japan in 1940 to assassinate the Emperor.

Unfortunatly, I just realized this is a moot point, since the only long-range sensors available in Honorverse are gravity sensors that detect a ship's impeller wedge. After that, they have rader and lidar, both of which work at ranges of less than a light-second.

That means the Honorverse might not even be able to get a sensor lock (could somebody more knowledgeable on the Honorverse comment on this?). Because the Andromeda is essentially manipulating its own gravity constantly (theory is that is how they achieve that magic accel/deccel speed). Would Honorverse gravity sensors even be able to lock on to such a target? Because if they are not and the Honorverse has otherwise ranges of less than a light-second, then that would leave them blind and reaction time of about 1.2 seconds before a missile salvo hits.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The fleet at whichhead is described in Angel Dark, Demon Bright. It is telling that an XMC is the scouting vessel for the rest of the fleet (episode 1x08)

If you are referring to the Renewed Valour, she was most definitely NOT an XMC. The All Systems University website you sent me a link to lists her as an Eternal Vigilence class recon ship, which makes more sense as an advance scout than an XMC anyway.

In all fairness though, we know that there were at least three named XMC's at Whitchhead, namely:

Continuation of Politics
Salient Debate
Fires of Orion

And most likely the HG Flagship Thermopylae was an XMC or a larger vessel.

[Thanas]

Upon looking, yeah you are right. The similarities in design made me make that mistake.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I made that mistake the first time I saw it as well. Easy enough.

[Ahriman238]

That means the Honorverse might not even be able to get a sensor lock (could somebody more knowledgeable on the Honorverse comment on this?). Because the Andromeda is essentially manipulating its own gravity constantly (theory is that is how they achieve that magic accel/deccel speed). Would Honorverse gravity sensors even be able to lock on to such a target? Because if they are not and the Honorverse has otherwise ranges of less than a light-second, then that would leave them blind and reaction time of about 1.2 seconds before a missile salvo hits.

No, it's worse than that. In one of the short stories (A Ship Named Francis) a starship with an incompetent navigator narrowly avoids collision with a moon. They only detected the moon at 63,000 kilometers.

Granted, the Francis Mueller is a ship some twenty or thirty years out of date and crewed by every incompetent that the Service wanted to stick someplace where they couldn't cause trouble. But still, compared to Andromeda they are blind.

And no, they won't detect a ship without a wedge. Honorverse ships regularly shut down their wedges when they want to be stealthy (an importan plot point in Basilisk Station and Echoes of Honor) and when the Mesans invent a ship drive that doesn't rely on impeller tech, they become effectively invisible.

[Connor MacLeod]

1 missile? Doubtful. The Balance of Judgement took several missile packs at close range and then was destroyed. I doubt a single missile can do that if a PSP cannot take out the ship with one hit.

It depends entirely where the missile hits. Strike the AP tanks, and given that any missile strike converts warhead and hull to a plasma blowtorch... the results would potentially be quite devastating. That's basically the point, and partly why they have that fragile looking, spread-out appearance. Andromeda ship hulls aren't MEANT to resist weapons hits in the way other universes (like SW or 40K) are.. they're meant to.. they try to minimize and genreally redirect (or let overpenetrate) and rely on self repair, decentralization, and redundancy to keep them combat-capable. Oh and point defense and AG fields and mobility and EW.

As far as PSPs go.. PSPs are magic gravity weapons that have more in common with phasers and Zat guns than a physical projectile. Nevermind that they ALSO hideously overpenetrate as well. You can use PSPs to justify the AA taking "planet destroying" weapons hits for crying out loud.

I could also point out examples of Mw and GW weapons purportedly being a threat to AA ships (like the PDLs)

Good point, but I doubt they need that much acceleration time given that the speed on the tactical display does not change if a target is far away.

