StarDestroyer.Net BBS

That list very richly deserves it own thread, with explanations and dissections of each mishap. Interesting to note that the holodeck seems to have a worse record than the transporters, which are usually the first thing people complain about the safety of...

Destructionator XIII wrote:

sc_owl wrote:Children on the Enterprise: Never got my head around this to be honest. Seems a stupid idea whichever way you look at it.

If you think of the ship as a city in space, it's a lot easier to understand.

But the ship is not a city in space. The closest thing to a city in space would have been a starbase. I wouldn't have minded having children, or civilians, on board if the writers actually used them rather than just making a point that they were there.

Darth Tedious wrote:

sc_owl wrote:Worf: Never really had too much of a problem with his character, although I didn't like the angle with him and his son. I think it would have played out much better had his son been older and already serving in the Klingon Defence Forces. There was an episode where a Klingon officer is posted on the Enterprise, and I think it turns out to be Kurn. Could have been an interesting multi-episode arc had the officer been Worf's son.

Worf was about 24 years old at the time of the Farpoint mission. He couldn't have a son that old.

Make Worf older then.

Destructionator XIII wrote:

sc_owl wrote:But the ship is not a city in space.

It sort of is. The writers didn't really follow through with it, but we see some elements - there's a variety of people and services aboard, and it is meant for an ongoing mission out there. The crew live in pretty regular homes and go to fairly regular jobs each day. It seems like some people live there just because they want to, like Guinan and Mott the barber.

While real life ships have a service sector too, a barber on a navy ship is probably a navy sailor who was ordered to the ship. Guinan is a civilian who seems to have set up shop because it suits her.

I thought Guinan was on board at the request of Picard?

If they wanted to make the ship "a city in space" they should have gone the whole way. But the mission of the Enterprise, what we see on screen about the make up of the crew and passangers, and this concept of a "city in space"... to me, it just doesn't all add up very well.

sc_owl wrote:Make Worf older, then.

Yeah, that would work. To maintain his character would require the Khittomer massacre to have happened earlier, but that wouldn't change terribly much (possibly Yar's daughter? I can't remember if the E-C was at Khittomer...).

Darth Tedious wrote:

sc_owl wrote:Make Worf older, then.

Yeah, that would work. To maintain his character would require the Khittomer massacre to have happened earlier, but that wouldn't change terribly much (possibly Yar's daughter? I can't remember if the E-C was at Khittomer...).

I think Yar, and the E-C, were at Narendra (sp) III...?

Destructionator XIII wrote:

sc_owl wrote:I thought Guinan was on board at the request of Picard?

Maybe, I don't think so though.

Regardless, there's still other people: Mott and Keiko come to mind as civilian workers on the ship without Starfleet families.

If they wanted to make the ship "a city in space" they should have gone the whole way.

Yeah, that would have been cool.

The E-D could have almost been a colony ship, much larger with a lot more people on board. Could have made for some interesting stories and better character development.

sc_owl wrote:

Darth Tedious wrote:

sc_owl wrote:Make Worf older, then.

Yeah, that would work. To maintain his character would require the Khittomer massacre to have happened earlier, but that wouldn't change terribly much (possibly Yar's daughter? I can't remember if the E-C was at Khittomer...).

I think Yar, and the E-C, were at Narendra (sp) III...?

Correct, but Yar was from the future. Specifically she was from the future Enterprise-D that was engaged in a cataclysmic war with the Klingons as a result of the Enterprise-C's disappearance over Narendra III.

Honestly though I don't like the idea of making Worf older.

Stofsk wrote:
Honestly though I don't like the idea of making Worf older.

Agreed. Worf's hotheaded "shoot first, ask questions later" attitude and occasional disobedience of Picard works better for a younger character.

Also, the Alexander angle wasn't thought up until three years into the series.

Four years - 'Reunion' was a 4th season episode. Although Worf and K'hleyer or however you spell her name hooked up in a season two episode.

In a meeting room far far away...