They have an acceleration something on the order of 4000 kilo gees or something like that and a usual velocity aorund 90 psl (for at least a 20 MT impact). That's ~7 seconds worth of acceleration, which would require a run of of around a couple light seconds to pull off at least, and that's largely ideal circumstances (no manuvering for one thing)

Most universes tend to fight at around a light second or less tops, which means that AA is at an disadvantage at closer ranges.

Yeah, I agree. Andromeda warfare is heavily based on stealth - every instance in the show a ship got missile lock, the target was usually dust unless they managed massive point defence missile spam. From the way battles develop (going by season 1 here as I do not trust the later writers) it seems like a big "shoot, relocate, go stealth, try to get lock, shoot etc) while huge fleets just missile spam all around.

It's heavily based on not getting hit, period. the ludicrous ranges, mobility, rates of fire.. they're all designed around that idea of simply avoiding getting hit. (To be honest, I'm not sure how magical mass lightening tech is any more plausible than unobtanium hulls, but eh.)

However, anybody who detects the salvo has to have excellent FTL sensors and a very quick reaction time. These missiles move ridiculously fast and at 95 PSL that only gives you a couple seconds, at best a few minutes to react. Given the fact that some ST ships take that much time just to go shields up....

That depends entirely on the range you engage at. As I pointed out, the missiles don't START out at 90-95 PSL and manuvering only makes that worse. Also the range issue is a double edged sword. shorter ranges offer less reaction time, but they also put the AA at threat of being damaged (which as I pointed out, is not difficult to do if you can hit it.) At longer ranges (especially the light minutes) missiles become ludicrously easy to dodge as long as you detect them (of course you could just ASSUME they shot at you then FTL away to some other locale. Lacking FTL sensors of its own, its quite easy to play your own cat and mouse game with High Guard ships, since they won't be able ot detect you right away. Picard Manuever anyone?)

Really, I do not think ST has that much of a chance. Have they ever developed torpedoes that can catch up to the Andromeda at long ranges and what is Impulse speed classified as? Because if an XMC continues moving around at .4 lightspeed and goest to slipstream at will (and in a defensive war slipstream is a ridiculous advantage with regards to tactical mobility, especially against trek which takes weeks to have even 70 ships. Meanwhile the HG can potentially mobilize tens of thousands of ships in that timeframe) - I doubt ST weaponry can actually catch up. Especially if the ST side has to defend stationary targets like Planes, which are sitting ducks and canno evade by FTL.

Depends entirely on how they fight. IF they use Warp drive or impulse (with mass lightening) to pull high accels or sublight speeds, they could quite possibly keep up, even with torpedoes. And even if they can't... who says they have to CHASE. They can still FTL off light minutes or hours away, and then pick and choose where to appear, or how to attack.

And failing that there are always transporters. AG fields and EW will make it hard to land accurate hits, but I'm not sure they need pinpoint accuracy either (beaming warheads or pods of antimatter into the path of the ship, for example.)

SW is another scenario and one we already discussed in the past. I think our consensus there was pretty much "SW has a ship-to-ship advantage, Andromeda has a WMD and range advantage and both sides would most likely not do battle due to this".

It literally depends on how escalation goes. It could go anywhere from (they nuke each other to death) to (impregnable fortresses due to Planetary shields/tesserecting/underground worlds.) whatever. Drifting into comic book territory is almost unavoidable with Andromeda vs GE, because the high end insanity like WMDs are about the only way they CAN win (although at best, it would be MAD unless they managed to gain an unbeatable surprise attack advantage and near perfect kill rate.)

And PSP weaponry of course, but I would agree. My personal theory is that no universe would really try to fight the CW and vice versa, because the risk of just fighter/nova bomb spam is just that way larger.

Except that as I poointed out, the wonkier tech is basically the only reaal edge Andromeda has to beat most "comparable" universes. And that lasts only so long as the Empire isn't willing to play attritional warfare or go really comic book (like with their automated/droid technology, in terms of military and industrial power.)