Writer 1: Hey, remember Denise Crosby? Played security chief in season 1?
Writer 2: Yeah?
Writer 1: She wouldn't mind making a cameo somewhere.
Writer 2: I thought we killed her off.
Writer 1: We did, but I have an idea. Let's send her back in time through a parallel universe and then kill her off again. Only this time, we'll include Romulans.
Writer 2: Awesome! But then we'd have to pick on Dorn because we'll make it Klingons vs. Federation.
Writer 1: Then let's make it as embarrising as possible. We'll include...
Writer 2: A son! Yeah! He got biblical with Suzie Plakton back in Season 2.
Writer 1: Hot damn!

Professor Moriarty getting big ideas of his own and subverting the ship's systems is the holodeck not breaking down in a conventional sense, but actually working too well...

And the rest of the time the holodeck not functioning properly is usually down to some alien third party subverting it rather the holodeck in of itself being the problem (ie [iTNG "Emergence" and VOY's "Heroes and Demons").

The problem with the Moriarty episodes is how the hell can you simply tell a computer to give a program consciousness then not figure out how/why it happened. On the other hand, those episodes were campy fun so I don't really care. Calling them a holodeck malfunction is a bit rich though.

If I were to do a revised version of The Next Generation I would make the following general changes:

1. I would establish that each planet has its own military. For example, the Andorian Guard or something similar could use their own ships and troops to protect Andoria.
2. I would have the Enterprise be based out of a starbase with the crew's families living on the starbase.
3. I would establish that all of the senior officers are fully capable of commanding the vessel if needed.
4. The Prime Directive would not prevent the captain from deciding to help a society if he was asked to do so or if there were some compelling reason to do so like impending genocide.
5. The safeties on ship systems would not fail just for the sake of drama.
6. Drama will not be used as an excuse to over emphasize how exotic an alien culture is.
7. No species would make up more than 15% of the crew.
8. The ship would have approximately equal numbers of male and female crew.
9. Creating interspecies children would be allowed but would require genetic engineering.
10. Starfleet Uniforms would be closer to TNG versions of the Mirror, Mirror uniforms.

Regarding civilians, in DS9, can anyone recall if the Odyssey mentioned civilians when they docked at DS9 before going on their recon mission to find the Siskos?

Multiverse wrote: 1. I would establish that each planet has its own military. For example, the Andorian Guard or something similar could use their own ships and troops to protect Andoria.

Why? Beyond being a bit of random background trivia, how would this affect the show at all?

2. I would have the Enterprise be based out of a starbase with the crew's families living on the starbase.

Again, pointless. How does this improve the show?

3. I would establish that all of the senior officers are fully capable of commanding the vessel if needed.

Other than possibly Troi, which senior officer failled at this? The only thing that needed to be changed is Troi and Crusher not being in the chain of command at all as the medical staff and not line officers.

4. The Prime Directive would not prevent the captain from deciding to help a society if he was asked to do so or if there were some compelling reason to do so like impending genocide.

You mean like actually ended up happening in Pen Pals and Homeward?

7. No species would make up more than 15% of the crew.

Hooray for soaring make-up costs for extras. Completely pointless and has no impact on the show.

9. Creating interspecies children would be allowed but would require genetic engineering.

Again, other than be slightly more realistic what impact does this have on the show at all? Do you hate the Worf/Alexander plot or something?

10. Starfleet Uniforms would be closer to TNG versions of the Mirror, Mirror uniforms.

What does this mean? You want knives, gold sashes and bared midriffs on the women?

Baffalo wrote:An example would be Counselor Troi. I don't mind the concept of counsel for Captain Picard, either in the form of sage wisdom or emotional support, but in the beginning we had two characters who accomplished the same role, and not at all equally. One was Guinan, the other Troi.

Yeah, but Troi was there from episode 1, Guinan didn't show up until Season 3 ...

Destructionator XIII wrote:If you think of the ship as a city in space, it's a lot easier to understand.