[Connor MacLeod]

8000 miles = effective strike? How? And I doubt any Honorverse missile travels at 90-95 PSL, which is what will be needed to evade defensive missiles. Especially with such a heavy firepower advantage I doubt the Podnought can hold up.

As for a war, it would be pretty much suicide for Manticore to try and fight the CW. The latter has the resources of three galaxies and about 150.000 combat ships. Manticore has pathetic numbers compared to that.

The latest generation of missiles as of the podnoughts was closing on near-c (which was from .25-.3c at the start of the series) due to increases in acceleration and multi-drive engines exteding operational endurance (although you needed reduced aceleration settings to extend the drive endurance long enought od ot hat.. you need ludicrously longer ranges than OMs need to pull off near-c with a MDM missile.)

The real advantage is that honorverse acceleration and agility is total SHIT compared to Andromeda. AA can make a 180 in a matter of seconds. It would take minutes (possibly close to an hour) for a large Dreadnought to do that (barring some extreme luck or wanky new-generation technology, and even then it would be closer to a minute before they can do that.) And they have a fairly precise FTL drive, but it can't be used too deeply inside a system (meaning if the AA gets around close to a star or an inhabitabed planet, it can tell the HV ship to fuck off in missile engagements.)

The only disadvantage to the insane accelerations is that they might actually make High Guard ships somewhat detectable to gravitics, at least when the AG is in use (we're talking what, tens or hundreds of thousands of gees.. that's close at least in strength to a wedge, but of course they're nowhere near as large or enduring, so they still have that asset.) for whatever it's worth.

On the other hand, AP cannons and OM will do fuck-all against a HV ship unless they can get up the kilt or down the throat shots (read, lucky) or they get close enough to use lasers (which means they're screwed if they do.)

Basically the Andromeda ships have the legs to keep away from HV ships, but the HV ships have the protection to withstand virtually anything (Barring technobabble or nova bombs) that the Andromeda ship can throw at it.

[Thanas]

Basically the Andromeda ships have the legs to keep away from HV ships, but the HV ships have the protection to withstand virtually anything (Barring technobabble or nova bombs) that the Andromeda ship can throw at it.

Really? The Wedge is that powerful that it can withstand several gigatons of simultaneous kinetic impacts? I mean, a single offensive drone can generate close to a gigaton of energy on impact and Andromeda can put out ridiculous amounts of firepower with that.

I admit I only read the first books of the Honorverse before the Mary-sueing got to me, but that sounds a bit too much IMO.

Especially as the Andromeda missiles can be easily programmed to strike from multiple angles - and the wedge does not cover all of the ship.

[Connor MacLeod]

Basically the Andromeda ships have the legs to keep away from HV ships, but the HV ships have the protection to withstand virtually anything (Barring technobabble or nova bombs) that the Andromeda ship can throw at it.

Really? The Wedge is that powerful that it can withstand several gigatons of simultaneous kinetic impacts? I mean, a single offensive drone can generate close to a gigaton of energy on impact and Andromeda can put out ridiculous amounts of firepower with that.

I admit I only read the first books of the Honorverse before the Mary-sueing got to me, but that sounds a bit too much IMO.

Especially as the Andromeda missiles can be easily programmed to strike from multiple angles - and the wedge does not cover all of the ship.

In the second novel a Havenite ship on loan to some religious fanatics from a low tech universe had a sidewall that endured two consecutive missile impacts at .25c I think they were 70 ton missiles. Hell, weber himself said (I believe) that the Particle shields (Secondary defneses) could take a 2 ton impact at .6c without failing (or something to that effect) so they're pretty damn durable form the kinetic POV.