I seem to remember reading/hearing that the general gist of the show originally was to be based on the premise that the Enterprise D was a city that just happened to be a space ship, so there were families living in the saucer section, along with all the facilities, and the military branch of things was in the rear section of the ship.

sc_owl wrote:Troi: Would have been better if they had made her part of the medical set up, instead of giving her a seat on the bridge.

Agreed.

7. No species would make up more than 15% of the crew.

Hooray for soaring make-up costs for extras. Completely pointless and has no impact on the show.

9. Creating interspecies children would be allowed but would require genetic engineering.

Again, other than be slightly more realistic what impact does this have on the show at all? Do you hate the Worf/Alexander plot or something?

10. Starfleet Uniforms would be closer to TNG versions of the Mirror, Mirror uniforms.

What does this mean? You want knives, gold sashes and bared midriffs on the women?[/quote]

7. My basic point is that there should be more alien recurring, minor, and background characters than there were. The exact percentage is not especially important as such.

9. I don't have any particular problem with the Worf/Alexander plot. Requiring genetic engineering to create Alexander would mean his birth would be more intentional than accidental. I could see this opening up some interesting plot possibilities.

10. Mostly I think the Mirror Universe uniforms are sexier than the regular universe uniforms. It has never made sense to me that the people in the Mirror Universe seem to experience more sexual pleasure than folks in the regular universe. Beyond that, I see the mirror universe uniforms as a basis around which to create opportunity for individual expression with one's uniform.

Multiverse wrote:10. Mostly I think the Mirror Universe uniforms are sexier than the regular universe uniforms. It has never made sense to me that the people in the Mirror Universe seem to experience more sexual pleasure than folks in the regular universe. Beyond that, I see the mirror universe uniforms as a basis around which to create opportunity for individual expression with one's uniform.

And why is individual expression and sexiness in uniforms in a military organization a good thing? Jellico had the right idea making Troi lose the dresses and put on a uniform.

If Starfleet pajamas offer poor protection in combat situations and such, how much protection do you think midriff-baring uniforms offer? (One World of Warcraft fan comic pokes fun at this type of thing.) For all their faults, at least the Klingons wear armor. Hell, even SW fighter pilots wear flak jackets.

A better uniform for Starfleet would be one that offers some form of protection and utility and doesn't just look pretty. I don't give a rat's ass about it looking futuristic. In any realistic military organization, safety is important, not looks. On-duty Engineering and Science should wear coveralls (lots of pockets for tools and the like) and have haz-mat suits available (since warp coolant is super-toxic, just for starters). Security and away teams should wear armor (preferably made of packing crates ). When combat is likely, command crew should wear armor capable of pressure-sealing on demand, since a standard tactic in ST ship-to-ship combat is to target the bridge. They should also buckle into their seats so they don't get spaced in the event of an explosive decompression. The only places the pajamas make any sense whatsoever are off-duty and in Medical, and even Dr. Crusher wears a lab coat over hers.

Also, Trek writers should do actual research and listen to their tech advisers, so they don't make stupid mistakes. Data is supposed to be this super-advanced android, but he would've failed science at a modern high school because the guys writing his lines were idiots. Also, lose the technobabble: one of the reasons I like Lt. Paris is that he doesn't use it! Not having any particular interest in writing sci-fi is not an excuse for bad science, or for near-meaningless statements designed to take up screen time.

On the uniforms issue, I think this is one thing that ENT did better than the other series. At least there were pockets.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:On the uniforms issue, I think this is one thing that ENT did better than the other series. At least there were pockets.

Agreed, and I think they also had body armor on their away teams (ENT: "These Are The Voyages...").

The uniforms were about the only thing ENT did right, unfortunately.

As for the TNG PJs, I fail to see why their shipboard uniforms need to offer much in the way of protection. 99+% of modern day uniforms don't and for a very good reason: 99+% of the time they don't need to. Body armour, helmets etc are something you don when you seriously expect to be shot at, not all the time. The problem with the TNG uniforms (and the TOS uniforms, while we're at it) was the complete and utter lack of pockets (other than the mysterious phaser and tricorder holsters that spouted up on away team uniforms).
Away Teams should have a more rugged version of the uniform, but again, unless they're beaming into a known or at least likely hostile situation, there's no need for it to have to function as armour.

Now the TNG engineering crew not having protective suits (which we do see in the TOS movies) or nobody ever wearing body armour even in clear cut combat situations is another matter, but the standard shipboard uniform doesn't have to provide much in the way of protection.

Destructionator XIII wrote:

StarSword wrote:And why is individual expression and sexiness in uniforms in a military organization a good thing?

Starfleet is not a military organization.

They claim that a lot, but it sure has a lot of the aspects of one

If Starfleet pajamas offer poor protection in combat situations and such, how much protection do you think midriff-baring uniforms offer?

Starfleet uniforms are designed for protection and comfort.

The uniforms don't protect against anything except possibly sunburn and judging by all the fidgeting with it the crew does I suspect they aren't particularly comfortable, either

Destructionator XIII wrote:

StarSword wrote:And why is individual expression and sexiness in uniforms in a military organization a good thing?

Starfleet is not a military organization.

Correction: Starfleet does not call itself a military organization. There was an episode of TNG where the entire crew lost their memory, queried the computer for a summary of Enterprise's systems, and came to the conclusion that she was a warship. Darth Wong cites this episode somewhere on the main site (it'd be nice if he had a Google toolbar ) to refute this exact point.

Apparently for trekkies, if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's obviously a hamster.

Destructionator XIII wrote:

StarSword wrote:If Starfleet pajamas offer poor protection in combat situations and such, how much protection do you think midriff-baring uniforms offer?

Starfleet uniforms are designed for protection and comfort.

Comfort, sure. Protection? Hell no. There are any number of instances throughout the canon where armor, haz-mat resistance and the like would have saved lives.

Destructionator XIII wrote:

StarSword wrote:In any realistic military organization, safety is important, not looks.

LOL. Military uniforms are hugely about looks! Soldiers who look good feel better about themselves, get the country to feel better about them, and help recruitment.

Now, in the modern world when working, the looks work with safety, but there's still a lot of times when they are pretty well dressed up, especially in offices.

Well, alright. I'll buy that looks are important for soldiers. But duty uniforms should err on the side of utility, not looks. Dress uniforms can look however you please, since incidents like the beginning of Generations notwithstanding, you typically aren't expected to fight or fix stuff in them.

StarSword wrote: Correction: Starfleet does not call itself a military organization. There was an episode of TNG where the entire crew lost their memory, queried the computer for a summary of Enterprise's systems, and came to the conclusion that she was a warship. Darth Wong cites this episode somewhere on the main site (it'd be nice if he had a Google toolbar ) to refute this exact point.

Here it is.

The Episode wrote: WORF: I have completed a survey of our tactical systems. We are equipped with ten phaser banks, 275 photon torpedoes, and a high capacity shield grid.

MACDUFF: We're a battleship.

WORF: It appears so.

Wong wrote:
Culture: once freed from the baggage of his relentless Federation indoctrination, it's perfectly obvious to Worf (as well as every other member of the bridge crew) that the Enterprise is a warship.

Once their memories were restored, I presume they immediately reverted to their knee-jerk reflex to describe their ship as a peaceful exploration vessel, in spite of its weaponry and classic military mandate to project Federation power, defend Federation territory and deter potential enemies (all in the name of "peaceful exploration", of course).

It's actually the imposter who claims they're a warship. So the E-D has guns, no-one's denied that. It also has a lot of other shit on board. It has a bunch of science labs, doesn't make it a research complex. It has an arboretum, its not a garden ship etc.

I love how Worf taking command in that episode because he was 'obviously' distinct from everyone else because of his sash doesn't get a mention. It turns out judging a book by it's cover is actually stupid and can lead to false conclusions.

Thanks for digging that up for me, Crazedwraith. That wasn't the instance I was thinking of, but it'll work.