It may not be "invulnerable" per se, CoM still applies and you can use that in a number of ways to "kill" the ship (kill the crew with lethal accelerations, overcome structural limits on the sidewall generators and buckle them, simply wear them down with attrition, etc.) I suspect that its unlikely that a GHC could fire off enough missiles in one sitting to actually do that (each missile is going to have maybe 2-3e8 kg*m/s worth of momentum, so even if we assume those two impacts nearly wiped out the sidewalls, it would take several minutes of continuous fire AT BEST, to knock down the sidewalls. Nevermind the Particle shields.) And that isn't factoring in EW, point defense, counter missiles, etc.

Edit: on second thought its possible that, if they are moving faster than .8c, which they can, OM's might overwhelm the particle shields at least pretty easily. IIRC .8c was the velocity limit on particle shields, and I dont know if they imporved that any recently.)

[Thanas]

In the second novel a Havenite ship on loan to some religious fanatics from a low tech universe had a sidewall that endured two consecutive missile impacts at .25c I think they were 70 ton missiles. Hell, weber himself said (I believe) that the Particle shields (Secondary defneses) could take a 2 ton impact at .6c without failing (or something to that effect) so they're pretty damn durable form the kinetic POV.

A 2 ton impact at .6c is pretty much on the scale of one drone being used. Can they take multiple impacts happening simultaneously?

It may not be "invulnerable" per se, CoM still applies and you can use that in a number of ways to "kill" the ship (kill the crew with lethal accelerations, overcome structural limits on the sidewall generators and buckle them, simply wear them down with attrition, etc.) I suspect that its unlikely that a GHC could fire off enough missiles in one sitting to actually do that (each missile is going to have maybe 2-3e8 kg*m/s worth of momentum, so even if we assume those two impacts nearly wiped out the sidewalls, it would take several minutes of continuous fire AT BEST, to knock down the sidewalls. Nevermind the Particle shields.) And that isn't factoring in EW, point defense, counter missiles, etc.

I find it really hard to believe that Honorverse can shrug of that many missiles, resulting in that much firepower. Heck, in one episode Andromeda fired over 20 GT worth of missiles at one target.

And what really screws the Honorverse here is that they essentially are blind here and have to react within seconds. AFAIK a wedge only protects one side of the ship. What with multiple salvos striking all sides of the ships?

It depends entirely where the missile hits. Strike the AP tanks, and given that any missile strike converts warhead and hull to a plasma blowtorch... the results would potentially be quite devastating.

In all the battles, no AP tank has ever been penetrated. I think that says something about their durability.

That's basically the point, and partly why they have that fragile looking, spread-out appearance. Andromeda ship hulls aren't MEANT to resist weapons hits in the way other universes (like SW or 40K) are.. they're meant to.. they try to minimize and genreally redirect (or let overpenetrate) and rely on self repair, decentralization, and redundancy to keep them combat-capable. Oh and point defense and AG fields and mobility and EW.

I reject that interpretation of the profile. The official word is that the shape makes it harder to get a lock on the ship and I see no reason to doubt the official, canon word of the writers.

As far as PSPs go.. PSPs are magic gravity weapons that have more in common with phasers and Zat guns than a physical projectile. Nevermind that they ALSO hideously overpenetrate as well. You can use PSPs to justify the AA taking "planet destroying" weapons hits for crying out loud.

Yeah, which is why nobody uses PSPs to calculate damage resistance. Nevertheless, the fact that they exist and there are several powers in the Andromedaverse which use them means that they are a weapon.

I could also point out examples of Mw and GW weapons purportedly being a threat to AA ships (like the PDLs)

The PDLs are only ever seen to damage fighters and missiles. There is no ship ever being destroyed by PDLs.

They have an acceleration something on the order of 4000 kilo gees or something like that and a usual velocity aorund 90 psl (for at least a 20 MT impact). That's ~7 seconds worth of acceleration, which would require a run of of around a couple light seconds to pull off at least, and that's largely ideal circumstances (no manuvering for one thing)

Where do you get the acceleration figure from? (I vaguely remember us disccussing it, but I do not know where it was...)

Most universes tend to fight at around a light second or less tops, which means that AA is at an disadvantage at closer ranges.

Yeah, nobody denying that the AA is disadvantaged at closer ranges. They still got the AP guns, however, though these are of course not SW level firepower.

It's heavily based on not getting hit, period. the ludicrous ranges, mobility, rates of fire.. they're all designed around that idea of simply avoiding getting hit. (To be honest, I'm not sure how magical mass lightening tech is any more plausible than unobtanium hulls, but eh.)

Nevertheless, we see that the AA can take several missile hits if necessary. Even over 24 simultaneous hits in that episode.

That depends entirely on the range you engage at. As I pointed out, the missiles don't START out at 90-95 PSL and manuvering only makes that worse. Also the range issue is a double edged sword. shorter ranges offer less reaction time, but they also put the AA at threat of being damaged (which as I pointed out, is not difficult to do if you can hit it.)

Which is a pretty big if though.

At longer ranges (especially the light minutes) missiles become ludicrously easy to dodge as long as you detect them (of course you could just ASSUME they shot at you then FTL away to some other locale. Lacking FTL sensors of its own, its quite easy to play your own cat and mouse game with High Guard ships, since they won't be able ot detect you right away. Picard Manuever anyone?)

Honorverse does not have FTL sensors. If you are assuming this is against Trek, we never see ST ships constantly maneuvering on guard duty etc either. Especially the Dominion war would argue otherwise, most is a slugfest at small ranges.

Depends entirely on how they fight. IF they use Warp drive or impulse (with mass lightening) to pull high accels or sublight speeds, they could quite possibly keep up, even with torpedoes. And even if they can't... who says they have to CHASE. They can still FTL off light minutes or hours away, and then pick and choose where to appear, or how to attack.

With what? You are assuming ST can concentrate enough forces to take on a defense - and if they engage at close range, then that negates the FTL sensor advantage as well as put them into the range of AP guns, which move at .99 c.

And failing that there are always transporters. AG fields and EW will make it hard to land accurate hits, but I'm not sure they need pinpoint accuracy either (beaming warheads or pods of antimatter into the path of the ship, for example.)

That sounds suspiciously like one of the tactics the trekkies tried back in the days. We never see transporters being used in that manner and considering that nearly everything screws with transporters anyway.....

It literally depends on how escalation goes. It could go anywhere from (they nuke each other to death) to (impregnable fortresses due to Planetary shields/tesserecting/underground worlds.) whatever. Drifting into comic book territory is almost unavoidable with Andromeda vs GE, because the high end insanity like WMDs are about the only way they CAN win (although at best, it would be MAD unless they managed to gain an unbeatable surprise attack advantage and near perfect kill rate.)

Yeah....though the Empire might run faster out of worlds than the CW will run out of. Especially given the empire has to reach across several galaxies, which the Imperial ships are just not able to do or built for.

Except that as I poointed out, the wonkier tech is basically the only reaal edge Andromeda has to beat most "comparable" universes. And that lasts only so long as the Empire isn't willing to play attritional warfare or go really comic book (like with their automated/droid technology, in terms of military and industrial power.)

The latter they have never done (as you yourself argued not long ago). Really, the PSPs and Nova bombs alone potentially give the CW the capability to escalate to a ridiculous level all around, and Nova bombs are used regularly anyway.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Nova bombs are carried regularly By High Guard ships. According to the All Systems university site the first time they were used outside of weapons tests was when the AA used them on the Hephastis black hole, 300 years after the fall of the Commonwealth.

[Thanas]

Nova bombs are carried regularly By High Guard ships. According to the All Systems university site the first time they were used outside of weapons tests was when the AA used them on the Hephastis black hole, 300 years after the fall of the Commonwealth.

And they are also used regularly when faced with insurmountable odds. See Dylan vs worldship or when he blew up a whole planet to deny it to the enemy.